Select Committee Reports: Government Responses

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly understand the frustration expressed by my noble friend with the Government’s response on this occasion. I am pleased that the Minister for the Constitution apologised, quite rightly, to the committee for the prolonged delay. On that particular report, because it covered and inquired into the inner workings of coalition government, I do not think it is that surprising that the Government wanted to give it careful consideration before responding. However, I disagree with my noble friend’s description of the Government’s response. I know that the committee was disappointed with some specific aspects and has written further to the Minister concerned, but I think that the report, as a whole, was adequate. Certainly the delay that was experienced in the context of this report is not systemic in the Government’s responses to Select Committee reports.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, is not any response to a coalition government fairly simple: that we do not want another one?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I think we are all going to fight the election to win.

House of Lords: Procedures and Practices

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord is being unusually flattering of my reputation.

The noble Lord referred to aligning the sittings of this House with those of the House of Commons. Why does the noble Lord not go to his colleagues in the House of Commons and tell them that they should align their sittings with us? That would be a distinct improvement. But there is no need for us to sit at exactly the same time as the House of Commons. Sometimes the greatest possible national recognition of the House of Lords is when the House of Commons is not sitting—and you have only to look at some recent examples, such as when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, had his debate on assisted dying, to see that it was the House of Lords that ran the headlines. So that is a useful thing.

Of course, it is useful from time to time to have debates in this House on procedure. However, the noble Lord seems completely to misunderstand the role of the powerful and important Procedure Committee and how it works in practice. I am almost ashamed to admit it, but I was a member of the Procedure Committee from 1994 until 2013. For all those years I went along to every meeting. I probably sat longer in that committee than any person alive today. There was a movable feast of people who came and went, including Front-Benchers, Back-Benchers and Cross-Benchers alike. The point is that it is open to any Peer to write to the Chairman of Committees, the Leader of the House or the Clerk for issues to be raised in the Procedure Committee—and they are.

I am entirely in favour of progress and improving how we work. The fact that we do get change demonstrates how effective it is. When the Procedure Committee comes to a decision, it has to be endorsed by the House. There have been many occasions when amendments have been proposed and sometimes even agreed when decisions have had to be taken back by the Chairman of Committees. That is part of the general debate that we have. The noble Lord does not like some of the rules and regulations that we have, but he has every right to propose a change.

I am not in favour of having yet another committee. Already in this Parliament we have had a Leader’s Group, which made some substantial changes—and that has happened over the course of the past few years. The noble Lord said that we had plenty of time, yet it was the Labour Party, when it was in Government, that put the automatic cut-off at 10 o’clock at night. When I first joined this House, Back-Benchers were able to go on and on and on into the night and into the small hours.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, can have it both ways. He has accurately explained the fact that, ultimately, the control of procedure is with the House as a whole. Now he is saying that it is the Labour Party, which has never had more than 30% of the votes here, that has been imposing draconian rules. Which is it?

[Lord Strathclyde]

That was cleverly done, but what I meant was that it was a proposal by the then Labour Government that carried the day. I go back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. It was a decision of the House to limit the amount of time that we had available, and it is an experiment that worked well and it has now become permanent. Another was the introduction of Grand Committees. We have far more hours now to spend debating issues—and, unusually, compared with virtually any other legislative Assembly, every Member of this House has an absolute right to put any amendment down to any piece of legislation and must be replied to by a Member of the Government. That is an enormous strength, which is not shared by our colleagues next door.

What is the House of Lords for? We are here to revise, to scrutinise, to debate and to investigate. Actually, I think we do that job remarkably well. We should not put too much pressure on the role of the Government. Every aspect of the work that we do in this House is, ultimately, agreed through the usual channels. That is not always an easy relationship to manage, but in the end it is about the language of priorities between Government and Opposition.

As I have said before, I believe that it would be a great mistake to give new powers to a Speaker of the House of Lords. It would, first of all, be an admission that we were unable to rule ourselves—and you have only to look at the House of Commons to see what happens when you have a Speaker. If I may say so, with due respect to the noble Lord’s eminent career, it is very often former Members of the House of Commons who believe that this Chamber is a House of Commons 20 years older. It is not; it is an entirely different Chamber. Our procedures work extremely effectively and can be changed through the Procedure Committee.

