Lord Grocott
Main Page: Lord Grocott (Labour - Life peer)Procedure and Privileges Committee
Lord Grocott Excerpts
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I thank the Senior Deputy Speaker for the courteous way in which he has dealt with these issues, both formally and informally. I am most grateful to him for discussing them with me.
First, I emphasise that I think it is crucial that we have an efficient and fair system to allow our remote disabled colleagues to participate as much as possible. Secondly, I approve the extension of their ability to participate. The only issue before us is who calls them to speak, and that brings me to my amendment.
Let me say what my amendment is not. It is not a party-political issue in any way whatever. It does not in any way compare us with the other place because the other place does not have an arrangement to allow disabled people to participate remotely; in fact, yet again the other place is not as enlightened as we are in this House, just as we were first with televising the House and on many other innovations. And it is not a beauty contest; I think we would lose right away if it were.
So why am I proposing this amendment? First, the chair of all the meetings I have ever been to has been the moderator of the debate. That applies to committees of this House, where the chair calls people to speak. Secondly, the Leader of the House has many other responsibilities. Even today, just before this debate, she dealt with an important Covid Statement, and later today, she will give a Statement on the crucial issue of Ukraine. She is a member of the Cabinet, and has many other responsibilities. Why should we require her to do this, when we have a perfectly competent Lord Speaker and, if I may say so, an equally competent Senior Deputy Speaker, as well as many other Deputy Speakers who stand in and carry out that responsibility very well? In fact, we saw a perfect example of this earlier today, when my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall called the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to speak remotely on the previous Statement. She did it with skill and effectiveness. Among everything else, with due respect to the Senior Deputy Speaker, she proved that the configuration of the House, which was his main argument, is not a problem. She was able to deal with it perfectly.
I would be interested to hear colleagues’ views before I decide whether or not to press this amendment, but I now have the pleasure of moving what I think is just a simple but very important amendment.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is going to speak at this point. If he is not, I am always happy to say a few words.
Lord Cormack (Con)
I am grateful to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. I was expecting my amendment to be called from the Woolsack, but I am glad to speak now. I begin in a similar vein to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because another friend—although he is no longer technically my noble friend—the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, the Senior Deputy Speaker, is the very embodiment of courtesy. None of us could ever criticise him for not listening carefully and seeking to understand what we are saying.
There is a danger that we will make a permanent change to our procedures this afternoon. When electronic voting and pass reading were first talked of, it was the height of the Covid crisis and this was another way of helping. The original proposal was that, at a suitable moment, we would all vote within the Parliamentary Estate and pass readers would be installed, both in the Lobbies and the Prince’s Chamber. There was even talk of having readers in the Royal Gallery. One understands why: it would have enabled people to keep socially distancing and still discharge their duties where they should be discharged—on the premises.
There have been a few changes since then, not the least of which was announced this afternoon. When we had that debate on 25 October, my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who sits in front of me now and I hope will contribute to this debate, made one of the most perceptive interventions when he talked about the crucial role of the teller. That, for some reason, had been ignored by the committee. The noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, kindly did not press the Motion that afternoon. He withdrew it and said he would take it back to the committee, and he acknowledged the force of the argument on tellers. Now he comes back with a revised version.
First, this is not something to deal with Covid anymore. It is a permanent change to our voting arrangements. He says it will be reviewed, and I hope it will, carefully and thoroughly, taking account of the views of Members in all parts. I believe we owe that to those who have joined your Lordships’ House in the last two years who, until September last year, had no idea what a proper Question Time is like. Many of them, for entirely understandable reasons, liked the idea of the printed Question list, which we had. I was always against it, as were many noble Lords who have been here for a long time, but I have lost count of the number of newer colleagues who have come to me, since we reverted to spontaneity, and said, “You and your friends were right—it is better this way”. I would like those newer Members, who have no experience of the old system of voting, to experience it, because then they will have something to measure against. That would be entirely fair and reasonable.
I would like us to go back to voting as it was at the beginning of March, two years ago. Noble Lords who were there then know the system. There is a certain conviviality in the Division Lobbies, which can be positively helpful. Of course, we are talking of voting in the Division Lobbies; this is no longer a Covid-related change.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, this is not the first time we have had this debate and it will not surprise many people that I agree wholeheartedly with the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Foulkes. I think it is time, maybe at the conclusion of this debate, to test the opinion of the House.
