United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

I have also received a request from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, but I first call the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, with all due respect to the Minister, I am sure he understands how unsatisfactory that answer was. My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford talked about the gobbledegook of future-proofing, and this is gobbledegook. First, could the Minister tell your Lordships’ House what past examples lead the Government today to this conclusion? Secondly, why is there a problem with bringing any future issues to the Government and your Lordships’ House bespoke in the event that the Minister proves correct and something turns up? To seek to produce a Bill that covers all of the unknown unknowns that are going to happen in the history of time seems overambitious.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I think we are just going to have to differ on this one. We do not want to be returning to the House to create unnecessary difficulties and disagreements in the future; we want to ensure that, before any of these difficulties arise, we have put in place, as in the rest of the Bill, a framework that covers the whole of the United Kingdom to regulate how we will manage and control these issues in the future. That is all we are seeking to do. I understand the points that noble Lords are making. There are differently regulated professions in some parts of the UK already; we accept that and that the status quo is there, but we think that, in future, these things are best regulated on a UK-wide basis, and we want no new barriers to trade to emerge.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s response. In her speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asked some very specific questions, particularly in the stand part bit of her speech. I listened hard but I could not hear any answers to them, so perhaps the Minister could review her speech and write a letter, promptly, making sure that I and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, get a copy.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Hear, hear.

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[The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I support my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern on this group of amendments, particularly Amendment 114. Having the correct dispute resolution mechanism is extremely important. If the Government can find a better one than what has been suggested, I would be interested in the Minister giving us a clue as to what it might be.

The Government have found that the Scottish Administration object to the Bill, particularly the internal market element. My noble and learned friend has drawn on many years of legal and parliamentary experience in trying to find a way for the devolved Administrations to have a forum for formal comment on the arrangements for reinforcing the single market and any SIs.

The Joint Ministerial Council on EU Negotiations has already received wide acceptance in its role of setting up the conditions for negotiating market frameworks. I declare my family interest, which is in a livestock farm in Scotland and in the Scottish agricultural industry. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, pointed out, the industry as a whole in Wales and Northern Ireland is desperate to see a properly functioning single market across the UK, let alone within the EU. It finds the framework concept so far very reassuring, but it appears that the Scottish Government are looking for more.

I have a reason to declare an interest of another kind in this whole process, in that the dukedom that I represent in your Lordships’ House derives from the role that my six-times-great-grandfather played in promoting the negotiations for the Act of Union. This of course was a desire to get a single UK market at that time, as there were so many areas where Scotland had previously had no way of gaining benefit. The settlement that they agreed left Scotland with much lesser constitutional powers than currently exist; none the less, they were determined that certain characteristics of Scottish life should remain, and they do so to this day. Therefore, I have always watched these developments with care.

Several of your Lordships were here when we debated the Scotland Bill, sometimes quite late into the night. At that time, it seemed incredible that all the items necessary for the administration of the UK could be defined in a schedule, with Scotland having jurisdiction over everything else. We were assured that this was not a worry, because Westminster always retained the final say. Noble Lords—my noble friend the Minister is probably conscious of it too—may remember, during the progress of the Scotland Bill in 1998, a slightly bad-tempered evening in Committee, which was asked to begin sitting at 6 pm and spent some time on the future relationship between Westminster and the new Administration. I was never quite sure if this was a formally prepared answer, but when trying to bring the argument to a head, Lord Sewel uttered the familiar words:

“Clause 27 makes it clear that the devolution of legislative competence to the Scottish parliament does not affect the ability of Westminster to legislate for Scotland even in relation to devolved matters … However, as happened in Northern Ireland earlier in the century, we would expect a convention to be established that Westminster would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish parliament. If problems do arise the solution is for the Scottish executive and the United Kingdom Government to resolve the matter through political dialogue. That is what differences between mature parliaments and Executives will be concerned with.”—[Official Report, 21/7/98; col. 791.]

