Bus Services (No. 2) Bill [HL]

Lord Hampton Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 2nd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, it is Lord Wigley, for the benefit for those who cannot follow the monitors in the House. This is the first time I too have intervened on this Bill. It is sometimes difficult for those of us in small parties to cover all the legislation, but the issues contained in this Bill have been very close to my heart for a long time. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, for his contribution to this, because he has certainly brought a dimension to our understanding.

I am intervening now rather than earlier because, at a meeting held within these premises a week or two ago, we were shown films of the disastrous results when those trying to get on buses, or indeed those who are cycling, have to cope with the layout at bus stops in certain areas. They were really disturbing films; it was frightening just looking at them. We have to make sure that this sort of situation cannot persist.

A moment ago, someone asked, “What if these issues had been going on for 40 years?” They have been going on for longer than 40 years. In 1981, I introduced my own Disabled Persons Bill in the House of Commons, which became the Disabled Persons Act. Part of the Act was to do with the safety of the visually impaired on pavements, with regard to potholes, works on the pavement being undertaken by local authorities, et cetera. The question of disabled people’s safety arose and, even then, it was seen in the context of the social definition of “handicap”, which is the relationship between a disabled person and his or her environment. We may or may not be able to do very much about the basic disability, but we can certainly do something about the environment. Therefore, the responsibility for ensuring that a disability does not become a handicap rests in the hands of those who control the environment. This is classic example of just that.

I am very pleased that amendments have been tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Holmes. I only wish that they could all be amalgamated into one; that may be a challenge for the Government. I hope that we can make progress today in that direction. However, if we cannot, or if only the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, find their way forward, I very much hope that the Government will commit to keeping this under review—and in terms of months, not years—to ensure that the arguments put forward so forcefully by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, are not lost and that we make progress on this issue, to make sure that those who have been suffering do not have to suffer in future.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I am Lord Hampton from the Cross Benches and I will speak to Amendments 36, 38, 39 and 39A. I am genuinely conflicted on them. On the one hand, I would like to see floating bus stops stop immediately; on the other, I believe that the Government would be far more sympathetic to the much more gradual approaches of the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, and the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. I will be interested to hear what the Minister says.

In Committee, I described floating bus stops as democratic: they are dangerous for everyone. Apart from the obvious victims—those with limited sight or mobility—the bus stops are so dangerous because there are two separate pavements that make them look safe. In fact, it is the crossing between the bicycle lane and the pavement that is the problem. No one is designed to look over their shoulder and that is usually where the problem comes from. E-bikes are supposedly capped at 20 miles per hour.

[Lord Burns (CB)]

It is 16 miles per hour.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My noble friend has pointed out the correct figure. I am not sure what the European and Commonwealth speed record for bike-mounted corporate lawyers in Lycra is, but I am sure it is well over 30 miles per hour. When bus passengers are trying to catch a bus—perhaps at night or when it is raining—we are expecting them to cross a cycle path without incident.

As the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, suggested, there is a solution. I catch a bus from London Bridge daily. There is a cycle lane across the bridge which ends to allow buses to pull into the pavement to pick up passengers and drop them off. Cyclists know to go round the bus, bus drivers know how to pull in gently and passengers do not have to cross traffic or a cycle lane. I have seen no incidents or near-misses in my nearly three years of travel from there.

Floating bus stops are a laudable attempt to make life for cyclists safer—but, in fact, they put everyone in danger. They are a huge mistake and legislation to remove them must be in the Bill.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak as a cyclist—one of the first to do so in this debate. I cycle regularly to your Lordships’ House and many other places. I agree that some of the floating bus stops that noble Lords have described, especially around here, are awful—but others are quite good. The problem is that the danger for cyclists going round the back of a floating bus stop has to be measured against the danger of overtaking a bus that is trying to pull in in front of you, because you do not know how many other cars, lorries or buses will overtake you on the outside. I do not have any figures for how many people have been killed or injured by overtaking buses as they pull into bus stops, but it is significant. We need to look at this in a balanced way rather than just saying, “Get rid of floating bus stops by all accounts”.

As noble Lords have said, the floating bus stops on Westminster Bridge are awful, but, leaving the design aside, it does not help that the cyclists cannot go in the cycle lanes there because there are too many tourists. We are talking about too many people wanting to use too much road space, but it does not always work. Coming back the other way by St Thomas’, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned, it is much easier.

For me, crossing from a pavement to a floating bus stop—with a ramp, I hope, as opposed to a step—is not very different from crossing any other road with a cycle lane and finding that the cyclists are not stopping or obeying the light. We need a proper design that works, rather than rushing into a series of different ones that may or may not work.

I have cycled quite often on the continent and I have given examples of what happens in Berlin, which is the most wonderful place to cycle. First, there is a pavement—the footpath—then there is a cycle lane, and then there are one or two traffic lanes. What happens if there is an obstruction on the cycle lane due to a building site or something? The traffic lanes are reduced from two to one to allow the cyclists to travel and overtake safely—ditto with the pedestrians.

The biggest problem—this came up in the Question from the noble Baroness yesterday—is that people do not comply with the law and there is no enforcement, whether that is enforcement for cyclists and scooters, electric or otherwise, or for freight cyclists. I find that cyclists with freight on the back have a particular habit of rushing around and not obeying red lights. I do not know why; most of us obey red lights, but these freight cyclists make a habit of going diagonally across and hoping for the best. One of these days people are going to get killed.

I love the London cycle routes that have been put in over the last 10 years—most of them are very good. However, you can go out the A10 towards Stratford and see the different designs of bus stops, cycle islands and other types of arrangements for the bus to pull over in front of you, and each one is as dangerous as the other—you have got to be very careful.

