Sewage Pollution: Lakes and Rivers

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Regarding one of the issues the noble Baroness raises, we now have a lot more information available to us to look at. When we did not have storm overflow discharge information, we were ignorant of the amount of sewage that was going into our rivers, lakes and other waterways. If you look at the results for the bathing water test, for example, you can see a significant improvement over the last 15 years because of all the measures we put in.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does my noble friend not recognise that we will make no progress on this matter until the directors of the water companies are held personally responsible and they are fined, instead of the consumer having to pick up the cost of the fine?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right, and that is why the Government have taken a number of actions recently to introduce restrictions on dividends and bonuses. I will take his point about personal responsibility back to the department.

Met Office: 2023 Temperatures

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Again, I will write to the right reverend Prelate in due course. I am doing rather a lot of writing today, am I not? This is a broad subject which I am slowly getting my head around.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question from the right reverend Prelate, is it not important that everyone realises that passing on the cost to consumers is not unfair—this is what is going to happen? In pursuing our policy, we have to be aware of this cost and phase it in over time. It is completely irresponsible to move ahead of people’s ability to pay.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. The communication on this transition has not been entirely well presented. A transition to a green energy future is going to cost a significant amount of money. I concur with my noble friend’s view on this.

Water Pollution

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

When I watched the “Panorama” programme, I too was left with the distinct impression that something fishy was going on. However, it is standard practice for the initial and final categorisations to be different. This is because the initial categorisation is based on the information provided in an initial report. An Environment Agency officer will then gather evidence about the incident from a variety of sources, including attendants at the most significant pollution events. They will then assess this information and give a final categorisation that is based on the evidence rather than on the initial estimate.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, we made no progress on health and safety until we made company directors personally responsible. It is no good relying on a system of fines, because that just ends up putting up consumers’ bills. Now that my noble friend is in his new position, would he look at the prospect of holding boards to account for their performance in this regard? It would change the whole nature of their attitudes. On his point about something fishy going on, the point of this is that all the fish are dying.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

As the former chair of the Atlantic Salmon Trust, I have some sympathy with my noble friend’s view. The Government have legislated to introduce unlimited penalties on water companies. I appreciate my noble friend’s point, but we have made a start in the right direction. A much wider range of issues can now be applied by the Environment Agency to hold water companies to account. As I stated at the beginning, the Government are acutely aware that the position is not satisfactory and are looking into the matter, with all seriousness.

Clothing Sales: Sustainability

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We have made some progress. The Textiles 2030 policy, promoted by WRAP, helps signatories to reduce their water and carbon footprints per tonne of clothing by 18.2% and 21% respectively. We want to help local authorities with the work that they are doing and they are being funded to bring forward changes to packaging recycling collections through the extended producer responsibility payments. Separate food waste collections will be funded via new burdens payments, and new collection requirements for consistency in recycling for households in England will come in shortly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, following on from the question from my noble friend Lady Jenkin, might we all be able to avoid buying new clothes if the authorities in this House did something about the moths?

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

Horticultural Peat

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness has made the point that I am about to make rather better than I will, and that is that we need to do all of these things. We need carbon capture and storage, because that will be a big part of dealing with our greenhouse gas emissions and protecting our environment, including our peatlands. I am sorry that this Government annoy her; I live for the moment when she and her Green Party colleague stand up and congratulate the Government on having serious targets for protecting our peatland and addressing climate change in a way that no other country is.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not accept that one of the reasons he is able to pass laws and deal with this in a balanced manner is he has the freedom to do so because we have left the European Union?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I did not see that one coming. I may have been on a different side to my noble friend but I can tell him that, on environmental issues, I am enjoying the freedom that I have, both nationally and internationally, to take action to protect our environment.