This is where we find ourselves today. Any formal reiteration of this power always recognises the full content of this text, but the element that receives much more exposure—to the point where people begin to think that it is the only part of the legislation—is the need for legislative consent Motions whenever uncertainty arises. The encouragement to progress to political dialogue is most certainly relevant to where we are at the present time. In the present circumstances, it would not be ideal for the Government simply to implement UK legislation. Perhaps the Minister can tell the House what stage discussions with the Scottish Government have reached? It seems to me that these amendments are suggesting a form in which the Government’s proposals can be formally conveyed, with a chance that the final positions of both sides can be opened for scrutiny.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the quality of this relatively short debate on a really important issue. In his speech, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, emphasised the need to avoid a threat to the devolution settlement. When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, stirs, and tables amendments, it is important for us all to listen. Clearly, he is very concerned about the route that this Bill is taking, as is the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, who articulated strong reasons for a consultative and consensus approach to regulating the internal market of the United Kingdom. I am also grateful to him for bringing up again the Act of Union, because this is a live treaty; it still exists and reflects on the issue which we are discussing. We should always remember that.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, talked about the need for the devolved authorities, or the Joint Ministerial Committee, to be involved in the nitty-gritty of the market. My noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed set out the dangers and the discontinuities within the current state of the Bill that make that process impossible. Therefore, it is important for the Minister to explain how this will work, because there are so many missing pieces in a jigsaw puzzle which, frankly, still does not have a picture, and which make it very difficult for us to understand what the Government are seeking to achieve and why.

My noble friend Lord Purvis asked many questions and he raised the issue of triggering disputes. The issue of when a dispute is triggered is central, as is the one which has surfaced in many different debates: the mechanism for resolving disputes. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, suggested one way; perhaps the Minister can comment on that.

My noble friend Lady Humphreys and other noble Lords have pointed out that the JMC, and its variety of committees, seem to have stalled, not because of any lack of faith from the devolved authorities but because of the Prime Minister not convening a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee (Plenary). Can the Minister explain the delay and say when the next meeting will occur? My noble friend Lord Purvis also raised the important question of structure. Where does this all fit in with the JMC’s current operations?

It is the Government who have sought to drag the CMA out of its current area of reserved issues and focus it on devolved issues. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, that it is not this amendment, but the Government, that have decided to do that. They are pulling the Office for the Internal Market into an as yet undefined dispute role. It is very clear, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, set out, that if advice and reports are being submitted, then the JMC must be party to the same information that the UK Government are getting. It is also clear that we have no real idea of the Government’s intention for the operation of this Bill.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

These are important amendments that reveal yet another problem in the Bill. First, they deal with the role of the CMA, which under this Bill is intended to monitor and give advice on the working of the internal market. As I understand the way that Section 30 envisages that the CMA will operate, it will authorise an Office for the Internal Market task group to set up groups to look at particular issues. The amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, seeks to ensure that, before such a task force is set up, there is confidence that the appointment of the task force, the terms of the task force and what it is doing have broad buy-in from all the relevant parts of the United Kingdom. Can the Minister explain how, without the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, this was currently going to be achieved?

For example, the CMA’s parent department is the business department, which is a UK government department. The CMA has a number of board members and panel members; how many of them at the moment have experience of Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish business issues? As the Bill makes clear, the CMA will be appointing a task force where there is a difference between one part of the United Kingdom and another regarding regulatory or statutory requirements. On what basis do the Government envisage these task groups being appointed and set up? Is there any objection to adopting the noble and learned Lord’s suggestion of how to ensure that you get all the other parts of the country involved, as opposed to only BEIS or the CMA? If not, can the Minister put forward an alternative suggestion?

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

I have received requests to speak after the Minister from the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Purvis of Tweed. I call the noble Lord, Lord Fox, first.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I appreciate the Minister’s reply on the important points put forward. Whether the amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, are adopted or there is some other form of regulating the relationship between the UK Government and the devolved authorities, does the Minister agree that there can be a smooth-running internal market only if there is trust between the UK Government and the devolved authorities? Could the Minister say what the Government’s assessment is of the effect on that trust of publishing the Bill?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly agree on the principle of trust between all parties in a negotiation. It is not always there in every negotiation, but this is more than a negotiation; it is a relationship. It is a life together, which we all wish to carry forward as the four nations and peoples of these islands. Standing at this Dispatch Box, I have sought to assure the House of the Government’s total commitment to proceeding with trust and respect. That has to come from every Government and institution in the United Kingdom. I go no further than that. I do not believe that seeking to set out a common approach to the management of the UK internal market in the UK Parliament, to which all four nations of this kingdom send representatives, should in any way undermine trust.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for introducing these two amendments and giving us the opportunity to probe the very heart of the functioning of the OIM in terms of its independence. Can my noble friend the Minister say how the Government will ensure that this body will be independent? My noble friend will be aware of my concerns and those of others that the Government have got into the habit recently of creating such public corporate bodies and then trying to direct how they operate. Recent examples are, as the noble Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb, just alluded to, the Trade and Agriculture Commission, which falls within the Department for International Trade, which basically does not provide any resources to those who serve on the commission and, even more recently, the Office for Environmental Protection which, apparently, is to be appointed by and subsumed within Defra. So that is my main concern here, and there is much to commend in Amendment 115 as to how the body corporate is to be set up.

