Procedure and Privileges Committee

Viscount Hailsham Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend Lord Gardiner. He listened to the debate, and he and his committee have come back with a perfectly reasonable solution. The issue that concerned us most was the role of the Tellers, and that has been sorted.

Having said that, I am concerned about the constitutional position. We get a Writ of Summons which entitles us to come here and vote. During the period of the previous Clerk of the Parliaments, when we could not get in here because of people gluing themselves to the pavement, blocking the road and everything else, I went to see him and said, “What has happened to the Sessional Orders that we pass every year?” He said, “They’re really decorative. They don’t really matter”. They matter immensely, because it means that a mob could actually prevent us voting and, more importantly, people in the other place voting—

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

As in the Capitol.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Indeed, as my noble friend says, as in the Capitol.

So, I am just a bit concerned that, in order to cast my vote, I need a document issued by the House bureaucracy. Noble Lords may say that the House bureaucracy will never take their vote away—but I noted what happened to the previous Lord Speaker, who had her right to come and have a drink or cup of tea here taken away because she had not done the Valuing Everyone training as she had been ill. I noted also that, just before Christmas, on our very last day, those of us who use the House of Commons underground car park—I have used it twice in 22 years—were sent an email telling us that our pass would no longer work to give us access to the underground car park; this was without any consultation whatever.

So I would say to my noble friend that, if he wants to have a gadget and an electronic voting system because he thinks somehow that Tellers cannot count and clerks cannot tick off people’s names on a computer, fine, but I do worry that, in order to vote, I have to have this document. I change my suit when I come down from Scotland, noble Lords will be pleased to hear, and, sometimes, I leave my pass in my pocket and discover that I do not have it. Okay, I can get past the policeman by showing him my driving licence or something of that kind, and I am told that I can go downstairs and get another pass—but why should we have to get another pass in order to vote? If people have forgotten their pass, surely the Tellers can—

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, I have nothing against pass readers. There is a great deal to be said for them. However, my noble friend Lord Forsyth is utterly right. What happens if people do not have a pass or have forgotten it? In those circumstances, it would be extremely helpful if there could be a default position by which noble Lords could vote in the Table Office to meet that circumstance.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I speak tentatively, as a new Member, particularly in relation to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

I shivered when I heard the justification for the changes to voting, and that “It was time to move with the times.” As a relatively new Member, I think that there is quite a lot that could change if that was the guiding principle of this House. One of the things that I have struggled with is learning the variety of rules and traditions. I am not criticising or complaining, but simply asking whether “move with the times” is a new slogan. If so, the pass readers are the least of the problems that this House is likely to encounter.

Also, I do not like, inside or outside this House, the way that technology can be used to suggest more profound changes as though they were a fait accompli. The way it runs is, “It’s just technology: there’s nothing to see here; don’t worry about it; we’re just collecting your data; show your papers or your pass”, wherever it may be, including outside of here, but it is often presented as though anyone who objects is a bit of a Luddite who does not get modern times. There is a point about this change that is political, and not simply one of technology, of which I am sure that we are all supportive. I need clarification on whether it would become permanent. Trials are one thing, but there is a broader point that the Covid period has led to us having to accept the new normal because we are not going back to the status quo. My view on this, and regarding the rest of society as well, is that we go back to the old normal, and if we want to change to the new normal, we have a democratic vote, either in here or outside of here, to decide whether that is what we want, rather than being told, “It is all too late for that: we’ve lived through Covid; put up with it—this is the new normal.” I do not like that.

Also, in relation to the pass readers in particular, the justification that it is convenient does not seem justifiable. I do not understand why noble Lords want to change it anyway, to be frank, but it surely should not be changed for convenience. There are lots of things in this House which are inconvenient to me all the time, as I am sure that there are to other people, but that is because it is a different place. That is the point, is it not? It has different rules and conventions. I am concerned that we are being bumped into it— steamrollered into it. If there is to be a change, I would not mind it being trialled, piloted or whatever it is, but the idea that something becomes permanent as a fait accompli I find disconcerting. Even in an undemocratic House, there must be some democratic spirit remaining, surely.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise for detaining the House. I will not apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for intervening while I was seated; I know that he does it himself. The point I was trying to make is that Peers should not come into this House without a security pass and they should wear their security pass whenever they are here, for security reasons. This proposal assumes that, whenever we are in the House, there will be a facility to get another pass if we lose ours; that is important. In fact, if noble Lords go and look at the exhibition in the Royal Gallery, they will find a proposal that they will not be able to get in through Peers’ Entrance without a pass—quite right too, in my view, but that is another argument for another day.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

Is the noble Lord aware that the Pass Office has limited hours? It opens early but also closes early. If he wants to get a pass after 4 pm, he may not be able to.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

If the noble Lord feels that way, we control this House so we should get it changed. It is as simple as that. Of course, if we are to have this procedure, we will have to change it.