Water Bills

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The Drinking Water Inspectorate is responsible for the quality of the water we drink. Our water in this country is among the highest in quality in the world, along with 10 other countries, so the quality of our drinking water is absolutely immaculate. The issue we have is the quality of water in our waterways and watercourses—and that is the situation we are improving through the Bill that is going through at the moment and through the wider review that we will take part in shortly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not incredibly naive for people to believe that water prices are not going to go up when this House has almost unanimously said that there needs to be huge additional investment to deal with water quality? The difference between a privatised system in England and a state system in Scotland is that the money will come from the private sector as well as consumers and not take money from the health service and other public services.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Clearly, what we are aiming to do at the moment is to increase investment into our water companies. Without that increased investment, which will need to come from private sources, as the noble Lord says, we cannot make the infrastructure improvements that we so badly need.

Wild Atlantic Salmon

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Grand Committee

Asked by

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to protect wild Atlantic salmon populations.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to talk about the future of this wonderful fish, the Atlantic salmon. I declare some interests: my family have a week timeshare on the Tay and, as Secretary of State, I set up a task force to look at the future of the salmon, under Lord Nickson, who produced an excellent report, most of the recommendations of which have yet to be implemented more than 25 years later.

I have fished for salmon in both the United Kingdom and Iceland for some 27 years and, during that period, there has been what can only be described as a catastrophic decline in the numbers of salmon. Indeed, the United Nations has now decided that the Atlantic salmon is an endangered species, putting it in the same category as mountain gorillas, rhinos and lots of other animals. I suggest that, if people realised how threatened it is, this would be a much bigger issue of public debate. It is just unanswerable that urgent intervention is now required to save this fish.

What does that mean? Personally, I think it means that no wild fish should ever be killed. It means that we have to tackle the predators of salmon: the fish-eating birds and the seals. When I was Secretary of State, the Canadians had an interesting programme where they fired contraceptive darts to reduce the population, which also helps the seal population if it becomes excessive, which it is.

The most important thing is that we need cold, clean water. I very much welcome the Minister’s efforts to ensure that the water companies and their directors could find themselves in jail for continuing to pollute our rivers in the way they do. It is essential that the habitat is as clean as possible: although this is a strong fish, it is very sensitive.

We also need to think carefully about the sensitive use of hatcheries. We need to work out what we are doing here. Are we interested in creating ranching for people to catch fish, or are we interested in having conservation of this important animal? I believe the emphasis should be on the latter, not the former.

We need to understand more carefully what is going on at sea. Why do the return rates continue to fall? We need to have action on identifying those rates and what can be done about this.

The most important thing is tackling salmon farming, getting it out of open cages in the sea and on to the land—some people are already beginning to experiment with that. I remember my great friend, the late Orri Vigfússon, who did so much to save the salmon, talking to me about these possibilities more than a decade ago. We need to get on with that. I do not normally promote books, but I recommend The New Fish—noble Lords can find it on Amazon. I promise that, if they read that book, which details what is going on with salmon farming, they will never eat farmed salmon again.

This is a story of chemicals being poured on fish in order to deal with their lice, of the excessive use of antibiotics, of stock losses of as much as a quarter, and of fish being eaten alive. They market this product as Scottish salmon, but it is no more Scottish than anything else. It is actually a Norwegian salmon that has been created by genetic engineering to grow quickly in order to meet the needs of production. As such, if it escapes into the wild, it does huge damage to salmon populations. Recently in Iceland there was an escape from a salmon farm, and 1% of the population turned up to protest at the Icelandic parliament because of the damaging effects. Frogmen were employed in the rivers more than 100 kilometres away from the escape point in order to spearhead the salmon before they bred with the domestic salmon—the unique river salmon —with huge and damaging consequences.

The fact is that the previous Government, whom I blame for this, did so little to engage with the devolved Administrations to make sure that we regulate this industry, which is a filthy, polluting activity that is doing enormous damage, and not just to salmon. We find lobsters and crabs with their shells half eaten away because of the consequences of the chemicals used to cope with the lice on the salmon.

There is not much time, and I want to leave time for others, but my message is this: the salmon is in danger of disappearing altogether. I do not want my grandchildren to be unable to fish for salmon or see a leaping salmon in Scotland. It is iconic—an important creature that has been in Scotland since the ice age and in southern rivers such as the Test and the Itchen since before the age ice, for millions of years. These fish are important, and it is high time that people looked at what is going on under the water and took some action to rescue this great and wonderful creature.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a very important point. I thank him for reminding me of it.