I cannot support any of these amendments, but I urge the Minister to agree to commission a proper study of how best to align the needs of pedestrians, disabled and blind people, tourists—who do not, I think, understand what “stop” means—cyclists and other road users, and combine it with enforcement. Until we get some enforcement, such as that in Germany, Belgium, Holland and even Paris now, we are going to get more of these debates, which, while very interesting, are not solving the problem.

With the very large increase in the number of cyclists using the road network now—noble Lords may have seen the cycle route along the Thames from here, going eastwards—I feel quite frightened on that lane in rush hour, because there are so many of them going along and they are going quite fast. We can debate whether it is good for a cyclist to be frightened of other cyclists. Things will change, but we have got to be very careful before we start moving infrastructure without being quite clear as to the benefits to each class—if we can call it a class—of user, to make sure that we get it right and that we do not get, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, the conflict from safety. Safety is the be-all and end-all, and it must start there, but enforcement is one of the most important things.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 58 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Woodley, and I apologise that I was not able to speak at Second Reading.

The Government have an admirable ambition to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. I believe this amendment would aid the Government to achieve this by ensuring bus operators recorded and shared all data about assaults and violent behaviour that had taken place on their buses. I focus my remarks particularly on women, as the West Yorkshire Combined Authority conducted a survey which found that only 41% of women feel safe catching a bus at night, compared to 68% of men. This fear means that women are unfairly forced to pay for taxis to be reassured of their own safety. Women have even spoken of questioning whether their clothes are suitable so as not to attract unwanted attention when using the bus service. No woman should have to be fearful for her safety on public transport. The noble Lord’s amendment would go some way to encouraging bus operators to tackle the issue of violence and harassment, and, importantly, give people the confidence to come forward and report incidents on the bus.

In 2021, TfL launched a campaign that sought to end the normalisation of abuse on its services by encouraging people to text the British Transport Police. It stated that it wanted to make it clear

“that it is never acceptable and that the strongest possible action will always be taken”.

We cannot continue with a situation where more than half of women under 35—including me—decide to drive or get a taxi instead of getting a bus or train because they fear crime or harassment. The bus service should be available for all to use safely and free from fear. I fully commend the noble Lord, Lord Woodley, on his amendment and I hope the Government will back it.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 57 and return to the topic of safety. I am indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, both for suggesting the solution in Committee and for adding his name to my amendment. In Committee, the noble Lord suggested that buses could adopt a “Vision Zero” accident policy, just like the building industry. It did not occur to me until afterwards that this is exactly what Transport for London does.

I thank the Minister and his Bill team for the extremely collegiate way in which they have worked, and for the letter that he sent to noble Peers addressing some of my concerns from Committee. I thank him for guidance on the use of NEBOSH and IOSH, the updating of STATS19 in SCRICS, and the publication of clear safety data by the DVSA. The guidance will make this a safer Bill.

On my plans for this amendment to implement a Vision Zero programme, I was told that it could not be in the Bill because it was more of an idea than a concrete law—it was a vision. I consulted an external constitutional expert who said that it would work very well in the Bill because the meaning of the amendment is clear. The Government say the implications are vague. If the implications are vague, then it could apply whether it is in guidance or in the Bill.

The Mayor of London has committed to a Vision Zero action plan for accidents and lists the obligations—safe speed, safe streets, safe vehicles, et cetera—and what they entail. The mayor’s example and elaboration of details demonstrate that the principles can be given concrete application and should be in the Bill.

This Bill could leave this House a considerably safer Bill than it arrived. With these changes, it could save lives. I cannot see any reason why my amendment could not be in the Bill, and I appear to have considerable support in this. I urge the Government to accept the amendment and warn them that I intend to test the opinion of the House.

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I would like to add my support to Amendment 58, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Woodley. I am sorry that I did not spot that it was down in time to add my name to it. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble Baroness Owen have set out the case for it eloquently, particularly the fear of vulnerable people, women and older people in using buses at night, when there are often fewer passengers. I also think it is relevant not only to passengers on the buses but to members of staff, particularly drivers, who we know are at high risk, sadly, of verbal and physical harassment and deserve to be protected too.

I spend quite a lot of my time in this House talking about online violence against women and girls, but the rules we have talked about there should apply in the physical world as well. One of those requirements is that we should collect data to know exactly the scale of the problem. Without the necessary data, there is, as we know, a risk of under-reporting. Bus companies and the Department for Transport would then be at great risk of saying that there is not a problem, although we all know it exists, particularly those who use buses regularly. I hope that the Minister will accept this straightforward and simple amendment about encouraging the collection of data.

Finally, I am reminded of the Question I asked the Minister in this House on 24 February about violence against women and girls on trains. He gave a typically generous and fulsome Answer in which he agreed that this was both an issue and something the Government wanted to take very seriously. He talked about regular meetings between Department for Transport Ministers and Home Office Ministers, all to fulfil the Government’s stated ambition of cutting violence against women and girls. While the House has the opportunity to take this measure and call for data to be collected, I hope the Minister and the Government will be able to accept this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hampton]

57: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause—
“Implementing a Vision Zero programmeThe Secretary of State must work with bus service providers, trade unions, professional bodies, and appropriate training institutions to implement a Vision Zero programme within the bus sector, modelled on best practice in the industry, with the aim of eliminating serious injuries in the course of bus operations.” Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to collaborate with key stakeholders to implement a Vision Zero programme for buses, aiming to eliminate serious injuries during bus operations and improve overall safety within the sector.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister made me very excited when he talked about the Government being deeply sympathetic to improvements to safety and Vision Zero increasingly being adopted by local authorities. He then gave the can an almighty kick down the road. Therefore, I beg to test the opinion of the House.