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, inevitably, we are towards the end of a debate—perhaps the end of a process as far as this Parliament is concerned. I just want to thank the two people who have been most involved in this Bill: Dan Byles, a new Member in the House of Commons and, of course, and the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who I suppose we would have to say is probably now in the middle phase of his parliamentary career. They have combined so effectively to give us the Bill that we have today. It is a Bill which is sensible, straightforward and focused. I am therefore quite surprised that it is highly likely to find its way onto the statute book.

I repeat my congratulations to my noble and very good friend Lord Grenfell. He has added an additional service today, because, as well as the value of his speech, he has answered a number of the points made about the process that we should adopt when someone leaves this House, because there I rest my case. We do not need any elaborate procedure. We simply need a mechanism which started in the Commons prior to the 2010 election, when Chris Mullin adopted the practice of a valedictory speech just prior to retirement. It worked very well there. It has been copied, although it does not have to be. We simply will not improve on that as a mechanism. I suggest to the House that we do not want anything more elaborate than that.

I remember that when I left the other Chamber in 1979 there was no mechanism to recognise my departure other than cheering in the crowds at the count in my constituency from my political opponents, who did not seem too distraught at my departure from the Commons. I think we should leave it at that point.

As there is little more that I want to say about the Bill, which I support, and as we are not too far from the end of this Parliament and this will almost certainly be the last House of Lords reform Bill in this Parliament, I would like to use my few moments to consider what we have learnt about the process of Lords reform and what lessons it might offer for the future.

It can be called simply a tale of two Bills. We had the Government’s Bill, which was introduced soon after the start of this Parliament, and we have the Bill before us today. The contrast could not be greater on a whole range of bases. The first was a government Bill. It had all the massive advantages of being a government Bill. Numerous documents were associated with it, no doubt expensively produced. I have them all in my file on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill. It had the Government’s publicity machine behind it. It was supported by the leaders of all three parties—which always makes you wonder whether we should look at something a bit more carefully. Also, predictably, it was led—I will try to keep this as neutral as I can—evangelically by Mr Nick Clegg, who, as I recall, pointed out at the beginning of this Parliament that this was to be a Parliament which, in terms of constitutional reform, would be on a par with the 1832 constitutionally reforming Parliament of the early part of the last but one century.

For all that, we know exactly what happened to the Bill, whereas the Bill we are considering now was introduced by a private Member—a new Member, as I mentioned. He was not even number one in the ballot but number five. There was very restricted time to get the Bill through. We all know what has happened to the two Bills—I hope that I am not being premature in saying this. One Bill, utterly predictably, as warned time and again by many people who are here in the House today, ran into the sand and ended in ignominy. The other is soon, I hope, to become an established part—albeit a small one—of the constitutional arrangements of this country.

As I suggested, there are some very simple lessons that need to be learnt from that experience. The overwhelming one, as was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Grenfell earlier, is that the lesson from the past 100 years could not be clearer: if you want to reform the second Chamber, you need to focus on a narrow problem to which you provide the solution, and you need clear parliamentary support. The 1911 Bill was about stopping the Lords from writing the Budget—simple, common-sense, straightforward and now part of the constitution. There was the 1958 Bill introducing life Peers—not uncontroversial but with a pretty simple, straightforward objective. There was the 1999 Bill largely to remove the hereditary principle from our legislature—again simple, straightforward, and with a parliamentary majority to back it up. That is the model for constitutional reform, and one that I hope we have all learnt, because what we need for the future is clear Commons support and a simple, straightforward objective.

I will conclude by doing something which I have found to be an almost entirely fruitless activity in the past, which is to give advice to party leaders. It is advice in connection with the manifestos which will shortly be being drafted by large brains in all three parties. It is simply this. If you are to approach constitutional reform in the way of House of Lords reform, as my noble friend Lord Howarth said, please do not try for a Bill that is a grandiose, all-singing, all-dancing solution to all problems. It will not work. Should anyone do that—I do not care which party it is, or which combination of parties—I can speak only for myself, but I look round and think that there may be quite a few others who will create considerable problems. Please do not look in the crystal ball when you can read the history books. Those kinds of proposal do not work. They allow people to grandstand but they achieve nothing.

I end with this plea, not just to the Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, but also to my noble friend Lord Hunt, who will be winding up from our Front Bench. I do not expect them to stand up now and say that a great Lords reform Bill is not going to happen, but I appeal to them to undertake in their winding-up speeches to pass on to their leaders, or whoever draws up their party manifesto, that the settled view of the majority of people in this House, without self-interest at stake—if it takes five or six or seven years, we will all be here, so it is ridiculous to say that it is all about self-interest—on the basis of experience, not least of the experience in this Parliament, is that you can approach it by all means, but approach it on the basis of a clearly defined problem that you are trying to solve. Keep it narrow, make sure you have parliamentary support and you may get something in your manifesto that is not just a wish list but a practical solution to a constitutional challenge.

