European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 6th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I mean that seriously. However, it may be of assistance to your Lordships if I explain why I have tabled this amendment. It arises from an exchange we had in Committee when my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern queried why the letter the Prime Minister is required to send under the Schedule to this Bill did not include a reason. We had an exchange about how, if you had to have a reason, surely that would be a condition. He said that the reason is in the Bill.

The reason is indeed in the Bill; it is the bit I want to take out—page 2, line 14, from “2020” to the end of line 20. I am not sure how many of your Lordships have studied this and thought about its implications. It is written in language which makes it less easy to understand, but it is essentially saying that the letter has to be sent,

“in order to debate and pass a Bill to implement the agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, including provisions reflecting the outcome of inter-party talks as announced by the Prime Minister on 21 May 2019, and in particular the need for the United Kingdom to secure changes to the political declaration to reflect the outcome of those inter-party talks”.

It means we are asking the Prime Minister to send a letter saying not only that he wants to debate the May deal and the subsequent matters that were agreed between the parties but that he intends to pass a Bill, when he has made it absolutely clear that he is determined not to do that. More particularly, for those Members who have argued about the supremacy of the House of Commons, it is a deal which has been rejected by the House of Commons on three separate occasions.

Here we have a piece of legislation which, by agreement between the Front Benches, is being given safe passage—I certainly do not support the Bill but I do not wish to delay it, if that is what the Government want—but what on earth is going on with the Government? Why have they not tabled an amendment to take this out? It does not reflect their declared policy, nor the view that the House of Commons has taken on three separate occasions.

I therefore went to have a look at the Hansard of the House of Commons to find out how this had got into the Bill. It has done so by accident. The Labour Party’s position in the other place was to abstain on this matter. Its author—showing that some families stick together—was a certain Stephen Kinnock.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

He is a very good chap.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend Lord Cormack says that he is a very good chap. I know we are a broad church, but—.

Stephen Kinnock is quoted as saying on this matter:

“I understand that our position at the present time would be to abstain, but I am not 100% sure of that”.—[Official Report, Commons, 4/9/19; col. 262.]


My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay corrected me, quite rightly, when in Committee I said that the Government had failed to put in tellers for the Division—although I am confused because in my day, only the Government proposed Business Motions and matters of that kind. However, it was of course the promoters of the Bill who failed to provide tellers for the Division, which is how this has ended up in the Bill.

We therefore have a provision in that Clause of the Bill which the Labour Party did not want—it was going to abstain on it—and the Government cannot possibly have wanted. I am as good as my word—I said that I would not seek to delay the implementation of this legislation, if that is what has been agreed between the parties—but that strikes me as extraordinary. I did not table an amendment in Committee, which in the normal way I would have done, because I expected the Government to put down an amendment to deal with this, and they have not done so. I say to my noble friend that we would be very grateful indeed if he could explain why the Government are leaving in a Bill which they are proposing to support, a provision which requires the Prime Minister to write a letter for the purpose of giving an undertaking to debate and pass a Bill to implement the so-called May compromise agreement, including the discussions that took place between the previous Prime Minister and the Labour Party, which include giving assurances about regulatory requirements and the rest. It seems extraordinary, and that is the reason behind the amendment, which I beg to move.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I very much hope that the House will not be seduced by the silver tongue of my noble friend Lord Mackay of Drumlean.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 6th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the problem we have today is that we are constrained on time. That is entirely the fault of the Government for deciding that Prorogation should take place next week. Therefore, we are in something of a constraint. We owe a great deal to my noble friend the Chief Whip, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and those who reached a sensible compromise solution in the early hours of Thursday morning. We are grateful to them. They say, and I accept, that we need to conclude proceedings on the Bill today. This is because of the Prorogation guillotine, which was announced by the Prime Minister two weeks after he decided to do it—we know that from the depositions in the Scottish court.