I want to put this in some kind of context. It has been 17 years since we established the position of Lord Speaker. It was highly controversial. The main concern expressed by those opposed to the inauguration of a Lord Speaker was that they feared we would end up with a Speaker like in the House of Commons. I had a great deal of sympathy for that view, but surely we can reach the conclusion now, after 17 years, that there has been at no stage the slightest evidence of the Lord Speaker here becoming like a Speaker in the House of Commons—adjudicating on points of order and the rest. We can say categorically that the Lord Speaker’s position in this House is not like the Speaker in the House of Commons and there is no remote possibility of that happening. I hope we can put that particular scare story to bed.
I also point out that, slowly over these 17 years—things do not happen quickly in this place—there has been a movement of responsibilities towards the Lord Speaker. Every one of those movements, small and slight at each stage, has seemed to be absolute common sense as soon as they have been introduced. The most recent, of course, is that the Lord Speaker now introduces the business, as opposed to the clerk sitting at the Table—for example, announcing when a Statement is to be made and what it is about. They were all common-sense proposals that the person in the chair does those things.
Does anyone listening to this short debate think that the sensible thing now would be to move the clock backwards and reinstate those responsibilities wherever they existed before—in part with the Clerk at the Table and, more significantly, with the Leader of the House? I do not think anyone does, and I am certain that, if we made the very small change that my noble friend is proposing, we would think it was common sense to go back to it after an experimental period of six months. So I hope the House will make a decision on this. I always try to understand opposing views, but I really cannot see a case for it remaining with the Leader of the House—not least, of course, because the Lord Speaker is the same person there every day. There is continuity, predictability and common sense.
I will speak briefly on the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. Again, I am very inclined to support the case he makes, for this reason: I think these pass readers are, in a sense, a solution to a problem that does not exist. I was a Teller on numerous votes over a long period when there were several ties—we had lots of excitement in those days; the tension built up and all the rest of it—and there were lots of Divisions won or lost by two, three or four votes. I cannot remember a single instance when there was a problem with the telling system that existed and we needed a recount. It worked perfectly well. The Senior Deputy Speaker said that we must move with the times—well, by all means, although we tend not to do that with any great haste normally in this Chamber. The truth is, there is no problem to be resolved—unless he can demonstrate it to me. If people can do it well enough, do we really need a machine to do the job? I am not convinced, and I await the rest of the debate to see whether I can be.
I will make one final brief plea to the Senior Deputy Speaker. He said on 13 July that the question of the sitting hours of this House would be reviewed by his committee. I would like an update, please, on how that review is going and when he expects to bring a suggestion to the House.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend Lord Gardiner. He listened to the debate, and he and his committee have come back with a perfectly reasonable solution. The issue that concerned us most was the role of the Tellers, and that has been sorted.
Having said that, I am concerned about the constitutional position. We get a Writ of Summons which entitles us to come here and vote. During the period of the previous Clerk of the Parliaments, when we could not get in here because of people gluing themselves to the pavement, blocking the road and everything else, I went to see him and said, “What has happened to the Sessional Orders that we pass every year?” He said, “They’re really decorative. They don’t really matter”. They matter immensely, because it means that a mob could actually prevent us voting and, more importantly, people in the other place voting—
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)
My Lords, this has certainly been an intriguing debate, and I am not surprised. One of the things that I consider is that it is impossible to satisfy all your Lordships. I could go from A to Z with the perfectly respectable arguments that have been deployed, but I think the best I can seek to do is try to answer some of the conundrums raised, as I am indeed in the House’s hands.
First, I want to be very clear that I stand here on behalf of your Lordships. There was a question about the administration. The undoubtedly important and essential work it does on our behalf is absolutely clear to me, but it is this House, this Chamber and the work of your Lordships that is the raison d’être for us all. I am very clear that these proposals are all designed to help your Lordships flourish; that is their purpose.
I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that we want a fair system. One of the points raised relates to the intricacies of this. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, can of course—as do all exemplary Deputy Speakers—get up when the virtual eligible speaker is the very first Member to contribute and always the very first; it is a very easy option to get up at the very beginning and call whoever it may be. What this part of the report before your Lordships seeks to do is precisely to bring Statements and Urgent Questions in line with other aspects where the eligible Member is not automatically the first Peer to have the opportunity to contribute. I have to say that some eligible Peers have expressed to me that they feel uncomfortable being asked to be the first noble Lord to speak. In the intricacy of the proposal before your Lordships, that is precisely the point.
I want also to say something about permanent change. I understand there has been a good knockabout in terms of the speed with which your Lordships and this House propose change. I do not see that what is proposed here is always about permanent change. I said in my opening remarks, particularly in the case of the pass readers, that the committee has a responsibility, as with everything, to keep these matters under review. If this does not work and if there are problems, I will be the very first to want to come back to your Lordships and say, with the deepest of regret, that I do not think this is working for the House. I put that on record, as I did at the beginning, and say it now. I can give the absolute assurance that the committee will be looking to see how this prospers if your Lordships wish it to proceed. I should also say, just to correct the record, that proxy voting in the other place has not operated since pass readers were introduced there.