European Council

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the points made by my noble friend about the composition of the contact group. When my right honourable friend the Prime Minister talked to President Putin yesterday, he made the point that the precise format and composition of those talks is slightly less important than getting them going. I am not able to give a precise answer as to who the participants might be because that would clearly be part of any negotiation and discussion that would need to take place. However, the points made by my noble friend will clearly be taken on board and listened to by the Foreign Office as we go forward, as will her other point about the transitional agreement and so on. At the moment, all these areas are in a state of flux, so I am clearly not able to answer with the kind of precision that my noble friend or others might request. However, at the moment our priority is certainly to seek to bring about a de-escalation. The best way of doing that, whatever its precise form, is to find a way of the Russians and Ukrainians talking directly to each other.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, of course it is right that the Government should say that we cannot have constitutional change, and certainly not territorial change in the boundaries of any country, under duress or the threat of force. However, I would like some clarification on the Government’s position in respect of a referendum in Crimea. Again, the Government are quite right to say that the logistics of any referendum make it impossible or unrealistic for it to take place within a week or so. However, if it becomes the settled view of the people of Crimea or indeed any other country that the present constitutional arrangements are not to their liking, then surely it cannot be the Government’s permanent position that we will, as a matter of principle, say that we will reject that in all circumstances and at any cost.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Whatever form a referendum might take, it needs to be consistent with what is set out in the constitution of Ukraine itself. The simple point about the proposals for the referendum in Crimea is that it is utterly inconsistent with the Ukrainian constitution, which should control it—apart from some of the other practical points to which the noble Lord has already referred, including that when OSCE monitors and others have turned up to try to see the situation, they have been turned back at gunpoint.

Israel and Palestine

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, I agree with the noble Lord that it has been a painful process for the Government of Israel. Indeed, reports have suggested that up to 80% of the Israeli population were against such releases. As I have already said, it was a courageous decision on behalf of Prime Minister Netanyahu. On the second point, I think the timetable has been set. Secretary of State Kerry has been clear. We, and the whole international community, must work together to ensure that we reach successful conclusions to these talks by April next year.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, many Ministers—

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Grocott]

I have started. There is plenty of time.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

There is plenty of time. If we can go to the Cross Benches then we will come to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I have already said, the UK Government’s position is quite clear. These settlements on Palestinian land beyond the 1967 borders—be they in East Jerusalem or in the West Bank—are illegal.

[Lord Grocott]

In the light of the Minister’s remarks, it seems to me that there is a coalition now about these settlements which includes the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, me and the Government. If that is the case, perhaps he can express the view that seems to me to be crystal clear. We are not in a static situation as we prepare for the peace talks that have been longed for for many years as the Israeli Government are quite deliberately making the situation more difficult by the continual expansion of the settlements. Quite apart from that being in clear violation of international law, is it not also crystal clear that the longed-for, two-state solution, to which nearly everyone at least states themselves to be committed, becomes more and more difficult to achieve so long as that settlement activity continues?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I can do little more than reiterate what Secretary Kerry and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary have said. Yes, the window of opportunity is fast closing. That point has been made by my noble friend Lady Warsi from this Dispatch Box as well. We are all working towards finding a two-state solution which guarantees the security of the State of Israel from rocket attacks but also guarantees a viable, economically independent Palestinian state. These peoples share a history but we have to look at the reality on the ground today, and we call upon both sides to recognise that they also share a future—one of peace and economic prosperity.

Energy: Long-term Supply

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

I refer back to the measures that we are taking through the Energy Bill. One of those measures is about looking at demand in energy usage. We of course want to ensure that not only are we generating more energy but that we are encouraging businesses and people to reduce energy use.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest listed in the parliamentary register, and ask this question.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, forgive me. It is Labour’s turn for a question.

[Lord Grocott]

Given that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have frequently expressed concern about the influence of the left and, as they describe it, “Marxist policies” in Britain, what would be their attitude of the involvement of a communist country in our energy supply industry?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, luckily, the UK is the most open economy in the world and therefore welcomes inward investment, including in the nuclear sector and renewable energy, from everyone in the world.

