Procedure and Privileges Committee

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, this is not the first time we have had this debate and it will not surprise many people that I agree wholeheartedly with the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Foulkes. I think it is time, maybe at the conclusion of this debate, to test the opinion of the House.

I want to put this in some kind of context. It has been 17 years since we established the position of Lord Speaker. It was highly controversial. The main concern expressed by those opposed to the inauguration of a Lord Speaker was that they feared we would end up with a Speaker like in the House of Commons. I had a great deal of sympathy for that view, but surely we can reach the conclusion now, after 17 years, that there has been at no stage the slightest evidence of the Lord Speaker here becoming like a Speaker in the House of Commons—adjudicating on points of order and the rest. We can say categorically that the Lord Speaker’s position in this House is not like the Speaker in the House of Commons and there is no remote possibility of that happening. I hope we can put that particular scare story to bed.

I also point out that, slowly over these 17 years—things do not happen quickly in this place—there has been a movement of responsibilities towards the Lord Speaker. Every one of those movements, small and slight at each stage, has seemed to be absolute common sense as soon as they have been introduced. The most recent, of course, is that the Lord Speaker now introduces the business, as opposed to the clerk sitting at the Table—for example, announcing when a Statement is to be made and what it is about. They were all common-sense proposals that the person in the chair does those things.

Does anyone listening to this short debate think that the sensible thing now would be to move the clock backwards and reinstate those responsibilities wherever they existed before—in part with the Clerk at the Table and, more significantly, with the Leader of the House? I do not think anyone does, and I am certain that, if we made the very small change that my noble friend is proposing, we would think it was common sense to go back to it after an experimental period of six months. So I hope the House will make a decision on this. I always try to understand opposing views, but I really cannot see a case for it remaining with the Leader of the House—not least, of course, because the Lord Speaker is the same person there every day. There is continuity, predictability and common sense.

I will speak briefly on the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. Again, I am very inclined to support the case he makes, for this reason: I think these pass readers are, in a sense, a solution to a problem that does not exist. I was a Teller on numerous votes over a long period when there were several ties—we had lots of excitement in those days; the tension built up and all the rest of it—and there were lots of Divisions won or lost by two, three or four votes. I cannot remember a single instance when there was a problem with the telling system that existed and we needed a recount. It worked perfectly well. The Senior Deputy Speaker said that we must move with the times—well, by all means, although we tend not to do that with any great haste normally in this Chamber. The truth is, there is no problem to be resolved—unless he can demonstrate it to me. If people can do it well enough, do we really need a machine to do the job? I am not convinced, and I await the rest of the debate to see whether I can be.

I will make one final brief plea to the Senior Deputy Speaker. He said on 13 July that the question of the sitting hours of this House would be reviewed by his committee. I would like an update, please, on how that review is going and when he expects to bring a suggestion to the House.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend Lord Gardiner. He listened to the debate, and he and his committee have come back with a perfectly reasonable solution. The issue that concerned us most was the role of the Tellers, and that has been sorted.

Having said that, I am concerned about the constitutional position. We get a Writ of Summons which entitles us to come here and vote. During the period of the previous Clerk of the Parliaments, when we could not get in here because of people gluing themselves to the pavement, blocking the road and everything else, I went to see him and said, “What has happened to the Sessional Orders that we pass every year?” He said, “They’re really decorative. They don’t really matter”. They matter immensely, because it means that a mob could actually prevent us voting and, more importantly, people in the other place voting—

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

As in the Capitol.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Indeed, as my noble friend says, as in the Capitol.

So, I am just a bit concerned that, in order to cast my vote, I need a document issued by the House bureaucracy. Noble Lords may say that the House bureaucracy will never take their vote away—but I noted what happened to the previous Lord Speaker, who had her right to come and have a drink or cup of tea here taken away because she had not done the Valuing Everyone training as she had been ill. I noted also that, just before Christmas, on our very last day, those of us who use the House of Commons underground car park—I have used it twice in 22 years—were sent an email telling us that our pass would no longer work to give us access to the underground car park; this was without any consultation whatever.