The noble Lord, Lord Roborough, also talked about the impact of barriers. Between 2019 and 2023, the Environment Agency and its partner organisations mitigated 58 barriers on England’s salmon rivers. Following that, the Environment Agency is conducting a review of further barriers to fish passage and intends to make recommendations on what government support is required to further move this on. We will consider that in due course.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, talked about hatcheries and stocking. NASCO has this year reviewed and updated its stocking guidance to further clarify the risks associated with stocking practices and appropriate mitigations. This is something else that the Environment Agency is reviewing.

The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised the issue of the River Wye, which is an issue that we fully recognise. Natural Resources Wales and the Environment Agency are working with a number of different agencies and organisations. I am sure he is very aware of this, but I would be very happy to work with him to move forward with this issue, if he has input that he can bring.

The noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, mentioned sand-eels. I am afraid I will have to write to him on that matter.

Finally, my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours asked some detailed and specific questions. With the limited time I have—I have only a few seconds left—I will have to respond to him in detail in writing.

To conclude, I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for securing this important debate. I assure all noble Lords that I am committed to taking action in this area.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I think we still have some time, so can I just pick the noble Baroness up on the point she made about predators and how some of them are protected? That is indeed the case, but it is because they are protected that the populations have grown so strongly. It makes them a great threat to this fish, which is an endangered species.

I will also pick up the point that she made about devolved matters. Now that this has been designated as an endangered species, and with the Government’s international treaty obligations to deal with that issue, surely it is incumbent on her and her department to bring the devolved nations together, as she indicated she was prepared to do, to work out a plan so that the United Kingdom’s international responsibilities in respect of protecting and maintaining biodiversity are met.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Lord just made some really important points. I am extremely keen to do joined-up work with the devolved Administrations because that is the way we move forward, particularly on issues such as this. As I said, I will write to the relevant Minister in the Scottish Parliament to look for a meeting. If we are to make progress on these kinds of issues, we have to work together. It is the only way we will move forward.

Water Companies: Financial Resilience

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his very warm welcome. However, the Government have no plans to nationalise Thames Water. It would cost billions of pounds and take years to unpick the current ownership model, during which time underinvestment in infrastructure and sewage pollution would only get worse. We want to improve the situation in the water industry that we find ourselves in as quickly as possible.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to the Front Bench, but does she accept that simply fining the water companies for not meeting their obligations just adds to the costs of the consumer? Until we do as we have done with health and safety, which is to make the directors personally liable, we will make no progress. Have the Government any plans to do this?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The water special measures Bill that we will bring in front of your Lordships shortly is going to deliver on our manifesto commitment. As well as strengthening regulation, it is designed to make sure that the water industry will be fundamentally changed and transformed. It will ensure that water company bosses are not rewarded with bonuses if a serious environmental breach is committed. It will strengthen and enhance the ability of regulators to bring robust charges against water companies and executives when they have committed offences, including through automatic and severe fines. It will also require that water companies install real-time monitors, so that we can actually see what is going on. I also reassure the noble Lord that this is just a start.

Sewage Pollution: Lakes and Rivers

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Regarding one of the issues the noble Baroness raises, we now have a lot more information available to us to look at. When we did not have storm overflow discharge information, we were ignorant of the amount of sewage that was going into our rivers, lakes and other waterways. If you look at the results for the bathing water test, for example, you can see a significant improvement over the last 15 years because of all the measures we put in.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does my noble friend not recognise that we will make no progress on this matter until the directors of the water companies are held personally responsible and they are fined, instead of the consumer having to pick up the cost of the fine?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right, and that is why the Government have taken a number of actions recently to introduce restrictions on dividends and bonuses. I will take his point about personal responsibility back to the department.

Met Office: 2023 Temperatures

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Again, I will write to the right reverend Prelate in due course. I am doing rather a lot of writing today, am I not? This is a broad subject which I am slowly getting my head around.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question from the right reverend Prelate, is it not important that everyone realises that passing on the cost to consumers is not unfair—this is what is going to happen? In pursuing our policy, we have to be aware of this cost and phase it in over time. It is completely irresponsible to move ahead of people’s ability to pay.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. The communication on this transition has not been entirely well presented. A transition to a green energy future is going to cost a significant amount of money. I concur with my noble friend’s view on this.