House of Lords: Oral Questions

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

Does the Leader subscribe to the basic rule of Oral Questions that you should never ask a question unless you know the answer?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That is a very good principle in life, my Lords.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I was just sitting here quietly, looking forward to the conclusion of the debate without, I hoped, a Division, but hoping that if there was a Division it would result in a resounding majority for the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and my noble friend’s amendment. However, the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, make it impossible for me to remain in my seat because I think he suggested that the previous Labour Government paid no attention to what he now considers a very sensible proposal that the membership of this House should reflect the result of the previous general election.

I remind the noble Lord of the facts. I know that facts can sometimes ruin arguments, but the facts are as follows. He may recall that the 1997 general election resulted in a Labour majority of something over 150 in the House of Commons. I will be honest enough to say that I almost wish I had thought of this at the time. It would have been extremely tempting to argue that the membership of this House should reflect the huge majority that the Labour Party had in 1997, and on which it was re-elected, with an almost identical majority, in 2001. The noble Lord can do the maths rather than me, but there would have needed to be a colossal addition to the Labour Benches in this House to reflect that.

I ask for a little indulgence and sympathy towards my dear old party from all quarters of this House. The Labour Party eventually became the biggest party in this House in 2005: that is, eight years after we received a colossal overall majority in two successive general elections. We have been the biggest party in this House for eight years out of the 110 years of our existence as a political party. I do not think it is being greedy to say that eight years is not too bad. If the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, did argue for a huge influx of Labour Peers at that stage, it was obviously on one of those days when I did not attend the House. I simply put it to him that he ought to reflect on that.

Perhaps one other matter on which the noble Lord should reflect, in this of all weeks, is the election in Italy, a country which adheres to the constitutional principle that the second chamber should be elected and have pretty well equal powers to those of the first chamber. He should reflect for a moment on whether that is a good idea to incorporate here. While he is about it, he should reflect on whether the proportional representation system of election to the Italian Parliament provides stability and security for a Government. One or two of the noble Lord’s theories have been road tested this week and I could not forbear but to refer to them. On that note, I will sit down.

[Baroness Hayman]

My Lords, tempted as I am, I will not follow the reflections of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on second chambers across the world. During my time as Lord Speaker, I developed a very good 45-minute lecture on second chambers around the world, but I suspect that the House would not appreciate hearing it today.

Like others, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for giving us the opportunity to consider this issue today and, if I may say so, even more grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for bringing a proposition before the House that I think is in many ways more acceptable than the original one of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, given the interpretation that people could put on that and the suggestion of constitutional impropriety or of being unwelcoming to new Members. I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Laming, had to say on that. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Steel, I was deeply depressed when I read the Written Answer that appeared in Hansard on 15 February. While it is understandable that the Government should feel frustrated at the loss of their proposals for an elected House, those proposals were indeed lost. The reality of the situation is that we have two and a half years until the next general election and some time beyond that during which this House will continue to be an appointed House. It is constitutionally and politically irresponsible not to take at least some modest measures now to take us forward.

I am not a supporter of an elected House. I am a supporter of a rather radical reform of this House which is not encompassed in what is before us today, or the Bill before another place. However, I have to accept that that reality cannot be achieved at the moment. The elements in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, provide a minimum basis for us to take forward some of the changes that are need in your Lordships’ House. It will not radically reduce the numbers but, having been deeply involved with these issues for some time, I believe that not having a legislative base on which to build the House’s consensus—as I hope it will develop—on retirement is a terrible impediment to going forward. One thinks of resources as being about money and people, but as a Minister I learnt that, in politics, resources are also about legislative time. Allowing retirement to be a reality—in future “life” not meaning “for life”—is enormously important.

The issue of those with criminal convictions, though very small, narrow and, of course, not retrospective—how could it ever be?—is important for this House. It is also an important basis for our own disciplinary action in future. Even this minimalist legislative change is enormously important and would give us the basis on which to go forward. The other day, I asked the Leader whether he would do the service to this House that could be done by allowing us that minimum basis. I am very encouraged by the fact that there are those who, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath—though unfortunately not the noble Lord, Lord Tyler—believe in an elected House but still recognise the problems and the reality of the years ahead. Noble Lords who want to participate in the business of the House sometimes cannot because they cannot be within the Chamber. That is not a proper way for us to continue. We want to welcome new Members and if we are to do so, we also have to find a way in which membership of this House can cease. It is our responsibility to try and do that. We will not achieve it overnight. There will not be immediate unanimity about the grounds for retirement and how we go forward. However, since 1999 we have had constant reasons why proposed changes were not exactly right. We have had constant reversals to proposals for incremental change on the basis that we were going to have all-singing, all-dancing proposals for election. It has got us into terrible trouble over numbers and over financial support for Members. Those who were arguing that we needed to change that system sooner were told, “Don’t worry because very soon we will have a Bill, we will have elections, we will have a salaried House”.