I very much hope that noble Lords who have arrived here will see the House pre pandemic in so many respects in terms of that dynamic and that discourse. We are proposing changing an iPad to a pass reader. We were giving our names to a clerk with an iPad, but one of the problems that the clerks have all mentioned to me privately is that, in their experience, there has been what I would call “rider error” with the iPads. Indeed, when I was a Whip I could not work out how one of my flock who I knew simply never came to the House suddenly appeared. It was because there had been rider error in terms of the Division. Lord Hayhoe and Baroness Heyhoe Flint both had a hey-ho about them, but they did not have anything else in common. All of these things relate to the accuracy and the speed that the noble Lord referred to.
I think we have all done remarkably in terms of using PeerHub and all of those matters. I am not a great machine man myself, but nearly 30 Peers will often appear in the Table Office having difficulty in using PeerHub. That is one of the reasons why many Divisions actually take longer and why the result does take and has taken longer. So all our proposals have been designed to create accuracy and speed; it has not been about cost. It has been about seeing whether there are ways in which we can assist the House. That is the background to it.
On the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and other noble Lords spoke about—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, raised this—my recall is that on 13 July last year the House divided on the matter of the regulation by the Woolsack. The House voted 376 to 112. That is not 17 years. As I say, we have had this discourse on three occasions in this Session. I do not think that that suggests that these matters have not been aired and put to your Lordships.
The other point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was that the same person would be on the Woolsack. Well, we all know that we have a roster. The Lord Speaker will not be on the Woolsack for all Statements—quite rightly when one has exemplary Deputy Speakers. There was a slight suggestion that I used a strange word in mentioning the “configuration” of the usual channels. However, compared with the other place we have a very isolated person on the Woolsack and part of the dynamic is ensuring going round the House in this self-regulation. It is the dynamic of, as we have all noticed, noble Lords and Baronesses in this part of the House. So when I use the word “configuration” I mean that none of these things are impossible, but they are some of the practical issues that I raised in my opening remarks but perhaps did not explain so carefully or fully.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
As a matter of fact, the amendment my noble friend Lord Foulkes put forward relates to the circumstances during Oral Questions, in that the job can be done from the Woolsack and not the Front Bench. I think I was right, rather than the noble Lord, in referring to the fact that the Lord Speaker is there during that period, with very rare exceptions, and not a Deputy Speaker.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)
My Lords, we have before us the consideration of Statements. Yes, the noble Lord refers in his amendment to Questions as well, but the change in the report relates to Statements. That is included in the amendment. My point is that, although the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said that it is the same person, that is not strictly the case—whoever is on the Woolsack will have the task of deciding when to call the eligible Member and from which part of the House in the rotation of taking turns. That is why, although I am in the hands of the House, I think it is more intricate than saying that the Lord Speaker or whoever is on the Woolsack could easily do this. I do not think it is quite as straightforward as that.
The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, asked me about sitting times. I assure him that I have just seen the paper that will come before the Procedure Committee at its next meeting. We will give it very thorough consideration, because it is a very important point which has been made to me by noble Lords.
On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and others about administration members, I reaffirm what I said at the beginning. I genuinely think we have responsibilities here; it is really important. I emphasise that my task is to support your Lordships, working with the administration, for the best interests of the House.
On the importance of having Tellers and recording the numbers passing, I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, that that is part of the essential proposal that came forward following the 25 October debate, when so many of your Lordships, on all sides of the House, said that, to have the probity of Divisions that many wanted, we must have Tellers. The committee took that fully on board. I know that some hold the view that Tellers are unnecessary, but it was understood from that debate, looking as I did across the House, that this belief was strongly held because Divisions are a key part of making the laws of the land and we need, in my view and that of the House, the rigour of coming together in passing those laws.
The point about the pass reader and its authority is that it will clearly identify every single Member who has voted, by name; as is important, we will know with speed how noble Lords have voted, but also the Teller will come back with the number and it will be presented at the Table alongside what is on the readers. It will be for the Teller to go up to whichever noble Lord is on the Woolsack to present the result. The whole essence of the pass reader is to ensure that we get it absolutely correct for all noble Lords, which I think everyone would want, for the reasons I have described. Occasionally we have had a problem, with the wrong names being ascribed to varying noble Lords.
On the very important issue of forgetting the pass or the changing of a suit, which the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, raised, a key feature was added precisely so that, if and when the Pass Office is closed, at Peers’ Entrance there will be passes available which will immediately be activated to enable a noble Lord to vote if they have come in without one.