Casinos (Gaming Machines and Mandatory Conditions) Regulations 2025

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for setting out what is, in many ways, a very technical SI, as well as the two related SIs to which she referred.

I understand that a lot of the pressure and motivation —if not the only motivation—behind this measure is economic growth and the international competitiveness dimension. However, I certainly had some concerns on reading through the SI. Perhaps I am unique in this —I do not know—but it seems to me that the regulations would potentially alter the split between gaming machines and table-based gaming, which I think the Minister referred to, from 2:1 to 5:1. That is quite a considerable shift. The latter form, table-based gaming, represents a less intense gaming experience and is, I would argue, potentially less harmful to consumers. The Minister will know that 25% of casinos in this country are in the poorest decile of the country; we should therefore be concerned about the connection with gambling harm. Has there been a corresponding increase in space and opportunities for customers to take a break from gambling? There has been an increase in the space available for gambling machines. If there has been an increase in the areas for non-gambling, what is that increase, and what sort of facilities do these areas represent?

It is very clear in the analysis and the evidence that the annual increase in income for the gambling sector after three years is between £52 million and £63 million per annum—the gross gambling yield, I should say—with a median figure of £58 million. I recognise that that is obviously subject to costs and tax, but it still represents a considerable increase. Should we not at the same time be increasing the amount that is put aside to help with gambling addiction and gambling harm? There is no indication of that happening here in the measure.

If one looks at the theme of the analysis and the evidence, which I have done, it is quite clear. Page 4 of the impact assessment states:

“There is a risk that this measure increases the prevalence of gambling-related harm”.


Page 37 states that

“there is a risk that gambling harm will increase with the implementation of this measure”.

That is my concern: we should be doing something about that. I am not against the measure as such. Clearly, economic growth is desirable, but should we not at the same time be concerned about gambling harm, which it is quite clearly an ill in society, including in some of the poorest communities of the country?

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I am absolutely delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. I share the concerns that he expressed. I am not going to oppose this statutory instrument but I want to raise some concerns about it, not least in terms of the potential impact on increasing gambling harm.

The Minister has been very generous with her time in speaking with me on a number of occasions recently; I am very grateful for that. She already knows that I have considerable concern about the Government’s current approach, which seems to suggest that, in the wider desire of the Government to increase the whole state of the economy in the country, they also want to grow the gambling industry as part of that. I have argued with the Minister—although I know that she disagrees—that it is simply not possible to grow the gambling industry without also having an increase in gambling harm, whereas she and the Government believe that it is possible both to grow the industry and to reduce the level of gambling harm. You would not increase the tobacco industry and expect it to reduce the consumption of tobacco; the same is true for products in the gambling sector. No doubt this debate will continue between me, the Minister and others over the coming months.

If I look at this statutory instrument, I have some real concerns about it. We have with it an impact assessment. A few minutes ago, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, asked a simple question: could we have some more data about the length of time spent on these machines? He will be delighted to know that, on page 19 of the impact assessment, that data, which we are told is

“a useful insight into how customers currently play on gaming machines”,

is provided. Unfortunately, however, all of the figures are blacked out. We are advised that this is helpful information, yet it—together with many other bits that would be very helpful to us—is blacked out.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, is concerned about some of the parts of the report that talk about the possibility of these measures leading to increased gambling harm. Paragraph 2.68 says:

“Overall, the existing evidence on the causal link between increasing the number of gaming machines in casinos and harm is inconclusive”.


So it is not convinced. It goes on:

“Although we have data on gaming machine participation rates and harm, we are unable to confidently state the nature of the causal connection between the two”.


This evidence that we have, the most useful bits of it blacked out, suggests that even the Government are not sure about the level of harm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

I may have got this wrong and I would be grateful if the Minister can put me right. My understanding is that there are 42 currently dormant casino premises licences, which would enable 42 casinos to open. This is not about a casino that exists moving to another location; I am well aware of the rules around that. My simple question was: what prevents them opening under this new, perhaps brighter economic climate that the Government are now providing to casinos?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

It is a licence rather than the premises that cannot be moved. My understanding is that a licence cannot be moved out of the local authority area.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

I know that. I apologise for pursuing this but perhaps the Minister will agree to write to me about it. It seems important. I am not talking about casinos moving their licence to somewhere else. They have a licence. They are already allowed to operate within a particular local authority, where its gambling policy allows casinos to do that. There are 42 of those licences outstanding, as I understand it—those are 2020 figures. How are we going to prevent them opening under this new, brighter economic climate for casinos?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

This may be where the noble Lord and I diverge in opinion, because the Government’s view is that the casino sector is one of the most well-controlled environments in the sector. There are clear restrictions on the licences. As the noble Lord is aware, there are 186 converted licences, with over 130 in use. They are allocated to permitted areas and cannot move to new areas. No new converted licences will be created. Our stakeholder engagement and analysis suggests there will not be a significant increase. As the noble Lord indicated, there may be some increase if people think that these licences are more profitable but, as noble Lords would perhaps describe it, this is one of the more regulated parts of the sector. It is not necessarily, in our view, a bad thing that the sector is seen as more profitable to those people who have casinos. I am happy to write; I am not sure I will be able to give a different answer but we will look into that and I will revert to the noble Lord in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, raised a number of questions. On how these measures will be enforced, the Gambling Commission will work together with local authorities on enforcement and licensing applications. There is no requirement for any casino to take up these entitlements. DCMS and the Gambling Commission have jointly commissioned an evaluation of the gambling White Paper measures, and we published the plans for evaluation last year. I will draw those plans to the noble Lord’s attention; we can write to him on that.

The noble Lords, Lord Parkinson and Lord Foster, raised—potentially from slightly different perspectives—the issue of adult gaming centres. There were a number of measures in the gambling White Paper in relation to this. We recently set out, in a letter to industry that followed these casino reforms, that we will look at ways of supporting the bingo sector and family entertainment centres. We have paused any reforms to the 80:20 rule, as I want to understand better how the adult gaming centre sector protects its customers from gambling-related harm. I have not ruled out making changes in future, but it felt appropriate to consider this in greater depth. The Government are taking action where it is needed. In our view, these casino reforms are a key part of our wider growth agenda.

On the impact assessment, which was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Parkinson and Lord Foster, redactions are standard practice for commercially sensitive information. I will check again with the department on the question of the redaction around the costs; I will write to the noble Lord on that point and copy in other noble Lords who have taken part in this debate.

I hope that I have managed to cover most of the pertinent points made by your Lordships in this debate. I am really grateful for all the points raised and for your Lordships’ interest in both the land-based casino sector and gambling more broadly.