It is not responsible to continue to do nothing. We have to make a start somewhere and I hope very much that the House will today make that view very clear.

Business of the House

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am sure that the Chairman of Committees will have heard that point. More generally on this debate, my noble friend says that he does not want to delay the House. We will be discussing it next week and I am sure that there will be plenty of opportunity to consider this and all the other points that noble Lords want to raise then.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, would we not have a more informed debate if a Government Minister was able to answer a question that I and, I am sure, others have repeatedly put in Written Questions and elsewhere: what precisely in terms of numbers is the coalition commitment to establishing the party strengths in this House on the basis of the last general result? What does that mean in terms of numbers for each of the three parties? Although the Leader of the House dealt with the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, very effectively in parliamentary terms, he did not actually answer the question, which was a valid one. If the Government are committed to their repeatedly stated objective of reflecting the last election results, surely we are entitled to know precisely in numbers, including the total number, what that would occasion. If we do not know the numbers, it is very difficult to have an informed debate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, perhaps I could just add that I have tabled a whole series of Questions to the Chairman of Committees on this matter of availability of resources to the House against the number of Peers to be created. Perhaps the Government might take note of the answers that I am receiving, because clearly the figures do not add up.

Electoral Registration Data Schemes (No. 2) Order 2012

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I assure the noble Baroness that the Bill will not progress without the full scrutiny of this House. As I said earlier, the Government have not reached final conclusions on their deliberations but I am glad that there has been this short pause. As the noble Baroness has just informed the House, the pause has given an opportunity to those most eminent Members of this House to explore with the clerks whether the amendment can be made admissible. That is entirely the right approach. It would be strange and unfortunate if we were to break the precedence of many years and for this House to accept an amendment decreed as inadmissible by the clerks.

Perhaps I may be the first to welcome back the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. It is a pleasure to see her in her place and to hear her speak with such eloquence once more. It is one of the great advantages of this House that those with pretty much an entitlement to sit in this House are former Speakers of the House of Commons. With the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, we have the best examples of those who have sat in that illustrious Chair in another place, both giving their views on the advice they received and what they did with it when they were Speakers of that House.

There is also another wonderful thing, which is that the House of Commons is the House of Commons, the House of Lords is the House of Lords, and this House has developed different processes and procedures. While we are a self-regulating House, it is not a self-regulation of anarchy; it is self-regulating within the rules. Perhaps I may conclude by repeating once again what the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, said on a very similar occasion a few years ago, when she was Leader of this House. She said:

“It is a consequence of our procedures that the House has collective responsibility for observing these procedures and that all Members of your Lordships’ House therefore need to co-operate to see that procedures are observed”.—[Official Report, 20/4/99; col. 1112.]

She was quite right.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I have been listening carefully to the Leader of the House and he has not clearly informed the House of the position in relation to this Bill. It is not unheard of for Bills to be abandoned during the course of a normal parliamentary Session; indeed, I am delighted that the Government decided to abandon the House of Lords Reform Bill. When they abandon a Bill, they normally make a clear statement to the House on their intentions. However, at the moment, we are getting very mixed messages from the Government. Whenever his counterpart, the Leader of the House of Commons is asked about the position in relation to this Bill, he states clearly—and procedurally he is right—that it is now a matter for the House of Lords. Thereby, the Bill is within our ownership and the Commons can do nothing about it until we have considered it and taken it through its proper stages. The noble Lord said during his reply that there was to be a “short pause”. The House is entitled to have at least some indication from the Leader of what he means by that.

[Lord Strathclyde]

First of all, to avoid any doubt because it is important to be clear, I can confirm that the Bill has not been abandoned; it has been postponed. When the Government have come to a conclusion that it should continue, the House will be informed in the normal way, either on the Order Paper or in an edition of Forthcoming Business. However, I can lend some comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. Although the current edition does not propose a date for the Bill, it includes plenty of other government business that we can get on with.