Building Safety Bill

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Foster of Bath]

111: After Clause 128, insert the following new Clause—
“Sale of goods online for use in buildings
(1) The Secretary of State must, within one year of the passing of this Act, make regulations placing requirements on operators of online marketplaces to take reasonable steps to identify and remove from the online marketplace items which—(a) do not comply with safety legislation, or(b) have been withdrawn or recalled by any person in accordance with safety legislation,and that are of such a kind that are, or may be reasonably assumed to be, for use in buildings.(2) Regulations made pursuant to subsection (1)—(a) must specify what in the opinion of the Secretary of State constitutes “reasonable steps”,(b) may specify which items this section applies to, and(c) may specify penalties for failure to comply with the regulations.”Member’s explanatory statement
The purpose of this Clause is to improve the safety of buildings by preventing the sale of faulty electrical goods that can cause fires. This is particularly important in high-rise buildings in which fires can, and in the past have, spread causing fatalities.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, if I purchase, say, an electric fan or a tumble dryer online, it will arrive at my door within a few days and I will plug it in and use it. However, the item could be electrically unsafe or may be one that the manufacturers have withdrawn because they have some concern about it as a potential risk. I have no way of knowing whether the item I have purchased is in that condition for the very simple reason that there are no regulations that require online distributors to take any reasonable steps to ensure that items purchased online are safe. Of course, if the item is unsafe, it could threaten the safety of my home, perhaps causing a fire. If I live in a high-rise block like the ones we are talking about at the moment, that fire could spread and endanger the other flats in the block and the lives of the people who live in them. This is the danger that my amendment seeks to resolve.

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[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, Amendment 111 seeks to address the issue of potentially unsafe electrical items purchased online and the impact that could have in high-rise blocks. Some noble Lords may believe that this is not a very serious issue and that perhaps not very many such products are available.

Electrical Safety First has done a detailed analysis of the work of the Office for Product Safety and Standards and, in a test, 63% of electrical products bought in an online marketplace were found to be non- compliant and, of those, 23 were unsafe. The OPSS publishes a weekly product safety report, which details products found to pose a risk to health and safety. Analysis of these reports by Electrical Safety First shows that, during 2021, 31% of all unsafe products identified were electrical, 72 of them having been purchased online. A separate investigation that it carried out found that 93% of a sample of electrical products tested from online marketplaces were unsafe. It has also repeatedly found numerous items that have been recalled by manufacturers—often due to a concern about the risk of overheating and fire—but were still available for purchase online. We are not dealing with a small problem.

We know that there is an increasing number of fires in high-rise buildings: the number has gone up year on year. In fact, there has been a 20% increase in the last two years alone. We know that some 53%—over half of all of the fires—were caused by electricity in one form or another. In many cases, the source of ignition was a faulty electrical product. The fire in Grenfell Tower was caused by an electrical appliance—a fridge freezer—as was the fire at Shepherd’s Court in 2016, which was caused by a recalled tumble dryer, and the fire at Lakanal House in 2009, which was caused by a TV. I do not know whether, in each of those cases, those products were purchased online, but we know from all the research that an increasing number of electrical appliances are purchased online. In February last year, 75% of UK shoppers said that they bought such products online, compared to just 40% the previous year—this was obviously enhanced by lockdown.

This is an accident waiting to happen, and we need to do something about it. That view is supported by many organisations: following the OPSS consultation in 2021, they argued that change was needed to ensure that markets remain fair, and specific powers were requested by them in relation to online marketplaces and platforms. The National Audit Office—the NAO—carried out an investigation and found that there were “gaps in regulators’ powers” to regulate the online marketplace. A Public Accounts Committee report includes findings and states that the OPSS had explained to it that

“under current legislation, online marketplaces are not responsible for the safety of products sold by third parties on their platforms.”

Yet there is of course a requirement for purchases made not online but in normal shops, so it is odd that there is a discrepancy here.

It is particularly odd that the Government have done nothing about it so far, because, in answer to a House of Commons Written Question, the Minister said:

“The Government is committed to ensuring that only safe products can be sold in the UK.”


The purpose of this amendment is to achieve exactly what the Government want—to ensure that only safe electrical products can be purchased, whether they are purchased in normal shops or online. It seems a simple amendment. I have not spent a lot of time going through it, because I am absolutely certain that the Minister is just going to say, “Yes, Don, good idea, we’ll agree to it.” I look forward to hearing her say that in a few minutes.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely. I invite the noble Baroness to speak.