I regret that there is no Minister to reply to these debates. It is frankly an insult to the House and I deeply regret it. But when he was here yesterday my noble friend Lord Callanan made it quite plain that he knew that our European friends and neighbours would accept two things. One was the revocation of Article 50. Clearly that will not happen and I do not want it to happen, but he also made it plain that the deal that had been on the table—Prime Minister May’s deal—was still possible. He also made the point that he had enthusiastically promoted it, as indeed he had. All members—I correct myself—most members of Mrs May’s Government promoted it valiantly.

I believe that we now have the opportunity under the Bill, imperfectly drafted as I acknowledge it is, with the Kinnock amendment, to bring the Theresa May deal back and enable this Parliament to make a decision with a fourth vote on it. I am bound to say that I believe it will be a service to the country to do that. As I said yesterday, it is only the beginning of the beginning, because there are many more rounds of negotiations to take place, but it would at least mean that we had something that had been supported by the present Prime Minister and Mr Rees-Mogg in the third vote, so clearly they believed it was the right thing to do at that time. I wish we could now get on and do it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I entirely agree with my noble friend on the subject of getting on with discussing these amendments and their nature, but is he seriously arguing that if a problem that affects our national interest arises from the drafting of the Bill, we should just ignore it and allow it to go forward? It is perfectly possible for the sponsors of the Bill to agree the amendment, for it to go to the House of Commons, come back and for it all to be covered before Prorogation, particularly since both Front Benches have agreed to take whatever measures are necessary to try to expedite it. It is perfectly possible. Surely we need to address the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and other Members of the House have identified. All this repetition of all the arguments we have already had for the past three years is, frankly, a waste of time. We are at the final point now and we need to put the Bill on the statute book, but in a way that makes sense. We cannot as a House say that we are going to pass imperfect legislation because the Government were responsible for Prorogation.

[Lord Cormack]

That was a fairly lengthy intervention, but the fact of the matter is that we have been placed in a straitjacket by the Government’s decision on Prorogation. We have an agreement between the two Front Benches here. That is why we should move forward and get the Bill on to the statute book as quickly as possible.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I agree with much of what my noble friend has said about procedure. I think it would be a good thing for the Front Benches to agree and for the Bill being considered by the House of Commons to make its passage, and for the Opposition leader to agree—we hear different things at different time—to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to take his case to the voters on a timetable, preferably on my birthday: 16 October. I think we would win a great victory and it would be a great celebration as I reach the age of 65. There is an opportunity here, and I very much welcome the fact that he is asking the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the guillotine Motion, which has nothing to do with the Bill that is coming here and nothing to do with whether the House of Commons decides to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to take his case to the country.

[Lord Cormack]

I am very glad to have the support of my noble friend and I look forward to being invited to his 65th birthday, when he will be 15 years my junior. His support is very welcome, because we do not always agree on everything.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, has my noble friend seen the reports in the press suggesting that some Members of the Opposition might seize control of the agenda in this House—I understood that we were given an undertaking that that would never happen again—and use that opportunity to introduce a guillotine to this House for the first time? Does he not agree that the very purpose of this House arises from the fact that the guillotine in the Commons results in Bills coming to us that have not been properly scrutinised, and that therefore the introduction of any guillotine to this House would destroy its very purpose and create a precedent that would have serious, almost constitutionally outrageous, implications?

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I do not always agree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, but I entirely endorse what he said about guillotines in your Lordships’ House. However, I wish to ask a different question of my noble friend, to whom I also offer warm congratulations, as I offer warm felicitations to my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. On Thursday, two important debates are down in the names of private Members. Clearly, between them they will take some five hours. Should urgent business be brought before your Lordships’ House, having been endorsed in another place, can my noble friend assure the House that the business will be rearranged? It really would be utterly absurd if we did not begin a debate on a crucial national emergency until something like 6 pm on a Thursday, especially as the Friday sitting has now been cancelled. We have a duty to look at things carefully, and we should also look at them when we are not all too exhausted.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I accept the result of the referendum, as my noble friend knows only too well, but the people did not vote to leave without a deal. The amendment would make sure that if the country leaves without a deal, it leaves without one but with parliamentary approval. That is the substance of the amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I turn to the use of the phrase, “leaving without a deal”. Deals have already been made on citizenship, flying planes and access to ports. There is no deal. If my noble friend is saying that we must defend parliamentary democracy by voting for a deal in the form of the withdrawal agreement, which was overwhelmingly rejected, I think that he has got himself into something of a tangle. It is totally inappropriate for this amendment to be added to a fast-track Bill about Northern Ireland. The amendment would pursue some will-o’-the wisp notion that Parliament will somehow need to be prorogued so that we can leave the European Union on 31 October. Parliament has already voted overwhelmingly for us to do that and 31 October is the deadline which has been set by the European Union.