Furthermore, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asks in subsection 2(2) of Amendment 131 for consultation with the devolved Administrations. I would prefer it if went further, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, requested: consent for such appointments should be sought from the devolved Administrations. Presumably, if the Government were to adopt the terms of this amendment, it would be the OIM that would ensure the level playing field, which I imagine is the Government’s intention. However, if it was not the OIM, can the Minister explain which body would, as in subsection 3(2),

“rule that any distortive or harmful subsidies are illegal and should be repaid”,

and, as in subsection 3(4),

“recommend to the Secretary of State changes to the test for a harmful subsidy, the scope of exemptions, and time limits on approvals”?

There should be a body to ensure levelling-up, not just of the regions but between the four nations. I hope that the Government are taking a consistent approach here, in their position on the European Union and their position on state aid between the four nations of the United Kingdom internal market. It would not behove the Government to be seen to be parti pris on their position on competition and state aid in this regard.

I share the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and others, in the previous debate, regarding responses not always being published. I am having great difficulty, and perhaps the Minister can point me in the right direction, but rather than a summary of the responses, it would be enormously helpful if the Government published the responses to the consultation regarding this amendment in full, and preferably before the next stage of the Bill. That would enable us to form our own view of who said what in response to the consultation.

With those few remarks, I would like to put the key questions to the Minister: how do the Government intend to ensure the independence of the OIM, and how do they intend to carry the devolved Administrations with them in this regard?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, so far there have been four groups of amendments dealing with the CMA and the OIM, and three different Ministers fielding. That perhaps summarises the fragmented nature of this Bill and the unjoined-up nature of what we are seeking to achieve. In those four groups, and this group, amendments have sought, in a sense, to correct and improve this Bill, but there is no point, because this Bill is beyond that stage. Other speakers have sought to probe and get information from the Government, and there has been no point to that either, because the Government have not answered questions. Despite extremely well directed, forensic analysis and questioning, the Government have ducked, dived and shrugged.

In addition to supporting the request made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for the consultation to be published, I would like this Minister, who is before us for the first time in this debate, to answer the questions on this group, and to undertake, on behalf of the other Ministers, to answer all the questions that the last four groups have presented, because they are all extremely important to understanding what on earth the Government intend to do.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, my name is on this amendment, and I am pleased to support it and to follow the very clear explanation that we have just heard.

I speak briefly to subsections (3) and (4) of the proposed new clause. The former calls for the report to deal with

“indirect or cumulative effects … distortion of competition or trade”

and, as I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, would be pleased to hear were she still here

“impacts on prices, the quality of goods and services or choice for consumers”

then moves on to consider

“the health and safety of humans, animals and plants … standards of environmental protection”

and other issues that have come forward.

This is another way of trying to do many of the same things that have come through the variety of amendments that your Lordships have heard over the course of the last three days in Committee. All the Ministers have all talked about level playing fields, and the purpose of this legislation is to create a level playing field. We all subscribe to that. The purpose of subsection (4) is to create an informational level playing field, to ensure that all the Governments are receiving the same information and create some transparency so that the outside world—indeed, the companies involved and the people involved—also receives that information.

I am sure that the Minister will stand up in a few minutes and give us very good reasons why this amendment should be withdrawn, but before he does, can he undertake to ensure that the level playing field applies not only to the commercial and trading issues, but also to the information that all the players receive when these decisions are being taken?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it will be interesting to hear how the Minister responds to this request, which has been well described as a bit of a coda. On the other hand, it also contains teeth, which would be there to be used, if someone wished to. It is important to get this right and understand, if it is rejected, why it is. I look forward to that.

Ministers know that we on the Labour side think that the common frameworks are at the centre of the managed divergence that we want to see and allow to happen across the devolved Administrations. It is important that the process continues and that is at the centre of the Bill, because it is not at the moment; it is hardly mentioned, except in passing. If that is the case, we look for some additional reassurance from the Minister that the powers that might be available to the Government, when they feel the common frameworks are not working, are not used too early or vicariously just to show the devolved Administrations who is in charge. As we were reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, on day one, the Government already have powers to deal with any default they feel is present in the common frameworks. The questions raised by this amendment are important, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.