So I would say to my noble friend that, if he wants to have a gadget and an electronic voting system because he thinks somehow that Tellers cannot count and clerks cannot tick off people’s names on a computer, fine, but I do worry that, in order to vote, I have to have this document. I change my suit when I come down from Scotland, noble Lords will be pleased to hear, and, sometimes, I leave my pass in my pocket and discover that I do not have it. Okay, I can get past the policeman by showing him my driving licence or something of that kind, and I am told that I can go downstairs and get another pass—but why should we have to get another pass in order to vote? If people have forgotten their pass, surely the Tellers can—

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

You cannot get in without a pass.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Of course you can get in without a pass; surely the noble Lord knows that perfectly well. You say to the policeman, “I am a Member of the House”, and you show him your driving licence or some other form of identification. If this is where we are moving—to a situation where our ability to come here and vote is decided by the rules of the Administration—that is an undesirable development. The way around this is simply to say that, if you do not have your pass, you can still vote by going to see the Teller. My noble friend here tells me that he has not registered for PeerHub, but he can go to the Table Office and he will be able to vote if there is a Division this afternoon. So I just think that it should not be conditional.

The other thing that I will say will probably make me very unpopular indeed. I do understand why we want to allow remote voting for those people who are not able to come to this House; I get that. I think that the numbers need to be limited and the reasons need to be genuine for that to work effectively. But I do not understand how it is possible for people to be eligible to vote remotely while also appearing in this House from time to time; I find that a bit confusing.

More importantly, one thing that really irritates me about the coverage of this House is that I read regularly how we get paid more than £300 a day. We get £300 a day to cover our expenses, overnight accommodation and whatever else is required to be able to attend this place. When we were not able to attend because of Covid, we were given half a day’s allowance if we operated remotely—but those people who appear remotely at the present time get a full day’s allowance. I believe that undermines the ability to defend the system, which is about paying that £300 or whatever it is per day to cover the expenses of attending here, and I think that should be looked at. I am sorry if I sound like Gradgrind, but we are talking here about spending public money and we need to be able to justify why it is being done.

So I say to my noble friend that I will support him but that he should think about the point made so eloquently by my noble friend Lord Cormack. There should not be an absolute requirement to have a pass in order to vote in the Division Lobbies of this House.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I will not follow the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in everything that he said, but I would like to register my absolute support for the point he made about the Sessional Order and the importance of gaining access to this House, particularly when there are difficulties outside. On other issues, I am extremely diffident about commenting on the powers of the Lord Speakership, for reasons that the House will understand, but, having had more than a decade since I left office, I feel that I might be allowed a little leeway on the subject.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does the noble Lord not realise, in saying, “You can’t come into this House unless you have a security pass”, that that is the very reason why some of us are concerned about this issue? This is a House of Parliament. It is not an office building.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

I thought we had this argument some time ago. You can go to Black Rod’s Garden Entrance and get a temporary pass if you need it. There should be a rule for everybody that you cannot get into this building without a pass, but that is an argument for another day; I thought that we had this argument some time ago and won it, but let us move on to the debate now.

I am a member of the Procedure Committee. I support the committee’s proposals in the report, as far as they go, but I have a point of dissent because the commission made the original decision to have pass readers. I have never agreed with that as such but, if we are to have pass readers, I agree with the rules and procedures that have been agreed. In my view, the reason for having pass readers is that it will speed up the process of voting. I cannot tell noble Lords how many times, with my name—Lord Stoneham—I have been confused with the noble Lord, Lord Stone, in the Lobby when I give my name to the clerk. We have had similar problems when the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, is given to the clerk because there are two Lady Bakewells. It happens; we get mistakes. I have no doubt that the process will be quicker. I am happy that, if we have pass readers instead of Tellers, as we agreed in the procedures, it will be fine. It will increase the speed of voting in time, I am sure, once everybody gets used to it.

However, I want to make another point. At every meeting of the usual channels that I go to, what is normally being discussed is a complaint that the Government do not have enough time to get their legislation through this House and we are having far too many late nights. I just want to make the argument—the last stand, if you like—for virtual voting because it has worked amazingly well. We are talking about problems with pass readers but look what we have been through over the past two years with virtual voting. It has worked incredibly well. A minority are still having difficulties with phones, but I am sure that this could be dealt with if we put our minds to it.

