Procedure and Privileges Committee

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

As an amendment to the first Motion in the name of the Senior Deputy Speaker, at the end insert “but that this House believes that the Lord Speaker should call remote participants during questions, oral statements, and repeated urgent questions, rather than the Leader of the House”.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the Senior Deputy Speaker for the courteous way in which he has dealt with these issues, both formally and informally. I am most grateful to him for discussing them with me.

First, I emphasise that I think it is crucial that we have an efficient and fair system to allow our remote disabled colleagues to participate as much as possible. Secondly, I approve the extension of their ability to participate. The only issue before us is who calls them to speak, and that brings me to my amendment.

Let me say what my amendment is not. It is not a party-political issue in any way whatever. It does not in any way compare us with the other place because the other place does not have an arrangement to allow disabled people to participate remotely; in fact, yet again the other place is not as enlightened as we are in this House, just as we were first with televising the House and on many other innovations. And it is not a beauty contest; I think we would lose right away if it were.

So why am I proposing this amendment? First, the chair of all the meetings I have ever been to has been the moderator of the debate. That applies to committees of this House, where the chair calls people to speak. Secondly, the Leader of the House has many other responsibilities. Even today, just before this debate, she dealt with an important Covid Statement, and later today, she will give a Statement on the crucial issue of Ukraine. She is a member of the Cabinet, and has many other responsibilities. Why should we require her to do this, when we have a perfectly competent Lord Speaker and, if I may say so, an equally competent Senior Deputy Speaker, as well as many other Deputy Speakers who stand in and carry out that responsibility very well? In fact, we saw a perfect example of this earlier today, when my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall called the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to speak remotely on the previous Statement. She did it with skill and effectiveness. Among everything else, with due respect to the Senior Deputy Speaker, she proved that the configuration of the House, which was his main argument, is not a problem. She was able to deal with it perfectly.

I would be interested to hear colleagues’ views before I decide whether or not to press this amendment, but I now have the pleasure of moving what I think is just a simple but very important amendment.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is going to speak at this point. If he is not, I am always happy to say a few words.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I may be misled, but my understanding is that this would not be making a decision; it would be carrying out a decision that has already been made, and that is better done by the Speaker than by someone on the Front Bench.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

Well, I accept that there is an argument there, because introducing the virtual speaker is done by the Lord Speaker in other proceedings. But this is a particular difficulty in Questions, with the pace of Question Time. You have a decision being made on the Front Bench—I do not agree with that; I think it should be made by the Lord Speaker—and then another decision being made by the Lord Speaker on the Woolsack. There is a distance between them, so there is a practical problem.

I think we should look at it and I certainly support the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that we should look at this in the round and look at the powers of the Lord Speaker. We actually had a vote on it; that is the only difficulty we have had. Maybe we should look at it again and have another vote—but I think there are difficulties with this particular proposal. Apart from that, having made my point in favour of the virtual voting system, I am supportive of the report as to where we are.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

That is a very reasonable point. If, for any reason, any noble Lord’s pass did not work, I can put the assurance that clearly that would need to be addressed by going to the Teller and saying, “I can’t work this”. We would need to look into it, but the Peer would be recorded by the Teller if that was the case. It is perfectly possible that there may be a problem with the system. As I say, there has not been a problem in the other place, but if there were, we would have to undertake a manuscript arrangement, as it were. We would need to do that if the system failed. So far as the practicalities of it, I think it is reasonable to ask noble Lords to use the pass which can be obtained at the Pass Office or at Peers’ Entrance. This is not in any way offensive to the importance of either the Writ of Summons or access to the Palace.

Obviously, I am in the hands of noble Lords. I hope that, following 25 October, I have taken back the points raised and the suggestion that Statements should be under the same arrangement that we have. In my view, everything should be kept under review. We should see how these matters go and flourish. Interestingly, I have been told that Question Time has flowed much better. In point of fact, quite a lot more noble Lords—I do not have the statistics in front of me—have been able to pose questions because of the dynamic of this flow. Those are the sorts of things that I am tuned into to see how it is going.

I ask noble Lords is to support the report, mindful that the committee and I will always want to keep anything under review. If noble Lords are unhappy about something, then we will need to look at it and come back to your Lordships. With all those remarks, I am in the hands of the House.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we have had a very good debate on both topics. I am grateful again to the Senior Deputy Speaker. However, I do not think we are dealing with whether the person coming in remotely is first. As I understand it, there is usually an understanding within the usual channels about which of the relatively small number of seriously disabled people should be allowed in remotely. Who should come in and when is usually accepted; all I am talking about is who should call them. I think implementing the decision to call them is better coming from the Chair.

As a number of noble Lords will confirm, I have been asked, again and again, whether I will press this to a vote. I said, “I have not made up my mind; I am going to consult with as many people as possible”. I have discussed it. My noble friend the shadow Chief Whip has been very helpful, I had a chat with the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, the former Lord Speaker, and I have taken advice about it from others. The general advice was to listen to the debate and then decide. I have very much listened to the debate and what was said by the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley, Lord Hunt and Lord Grocott, the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and particularly—I hope this does not sound patronising, in any way—the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, with her extensive experience as Lord Speaker. She said it has been quite a while since she did it, so she is impartial as a result. On the basis of what they said, I would like to test the House in relation to what I was going to describe as a modest amendment, but others have described as minuscule.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can I ask him if he has ascertained whether the Lord Speaker is willing to take on the responsibility of receiving these communications from eligible Members.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I assure my noble and learned friend—I think I can call him that, as we have known each other for many decades—that I would not have moved it if the Lord Speaker had not been willing.