I give way to my noble friend. We have all the usual suspects in this debate.

Liaison Committee

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Monday 1st July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I hope that I am not jumping the gun but, as the Senior Deputy Speaker has raised the issue, and speaking as chairman of the Economic Affairs Committee, perhaps I may thank the Senior Deputy Speaker for the excellent work he has done in looking at the composition of the committees and considering reforms. I know that he is not responsible for this, but no fewer than six members of the Economic Affairs Committee—that is, half the committee excluding the chairman—are required to leave the committee, and are being replaced by six excellent good men and true, but they are all men. As chairman of a public company, I am expected in appointments to the board to take account of diversity and gender balance. I am also expected to look at the board as a whole and consider the skills that are present. While we are telling the rest of the world to adopt procedures that are perhaps more in line with modern corporate governance, our own procedures do not allow for this.

I am not in any way criticising the Deputy Speaker or any of the names suggested for the Economic Affairs Committee, all of whom are excellent, but the fact is that these names emerge from party sources and there is no consideration of the overall balance or the range of skills being provided—or indeed the impact on the committee of losing six very good people all at once. In the case of my committee, that impact is considerable. Now, we are where we are, but we do need to look at this in the longer term.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend, Lord Forsyth, with whom I do not always agree but I do emphatically on this occasion. I am troubled by one or two issues here. First, as the Senior Deputy Speaker has pointed out, we should be doing this at the beginning of a new session. This session has gone on and on and has certainly earned a place in the history books, even though it has not perhaps earned its place for parliamentary excellence. I am very troubled by all the talk about prorogation. I would like an assurance from someone on the Government Front Bench—not, of course, the Senior Deputy Speaker, who is not in a position to deal with this point—that the present Government have absolutely no intention of bringing this Session to an end at a time that would be convenient for the Government but not for Parliament.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I will give way in a second. There has been a conspiracy where Members of both Houses have sought from the beginning to frustrate what 17.4 million people voted for. I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Robathan that this has done huge damage to Parliament and people’s trust in politics. In this unelected House, some Members glory in the fact that they have been able to undermine what a huge majority in the House of Commons voted for in asking us to accept our fate of being told what to do for the next two years against what people voted for in a democratic vote.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am unable to assist the noble Lord. I have no idea why the Prime Minister has done a whole load of things throughout this process. It has brought us to a very poor position.

[Lord Cormack]

My noble friend is waxing eloquent about conspiracies. What about the conspiracy of the ERG, which sought to take over the Conservative Party in another place?

[Lord Cormack]

Oh yes it is. My noble friend has supported the ERG throughout, as far as I understand it. He has always ignored those of us who have totally accepted the result of the referendum. If he had read a single one of my speeches in these debates, he would know that we want a seemly Brexit that recognises the interests of the 16 million people concerned about a decision they thought was mistaken. Where is my noble friend’s allegiance to democracy in all that?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend described members of the ERG as being involved in a conspiracy because they sought to ensure what every single Conservative Member of Parliament stood on—a manifesto that said we would leave the single market and the customs union. I describe that as an act of integrity—of keeping their word to the people who elected them. For my noble friend to suggest that he has always been in favour of this and has been working assiduously to deliver what they stood for election on is beyond parody.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, this withdrawal agreement or proposal does not deliver what 17.4 million people voted for. It is a Trojan horse, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, said, at the centre of our constitution and threatens our very existence as a self-governing and independent United Kingdom. We are told by the Prime Minister and, indeed, the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, that we should support it in the national interest.