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[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate on additional building safety measures. As noble Lords know, making sure everyone’s home is a place of safety is at the heart of the Bill. I will address each of the amendments discussed in turn.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for raising the important matter of ensuring that electrical goods sold online are safe. The Government remain committed to ensuring that only safe products can be legally placed on the UK market, both now and in the future. Preventing the sale of unsafe electrical goods is clearly important to achieving this aim, but this extends to ensuring that all consumer products sold in the UK are safe. Existing product safety legislation places obligations on manufacturers, importers and distributors to ensure that consumer products are safe before they can be placed on the UK market. This applies to products sold both online and offline.

In common with the noble Lord, Lord Foster, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Khan, the Government also recognise that the rise of e-commerce presents a particular challenge. However, it is not true that the Government are doing nothing. They are undertaking a thorough review of the UK’s product safety framework, which includes an assessment of the impact of e-commerce.

Following a call for evidence last year, the Government are developing proposals for reform of the product safety framework and intend to consult in due course. This includes options to address the sale of unsafe products online. We are also taking forward a number of immediate actions. This includes implementing a programme of work focusing on the safety and compliance of goods sold by third-party sellers on online marketplaces.

I thank noble Lords for raising this important matter. However, the Government will not be supporting the amendment at this time, given the broader work as part of the product safety review and the existing regulatory controls that I have outlined.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

I am very grateful for what the Minister said the Government are doing, but before she moves on to the next amendment, can she give a clear indication of the timescale? Far too often we hear the phrase “in due course”—the Minister has herself used it. We all know what it means; can she give us something a little more concrete?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I am afraid I pushed my officials to give me a specific time. They have agreed that we may write with more details to give the noble Lord an indication of when this might be forthcoming.

On Amendment 112, I thank the noble Baroness for raising the important matter of the testing and certification of construction products. The Government are committed to reforming the regulatory framework for construction products and it is important that our approach to reform considers the system in the round and is based on engagement with stakeholders who make, distribute and use construction products.

We therefore do not believe that it is right to set a deadline of six months to introduce new measures, as this will constrain public debate. We intend to introduce a requirement for products to be corrected, withdrawn or recalled where they are not safe. This will deliver a greater practical benefit than publishing information about known safety concerns.

We recognise the importance of accurate, reliable performance information to support appropriate product choices. However, a product’s testing record is unlikely to provide useful information for this purpose. Instead, we will create a statutory list of “safety critical” products, where their failure would risk causing death or serious injury and require manufacturers to draw up a declaration of performance for these products. Dame Judith Hackitt’s review recommended that industry should develop a consistent labelling and traceability system for construction products. We agree that industry is best placed to develop an approach that will be effective in practice.

I could sense the frustration of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, with the language used in the Bill, specifically in Schedule 11. I am afraid that the “may versus must” argument recurs in many bits of legislation that I have taken through, and particularly here, when Dame Judith used “must” in her report. However, the whole reason we put “may” rather than “must” in legislation is that this approach is designed to allow the Secretary of State to review existing regulations, consult as needed and bring forward new regulations where needed. We clearly intend to use these powers and published draft regulations in October 2021. I recognise that that probably will not wholly satisfy the noble Baroness but it is as far as I may go.

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[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I think we are all grateful to the Minister for her remarks. It is clear that the Government share the concerns we have expressed about construction products, CO₂ monitors and, in relation to my amendment, electrical appliances. However, I have to say that I suspect there is deep concern in this Committee about the language the Minister used in relation to when any action will be taken. We have heard her say “in due course”, “as soon as parliamentary time allows”, “as soon as is practical” and so on. I am grateful that she said she will write to me on Amendment 111 to tell me when some of that action will take place, but I suspect there will be pressure for all these issues to be raised again at a later stage in the Bill’s passage.

In 20 seconds, I will beg leave to withdraw my amendment, but I first want to add a bit of light relief. The Minister’s ministerial colleague, who has told us that he is very tired today, is a great fan of Latin mottos and phrases. On Monday, the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, got Hebrew mottos in as well. I thought it might be helpful to look up an appropriate motto for an amendment to make electrical goods sold online safer, then realised that “electrical” and “online” were hardly likely to appear in Latin. However, much to my surprise, when I did a Google search, I found that I was able to get a Latin translation, which is most bizarre. I share with the Committee that, if we want to make an electrical good sold online safer, “fac tutius bona electrica online” is the motto we should be using. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 111 withdrawn.