Water Pollution

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

When I watched the “Panorama” programme, I too was left with the distinct impression that something fishy was going on. However, it is standard practice for the initial and final categorisations to be different. This is because the initial categorisation is based on the information provided in an initial report. An Environment Agency officer will then gather evidence about the incident from a variety of sources, including attendants at the most significant pollution events. They will then assess this information and give a final categorisation that is based on the evidence rather than on the initial estimate.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, we made no progress on health and safety until we made company directors personally responsible. It is no good relying on a system of fines, because that just ends up putting up consumers’ bills. Now that my noble friend is in his new position, would he look at the prospect of holding boards to account for their performance in this regard? It would change the whole nature of their attitudes. On his point about something fishy going on, the point of this is that all the fish are dying.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

As the former chair of the Atlantic Salmon Trust, I have some sympathy with my noble friend’s view. The Government have legislated to introduce unlimited penalties on water companies. I appreciate my noble friend’s point, but we have made a start in the right direction. A much wider range of issues can now be applied by the Environment Agency to hold water companies to account. As I stated at the beginning, the Government are acutely aware that the position is not satisfactory and are looking into the matter, with all seriousness.

Clothing Sales: Sustainability

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We have made some progress. The Textiles 2030 policy, promoted by WRAP, helps signatories to reduce their water and carbon footprints per tonne of clothing by 18.2% and 21% respectively. We want to help local authorities with the work that they are doing and they are being funded to bring forward changes to packaging recycling collections through the extended producer responsibility payments. Separate food waste collections will be funded via new burdens payments, and new collection requirements for consistency in recycling for households in England will come in shortly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, following on from the question from my noble friend Lady Jenkin, might we all be able to avoid buying new clothes if the authorities in this House did something about the moths?

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

Horticultural Peat

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness has made the point that I am about to make rather better than I will, and that is that we need to do all of these things. We need carbon capture and storage, because that will be a big part of dealing with our greenhouse gas emissions and protecting our environment, including our peatlands. I am sorry that this Government annoy her; I live for the moment when she and her Green Party colleague stand up and congratulate the Government on having serious targets for protecting our peatland and addressing climate change in a way that no other country is.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not accept that one of the reasons he is able to pass laws and deal with this in a balanced manner is he has the freedom to do so because we have left the European Union?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I did not see that one coming. I may have been on a different side to my noble friend but I can tell him that, on environmental issues, I am enjoying the freedom that I have, both nationally and internationally, to take action to protect our environment.

Scotland: Bottle Deposit Return Scheme

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effect of the Scottish Government’s bottle deposit return scheme upon (1) the internal market between Scotland and England and (2) UK manufacturers, businesses and consumers.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, as waste policy is a devolved matter, the Scottish Government have opted to roll out a DRS independently of the rest of the UK, due to launch on 16 August this year. We remain in close contact with officials and industry to learn from the delivery of the Scottish scheme and align on key decisions wherever possible.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, that Answer simply is not good enough. This is a unilateral scheme that has been completely ill thought out. Indeed, one of the candidates for the SNP leadership has said it should be cancelled. The deadline for businesses to register is tomorrow. It means a death sentence for small producers of beverages and price increases for Scottish consumers, and it drives a coach and horses through the UK internal market. It requires an opt-out from the internal market Act to proceed. Will my noble friend throw a lifeline to those businesses and consumers?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Let us see whether I can try to encourage my noble friend with this reply. The Government have not yet received an official ministerial request from the Scottish Government for a United Kingdom internal market exemption. There have been discussions at official level. He is entirely right to point out the failures of the Scottish scheme and the impact it will have on Scottish businesses. In November some 600 businesses wrote to the Scottish Minister outlining various reasons why the deposit return scheme is going to fail in Scotland. These include a risk of fraud, major losses in consumer spend, loss of investment in the Scottish economy, and financial and environmental implications for local authorities.

I have to wait and see whether the Scottish Government apply for a UKIM exemption, and then I can answer my noble friend’s question. One of the front-runners to lead the SNP has announced that if it rolls out in Scotland in August as planned, it will create “carnage”. I agree.

Water Companies: Pollution Penalties

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The review is looking at everything. There is no attempt to resile from that figure. That figure relates to one area of sanction. It may be that we should look at unlimited fines to be decided by the courts. We are not suggesting a floor or a ceiling at this stage, but we want to ensure that water companies that knowingly, incompetently and against permitted agreements release sewage into our water and environment are sanctioned. I assure the noble Baroness that there is no attempt to resile from this.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, am I alone in wondering how it can make sense to impose large fines on companies when investment is required and that money is no longer available, rather than holding the management and the directors responsible personally to account?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think that fines have their place. Certainly, how we have changed the rules in terms of, first, how the Environment Agency can recover the costs of doing inspections and, secondly, how the fines that it recovers can be spent on the natural environment and improving it is entirely right. We are determined to see continuing investment. We have the largest investment in our water sector now: £56 billion. That will continue, but we must be able to fine those companies that breach the rules, and that is what we are doing.