Scotland: Bottle Deposit Return Scheme

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effect of the Scottish Government’s bottle deposit return scheme upon (1) the internal market between Scotland and England and (2) UK manufacturers, businesses and consumers.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, as waste policy is a devolved matter, the Scottish Government have opted to roll out a DRS independently of the rest of the UK, due to launch on 16 August this year. We remain in close contact with officials and industry to learn from the delivery of the Scottish scheme and align on key decisions wherever possible.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, that Answer simply is not good enough. This is a unilateral scheme that has been completely ill thought out. Indeed, one of the candidates for the SNP leadership has said it should be cancelled. The deadline for businesses to register is tomorrow. It means a death sentence for small producers of beverages and price increases for Scottish consumers, and it drives a coach and horses through the UK internal market. It requires an opt-out from the internal market Act to proceed. Will my noble friend throw a lifeline to those businesses and consumers?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Let us see whether I can try to encourage my noble friend with this reply. The Government have not yet received an official ministerial request from the Scottish Government for a United Kingdom internal market exemption. There have been discussions at official level. He is entirely right to point out the failures of the Scottish scheme and the impact it will have on Scottish businesses. In November some 600 businesses wrote to the Scottish Minister outlining various reasons why the deposit return scheme is going to fail in Scotland. These include a risk of fraud, major losses in consumer spend, loss of investment in the Scottish economy, and financial and environmental implications for local authorities.

I have to wait and see whether the Scottish Government apply for a UKIM exemption, and then I can answer my noble friend’s question. One of the front-runners to lead the SNP has announced that if it rolls out in Scotland in August as planned, it will create “carnage”. I agree.

Water Companies: Pollution Penalties

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The review is looking at everything. There is no attempt to resile from that figure. That figure relates to one area of sanction. It may be that we should look at unlimited fines to be decided by the courts. We are not suggesting a floor or a ceiling at this stage, but we want to ensure that water companies that knowingly, incompetently and against permitted agreements release sewage into our water and environment are sanctioned. I assure the noble Baroness that there is no attempt to resile from this.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, am I alone in wondering how it can make sense to impose large fines on companies when investment is required and that money is no longer available, rather than holding the management and the directors responsible personally to account?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think that fines have their place. Certainly, how we have changed the rules in terms of, first, how the Environment Agency can recover the costs of doing inspections and, secondly, how the fines that it recovers can be spent on the natural environment and improving it is entirely right. We are determined to see continuing investment. We have the largest investment in our water sector now: £56 billion. That will continue, but we must be able to fine those companies that breach the rules, and that is what we are doing.

Climate Change

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right in her assessment. The Dasgupta review and other work has indicated the impact that global warming will have on our ecosystems and economy. The CCC has identified eight priority areas for urgent attention and considered 61 UK-wide climate risks and opportunities cutting across multiple sectors. We are looking at every risk and tackling those eight priorities, four of which come directly under Defra and all of which are cross-government.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not recognise that, since the climate change conference, one of the risks that we need to be concerned about is security of supply for the energy that we need to keep people warm and keep our economy operating? Does he not think that this might be the moment when we should refresh our ideas on whether we allow fracking and the exploration of gas in our own resources so that we can maintain that security of supply?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The greatest stability in an unstable world is for us to decarbonise our economy as much as we can and become less reliant on other countries, or indeed on hydrocarbons, for our future. The Government’s strategy thus far has been absolutely right, and we will continue to make sure that our economy is resilient to the kind of global instability that we are experiencing at the moment.

Hunting Trophies

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I have read some of the speculation in the press, but this is not something that has come to me in my department as part of these discussions. We will see in the near future whether the noble Baroness is right or wrong when this legislation is published and pre-legislative discussions have taken place.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, if people do not like the process by which foie gras is made, the option is not to buy and not to eat it and we do not need the Government to ban it?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Government are bringing in a range of animal welfare measures. We have a proud tradition in this country across parties of having concern for animal welfare. There is a long list of measures that the Government can take, have taken and will take. When the animals abroad Bill is published, everything in it has to be seen in relation to a much wider determination to protect animal welfare.

Fishing: France

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

On the vessel that has been seized, I cannot give the noble Baroness that assurance at the moment, but I can promise that we are working closely to find out some rather complex details that lie behind it. I can assure her that we are talking regularly across government and directly with the Commission. Madame Girardin, who is the French Minister, has the number of my ministerial colleague, Victoria Prentis, on speed dial. We will continue to talk to the Commission, which is the responsible body, to resolve this.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend join me and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans in congratulating the Prime Minister on his robust stance in the interests of British fishermen? As for those in this House who seem to think that the fault lies on our side, might he reflect on the remarks by the French Prime Minister that somehow Brussels should punish us for following the democratic wishes of the British people? Will he urge the European Union to stand up for democracy and against this kind of blackmail?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Commission has a duty to abide by the trade and co-operation agreement and discussions are now taking place on that. I hope that all sides of the House have been disappointed by some of the rhetoric that has been coming our way. I am pleased that the Prime Minister had a thorough and open conversation with President Macron in Rome, and those conversations will no doubt continue in Glasgow.