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[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, before I remark on Amendments 122, 123 and 124, I express my surprise that we still have arrangements in our House whereby those who wish to contribute virtually do not appear to have the same flexibility as the rest of us to choose when they speak. I feel very sad for my noble friend Lady Brinton, whose support for these amendments I am enormously grateful for. She has to speak before those amendments have even been moved. I hope that the authorities will have a look at this.

I will make two apologies to the Committee. First, I have no Latin motto to offer the Minister on this occasion, unlike the previous one. Secondly, I fear that I cannot be quite as brief in speaking to these three amendments as I was when I spoke to the earlier one. As I said on the amendments that I previously raised, however, the number of fires in high-rise blocks with 10 or more flats has risen considerably year on year—this has been repeated subsequently by a number of noble Lords—with a rise of nearly 20% in the last two years. We also heard that, as I said, 53% of those fires are related to electrical faults.

In the debate on the previous amendment, I referred to electrical faults caused by faulty electrical appliances purchased online. These three amendments in my name raise the issue of faulty electrical installations. We can find ways of dealing with electrical appliances—I suggested a way of doing this in the previous amendment —but in building new blocks, electrical installations are installed and checks carried out on them, quite properly, to ensure that they meet all the necessary safety requirements.

I was pleased that, when I had the opportunity as a Minister for a brief period in the department, I was able to introduce some changes to those regulations to improve still further the safety of installations in new buildings. As we all know, however, over time those installations can be degraded; indeed, some can be damaged by work carried out by overenthusiastic DIYers and for a whole series of other purposes. It makes a great deal of sense to ensure that, from time to time, there are periodic checks of the electrical installations in flats in high-rise blocks—indeed, I would argue, in all properties.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I have not been drinking. I have had some Polos. In fact, I am not drinking anything at all.

I move on to the next campaign, which is electrical safety first. In fact, I am being bombarded with emails and letters. I promise noble Lords that I have had the briefing document from NAPIT—it followed up even today to check that I had it. That is also an incredible campaign.

I have to say that I particularly enjoyed the way the noble Lord, Lord Foster, introduced these amendments. His Amendments 122 and 123 have both been brought forward to ensure electrical safety in homes. I thank the noble Lord for raising this important matter and for his comments on the matter at Second Reading, but I am afraid that the Government cannot support these amendments.

We recognise the intention of these amendments, but we believe that they place a disproportionate burden on leaseholders in high-rise buildings. Under Amendment 122, high-rise leaseholders would be required to obtain and keep up to date an electrical installation condition report—an obligation we place on no other homeowner. Under Amendment 123, that obligation would also be placed on leaseholders who live in mixed-tenure high-rise buildings. “Mixed tenure” is defined as buildings where in addition to leaseholders there are also social housing or private rented tenancies. We believe that leaseholders living in their homes have a fundamental motivation to ensure that their home is safe and will take steps to ensure the safety of electrical installations. Therefore, we do not currently believe there is sufficient evidence to place further burdens on leaseholders in high-rise buildings.

I also assure the noble Lord that the intention of ensuring that residents take an active role in ensuring the safety of their building has already been met in the Bill. The Bill imposes a new active duty on residents not to create a significant risk of spread of fire or structural failure and empowers the accountable person to enforce these duties through the courts. These are systemic changes that are broader in scope than specific requirements for an electrical installation condition report; they will promote genuine collaboration between all parties in keeping their building safe.

The Government thank the noble Lord for raising this important point and will highlight in our guidance to accountable persons and residents the importance of considering electrical installations as part of their building safety decisions. With that assurance, I must ask him not to move his amendment.

On Amendment 124, I thank noble Lords for raising this important matter, but I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept this amendment. However, I can assure them that their intention is being met by the Government. In the Social Housing White Paper we committed to consult on electrical safety requirements in the social sector, and expert stakeholders participated in a Government-led working group last year to inform the content of that consultation. The working group considered the mandating of electrical safety inspections in all 4 million social homes, not just those in high-rise residential buildings, as moved by this amendment. The group also considered how to keep social housing residents safe from harm caused by faulty appliances. We will consider whether the best way forward to protect social residents from harm is to mandate checks and bring parity with standards in the private rented sector, and it is important that we work through all the issues to reach the right decision. The consultation will be published shortly.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

Oh!

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

“Shortly” is better than “in due course”.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

Absolutely.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Social homes are already safer than homes of other tenures in respect of electrical safety. In 2019, 71% of social homes had all five electrical safety features compared to 60% of owner occupied and 65% of private rented homes. Under obligations in the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, social landlords are required to keep electrical installations in repair, and the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act 2018 requires social landlords to keep homes free of electrical hazards.