[Lord Cormack]

Yes.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, assents. Is it in the national interest to abandon any say in making our laws in vital areas during the transition period and to pay a staggering £39 billion as the price of our emasculation? That is more than £2,200 for every person who voted leave in the referendum. Every penny of it will have to be borrowed and paid back by the young people who have featured in so many of the speeches this evening. Just think how a fraction of this sum could be used for huge benefit in our schools, or to repair the damage caused by the cuts to welfare and universal credit.

Is it in the national interest to enter into a legally binding agreement from which we will have no unilateral right to withdraw, to bind the hands of future Parliaments and to make us reliant on the permission of a foreign power or court to fulfil our manifesto promises? Is it in the national interest to risk fracturing our United Kingdom by making Northern Ireland a rule-taker in further areas, including goods, agricultural products and VAT? The backstop provides for an all-UK customs union and regulatory alignment in Northern Ireland—a gift to the Scottish separatists and, along with the backsliding on fishing rights, a slap in the face for the 13 Scottish Tory MPs elected to preserve our union and save us from a Corbyn coalition Government. It is not just for the Scottish separatists. As we heard, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is already on to the opportunities to argue the case for Welsh nationalists on the back of these proposals. It is a total betrayal of the Democratic Unionist Party, which was assured that no unionist—indeed, no Prime Minister—could ever countenance a border in the Irish Sea, so eloquently explained by the noble Lords, Lord Browne of Belmont and Lord McCrea, in an outstanding maiden speech.

This is a hokey-cokey agreement, leaving our country half in and half out of a failing organisation in defiance of a promise given by a Conservative Government—indeed, by all political parties—that they would implement whatever the people decided in the referendum. We spent nearly £10 million of taxpayers’ money putting leaflets through every door giving that promise. Now people are prepared to cast it aside. We were told that no deal is better than a bad deal. Now, apparently, the national interest requires us to accept that a bad deal is better than no deal. We were told that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Now it seems that everything is agreed for nothing. It seems we have stumbled into an episode of “Yes Minister”, where it is being argued that it is necessary for us to leave in order to remain. There is still time for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet to change course and keep faith with those 17.4 million people who were promised that, if they followed us, we would give them their country back.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I feel sometimes in this House that one has wandered into the film “Groundhog Day”; one hears the same arguments over and over again. I thought I might actually address the Bill.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Alli, that I thought we were debating the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill which, on my reading, simply seeks to ensure that we have in place the necessary legal framework when we leave the European Union, which the other place voted for overwhelmingly when it agreed that we would give notice under Article 50. I have no idea why an amendment about membership of the EEA has any relevance whatever to the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Alli, said, it is the job of this House to ask the House of Commons to think again: but to think again about the legislation we are actually debating, not policy matters which Members of this House do not agree with. That is what the noble Lord is doing.

For brass neck, the noble Lord really takes the prize when he stands up to criticise the Government for not being clear about what they want to achieve. They are pretty clear about it: they want a negotiation which will ensure the best deal for our country. That is not helped by the noble Lords, Lord Alli and Lord Mandelson, and others who are seeking to undermine their negotiating position by passing amendments of this kind.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In a second. It is not helping at all to be giving the impression that this House has a different view from the elected House of Commons.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In a second. My noble friend has quite a lot to say, and I am sure I will give way to him in a moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend says “A meaningful vote” from a sedentary position. By that he means a vote to reverse what the British people voted for in a referendum. There will be a vote on the negotiation and on the agreements which have been reached. I urge this House not to undermine the position of the Government in their negotiations or that of the Prime Minister by seeking to argue that her objectives cannot be achieved.