I hope that we will look at the possibility of virtual voting because, if we did, it would enable us to go back to shorter times for votes. We could do them in seven or eight minutes, whereas when we go through the Lobbies, the long votes take 20 to 25 minutes. There should be a real drive to get everybody involved in the virtual voting system through their mobile phones. It is incredibly convenient. Noble Lords can vote anywhere they like in this building: in the Chamber, even in the Lobbies if they want to, but anywhere in the parliamentary building. It means that noble Lords can vote in Millbank House as well, so it overcomes the argument that we should have a post there. It also involves minimal interruption to Select Committees; indeed, it is convenient for attendance at all the other meetings we have to have in Parliament.

I therefore think that, if we put our minds to it, we would find that it is a much quicker and more convenient way of voting, and one that we have already proved can work. It will involve the actual votes being much quicker. If we are not going to have a vote before we make the final decision on the posts, I hope that in time we will at least look at this for the future, because we already have two years of experience when it has, I think, worked remarkably well and improved the convenience of the House.

I obviously do not support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, but I would like to say a little about the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I have tremendous admiration for the noble Lord and am normally on his side on every single argument; I am certainly on his side in terms of giving the Lord Speaker greater powers for calling Members at Questions. But there is a practical difficulty. If you allow the Government Front Bench, either the Leader or the Chief Whip, to decide and adjudicate when there is a dispute as to whose turn it is to ask a question, you cannot then leave to the Lord Speaker the decision on calling somebody virtually. It would add tremendous confusion, I am afraid.

--- Later in debate ---

Today, I do not want to go into the issue of whether we should be wearing passes. I feel that the House has taken a view that we should wear passes—a view taken not only for our security but for the general security of the Palace of Westminster. I understand the Writ of Summons, which goes back a very long way to previous times, when some of us might have arrived by horse to this House, but we now arrive in different manners and respects. We should let this pass reader system see how we do. If we cannot actually present a pass to a pass reader then, my goodness me, we might be in difficulties. This is not, as I say, a denial of our history—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I apologise to my noble friend, but I think he is rather trivialising this issue. It is not about whether we wear a pass or not but whether having a pass enables us to vote or not.

I will give an example: it is perfectly possible, if you keep your mobile phone and credit cards together, for you to find that your credit card has been wiped out. You could be in the Lobby and find that your pass was not actually activating the reader. I have had this experience at the pass reader as you come in from the Underground. What would we do in those circumstances? I asked my noble friend specifically. I said I would support him and his recommendations, provided there was an opportunity for someone who had a problem to be able to go to the Tellers and say, “Look, my pass didn’t work and I tried to get a pass downstairs; there is a fault”. You would not get 30 people in that situation, as in the Table Office. So could he give an undertaking that there will be a failsafe arrangement in those exceptional circumstances?

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

That is a very reasonable point. If, for any reason, any noble Lord’s pass did not work, I can put the assurance that clearly that would need to be addressed by going to the Teller and saying, “I can’t work this”. We would need to look into it, but the Peer would be recorded by the Teller if that was the case. It is perfectly possible that there may be a problem with the system. As I say, there has not been a problem in the other place, but if there were, we would have to undertake a manuscript arrangement, as it were. We would need to do that if the system failed. So far as the practicalities of it, I think it is reasonable to ask noble Lords to use the pass which can be obtained at the Pass Office or at Peers’ Entrance. This is not in any way offensive to the importance of either the Writ of Summons or access to the Palace.

Obviously, I am in the hands of noble Lords. I hope that, following 25 October, I have taken back the points raised and the suggestion that Statements should be under the same arrangement that we have. In my view, everything should be kept under review. We should see how these matters go and flourish. Interestingly, I have been told that Question Time has flowed much better. In point of fact, quite a lot more noble Lords—I do not have the statistics in front of me—have been able to pose questions because of the dynamic of this flow. Those are the sorts of things that I am tuned into to see how it is going.

I ask noble Lords is to support the report, mindful that the committee and I will always want to keep anything under review. If noble Lords are unhappy about something, then we will need to look at it and come back to your Lordships. With all those remarks, I am in the hands of the House.