With that explanation, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

121: After Clause 133, insert the following new Clause—
“Existing homes: standards
(1) This section applies to domestic properties that have been used as such since before this Act is passed.(2) The Secretary of State must ensure that—(a) all domestic properties achieve a minimum standard by 2035, and(b) those domestic premises that, because of their standard, present a serious risk to the health, wellbeing or safety of people living in them, that the occupant is unable to rectify for financial or other reasons, achieve a minimum standard by 2030,where practical, cost-effective and affordable.(3) In this section a “minimum standard” is the achievement by the property of—(a) Level C on an Energy Performance Certificate issued under section 43 of the Energy Act 2011 (domestic energy efficiency regulations) or any amendment to that section made by the Secretary of State by regulations; or(b) an equivalent level on any new method of measuring the energy efficiency of properties that may be adopted by the Secretary of State by regulations.(4) The duty in subsection (2) does not apply to a domestic property where the following exemptions apply—(a) an occupant or anyone else whose permission is needed for works to be carried out has explicitly refused such permission; or(b) it is not technically feasible to fulfil the duty; or(c) the cost of carrying out works to fulfil the duty would exceed £20,000. (5) The Secretary of State may by regulations add to or change the exemptions referred to in subsection (4).(6) The Secretary of State may by regulations define the terms “practical”, “cost-effective” and “affordable”.(7) In this section “wellbeing” includes the ability of an occupant to keep warm at reasonable cost.”Member’s explanatory statement
This Clause requires that existing homes achieve a minimum standard in order to protect the safety, health and wellbeing of occupants.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I will try my very best to be as quick as I can, as I have tried to in all my contributions. I began my last contribution with concern about the speaking order of Members. Can I just say that it was particularly disappointing to have to start speaking for this amendment knowing that, already, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, had indicated she will not be supporting it? I hope that by the end of my remarks, she might change her mind. I give way.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I owe the noble Lord an apology. It was my fault for getting it in the wrong order. I have been trying to be on the other Bill as well.

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[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

The noble Baroness is forgiven entirely, and let us hope she will come to support the amendment at the end.

The Bill is clear what it is about. It is to make provision about the safety of people in and around buildings and about the standards of buildings. As I said on Second Reading, it is surely relevant to consider the impact of poor-quality homes on the safety of people who live in them, not least given the claim by the Building Research Establishment that millions of individuals and families are living in unhealthy housing, a reality that is having a huge impact on the NHS. Even more worrying is the number of deaths caused by poor-quality homes. We know from the ONS figures that some 8,500 people died in the winter two years ago because of cold housing. They simply did not have sufficient money to keep their homes warm, and often that was because of poor insulation.

We still have in this country over 13.5 million homes that are deemed below what the Government have set as the acceptable energy performance level, that is band C on the energy performance rating. Of those, over 3 million homes are occupied by families deemed to be fuel poor, that is people who even without the rocketing bills that we are now experiencing simply cannot afford to stay warm. Far too many people in this country are having to choose between heating and eating. On Second Reading, I also pointed out, as others have done subsequently, that the removal of unsafe cladding is making the situation worse.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, I was horrified by the remarks of the group that runs the Pendleton tower block in the note that she mentioned, which gave tips about dressing in layers, wearing a hat and gloves, not drinking alcohol and so on. What the noble Baroness did not point out was that that note came to light in a meeting to discuss increasing the rent for residents in that block. It was absolutely condescending. We need to do more to help the fuel poor, as well as those having to deal with the removal of unsafe cladding. That means improving the energy efficiency of existing homes.

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[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, in my remarks, I went out of my way to praise the current Government for the promises and commitments they have made in this area. I will go further and say that I will praise the current Government for at least some of the commitments they have made to provide the funding for the work to be carried out. But I just say to the Minister that it is the industry that will actually deliver, not the Government. We therefore need to consider what the industry needs to ensure that it can deliver.

The industry has said that it wants these targets, promises and commitments put into primary legislation to give it the confidence to carry out the investment, buy the equipment and do the training to enable the work to be carried out. It has been let down time and again by Governments of all political persuasions, with a string of projects that sound almost the same—the green deal, the green this, the green whatever—which have always failed and have not been followed through. The industry has had enough; it has made that very clear. It wants the firm commitments put into legislation. The Business Minister, Mr Kwarteng, believes in targets; he has said so on many occasions. I fail to understand why the Government will not put this one specific issue into legislation.

We will have an opportunity to raise these issues again at a later stage. Be assured that I intend to take every opportunity to press this matter but, in the mean- time, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment 121 withdrawn.