[Lord Cormack]

I am grateful, and at this point an intervention is appropriate. If anybody is undermining the Government at the moment, it is the Foreign Secretary rubbishing the Prime Minister. My noble friend, who is a brilliant debater—I am delighted to be able to debate with him—is arguing for a cause but completely missing the point. I ask him just to reflect: what sort of example are we being given by a Cabinet that is rent asunder by the Foreign Secretary, the second most important member of the Government, rubbishing the Prime Minister in the Daily Mail?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I know that my noble friend is not very keen on the Foreign Secretary, and that he has made a number of attacks on Boris Johnson in this House, including calling on the Government to sack him. I point out that Boris Johnson played an important part in the referendum campaign and that the people voted—

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

Yes, but it is therefore contradictory to have a specific date written in the Bill because the Government are answerable to Parliament and Parliament is sovereign, as we have said many times over the past few weeks; it seems like an eternity. The one message we should convey is that we should not seek to tie the hands of those who are negotiating. We will do so if we put a particular date in the Bill. Failure to reach agreement by that date will then be trumpeted abroad as a failure. None of us wants that. There must be flexibility.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

With respect, my noble friend has not dealt with the point made by my noble friend Lord Lamont. He says that Parliament must have sovereignty but the House of Commons amended the Bill to allow Ministers to change the order if necessary. That would require the approval of Parliament, so what is he talking about?

[Lord Cormack]

Very simply, I am talking about the fact that the Bill, as it is before the Committee, has a specific date in it. The purpose of these amendments—tabled by my noble friend the Duke of Wellington and others—has been to give the flexibility that the Bill does not allow at the moment. I am surprised if my noble friend cannot see that. I am not arguing against the prudent and excellent speech made by my noble friend Lord Tugendhat. He made the point as effectively as anybody could. Therefore, let us try to unite on Report around an amendment that will give the additional flexibility that changes in the other place have not given.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

So what? It was not a health and safety measure; it was an employment law measure. The point that I made still stands.

I hope that we will not spend any more time discussing this second referendum, which is just an attempt by people in this House, who are unelected, to subvert the decision made by the British people.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, last week we had an interesting debate on what should happen if Parliament was given a take-it-or-leave-it decision. There was considerable support for the point of view that I sought to put forward with the support of many other noble Lords, which is that we should maintain our membership, suspend Article 50 and tell the Government to try again. I believe that that is the right course because Parliament is sovereign. I believe very strongly that the plebiscite is inimical to parliamentary representative democracy. I also believe that, because Parliament is sovereign, it can make what decision it wishes. We are talking about Parliament and not about the Executive. Throughout our debates, we have had a disturbing series of illustrations that the Government believe that the Executive are supreme. It is not; it is Parliament that is supreme.

We will not have a vote tonight, because these are probing amendments. But were we to have one, I would not vote for the amendment—not because I am completely out of sympathy with many of the points that were eloquently made by the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes, and by others who have spoken in the same way, but because I believe it is premature to put an amendment of this nature into this Bill at this time. It is crucial that we do not undermine, but underpin, the sovereignty of Parliament, which is what we should be doing when we come to votes on Report. There will be votes, and I am quite sure I will be supporting a number of the amendments.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Cormack

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend mentioned VAT. Is that not an example of where Parliament no longer has the power to reduce the rate of VAT below 5% because we have given that to the European Union? Is not our leaving the European Union an example of restoring the authority of Parliament to impose taxes?

[Lord Cormack]

Our leaving the European Union is an exceptionally unfortunate measure that will do great damage to this country, in my opinion. But the answer to my noble friend’s specific question is that it was enacted by Parliament—a Parliament of which he was not a Member but of which my noble friend Lord Deben and I were—and that, knowing the consequences, we voted for it because we believed that it was in the general interest of our country. We were behaving as Members of the House of Commons should behave. It was properly debated, thoroughly approved and it came on to the statute books as other things have done.

I go back to what I was saying when my noble friend interrupted me. We have a duty to protect and to urge the other place not to abdicate the central power of an elected House—to deal with taxation. I hope that when my noble friend replies we will have a slightly more satisfactory and understanding reply than we had last Wednesday. I hope, too, that he will ensure, if not today, that we have a glossary of all these terms, including charges, fees, taxes, contributions and levies. At the end of the day they all mean something very similar: imposing an obligation to pay. People should never fall under that obligation unless it is imposed by their representatives in Parliament. We have a duty, as the second Chamber—the unelected Chamber—to say to our colleagues at the other end of the Corridor, “Please do not abdicate; please flex your muscles; please do not give to Ministers—the 109 whom we talked about the other night—or to other bodies or authority a power that is only rightly yours”.