Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, it is very appropriate that we are discussing this Bill on St Patrick’s Day. I take this opportunity to wish noble Lords a happy St Patrick’s Day.

I shall start by highlighting the history behind the policy enshrined in this Bill. Since 2010, the UK Government and Northern Ireland Executive have shared a common objective to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy away from overdependence on the public sector and to drive faster economic growth. In 2011 this Government published a consultation document Rebalancing the Northern Ireland Economy. Among other things, the consultation considered the possibility of devolving corporation tax powers to the Executive and Assembly. Responses to that consultation from the business community and Northern Ireland political parties nearly unanimously supported the devolution of corporation tax.

After considerable work on the detail and technical work needed to make this measure possible, this Bill was introduced in the Commons on 8 January. The proposals will allow the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly to set a different rate of corporation tax from the rest of the UK for most types of trading profits arising in Northern Ireland. The tax base, including reliefs and exemptions, will remain under the control of the UK Government. The earliest financial year for which Northern Ireland could set its own rate is 2017. This will allow time for businesses and agents to become familiar with the new rules.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Can my noble friend tell me why this Bill—unlike for example the measures that gave income tax powers to the Scottish Parliament—has been certified as a money Bill and therefore all its stages have to be taken at once?

[Baroness Randerson]

I understand the noble Lord’s point, and indeed there are clearly constitutional issues in relation to this Bill, but it has been certified as a money Bill by the Speaker of the other place. It is important to bear in mind that unlike the other legislation to which my noble friend refers, this is a simple measure that deals entirely with one issue. I am sure my noble friend will agree it is a highly technical Bill and therefore akin to many other money Bills this House deals with.

I will go briefly over the aim of this policy and the key measures within this Bill. Northern Ireland has a unique economic position within the UK. It shares a land border with the very low corporation tax environment of the Republic of Ireland. It is more dependent on the public sector, with around 30% working there, compared with about 20% in the rest of the UK. Economic prosperity—GVA per capita—is persistently some 20% below the UK average, and has been for a number of decades and it has to deal with the challenging legacy of the Troubles.

Devolving corporation tax recognises these unique challenges. The Northern Ireland regime has been carefully designed to enable the Executive to encourage genuine investment that will create jobs and growth, while minimising opportunities for avoidance and profit shifting. It balances this with the need to keep the costs of a reduced rate proportionate, both for the Executive and in relation to any additional administrative burdens for businesses.

The design of the regime builds on the principles agreed in 2012 by the Joint Ministerial Working Group which included Ministers from HM Treasury, the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Executive. Companies trading in Northern Ireland will attract a Northern Ireland rate on their qualifying trading profits only. Companies will continue to pay the UK rate on their profits from non-trading activities which do not generate jobs or economic growth in the same way.

The rules are designed to deter businesses from seeking to exploit, through profit shifting and avoidance, a rate differential between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The regime will not provide opportunities for brass-plating. Because they offer significant scope for profit shifting without the benefits of bringing substantial new jobs, the regime does not extend to profits from financial trading activity, such as lending and reinsurance. However, the policy recognises the genuine growth and employment potential for Northern Ireland offered by back-office functions, so companies with excluded profits from certain financial trades may make a one-off election to bring a notional profit attributable to the back-office functions of those excluded trades within the Northern Ireland rate.

To reduce the administrative burdens for SMEs, a special regime exists for them. A simple in-out test will mean that the majority of the companies will be spared the burden and cost of apportioning profits. More than 97% of SMEs operating in Northern Ireland meet the 75% employment test threshold and will benefit from the Northern Ireland regime.

Although this measure should go a long way in helping the Executive to encourage genuine investment that will create jobs and growth, the Government have been clear that devolving corporation tax is not an end in itself. For the full potential benefit of corporation tax devolution to be recognised, there are a number of other areas of reform that need to be addressed, such as education, skills and infrastructure.

The Stormont House agreement set out that the progress of this Bill through Parliament would proceed in parallel with implementation of key measures to deliver sustainable finances. These include agreeing and delivering a 2015-16 budget that works; progressing the Welfare Reform Bill in the Assembly; and taking the steps required to put the Executive’s finances on a stable footing for the long term. The Northern Ireland Executive agreed their budget for 2015-16, passing their Budget Bill on 24 February, and the Welfare Reform Bill also passed through further consideration stage of the Assembly on the 24 February. Sinn Fein has since withdrawn its support of the Welfare Reform Bill through its final stage in the Assembly. There can be no doubt that this decision was a setback, and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland chaired a meeting of the party leaders last week in an attempt to help them to resolve the situation. The party leaders have since held further talks, and the Secretary of State proposes to convene another meeting with them later this week.

Changes to the welfare system in Northern Ireland were a key part of the Stormont House agreement and, as the Secretary of State has made clear, it remains pivotal that all aspects of the agreement are implemented. In simple terms, the Executive’s budget for 2015-16 does not balance without progress on these important issues. The Stormont House agreement was a major step forward and, although there has been good progress since the beginning of year, there were bound to be bumps in the road. The Government remain determined to implement the agreement and propose to continue with the progress of the corporation tax legislation through this House. The legislation contains a commencement clause, and commencement will not take place until the conditions set out in the Stormont House agreement have been met and changes to the welfare system in Northern Ireland have been implemented. This means the devolved power will be “switched on” for the planned start date of April 2017 only if the Executive are delivering their side of the agreement, including achieving sustainable public finances.

The unique challenges faced by Northern Ireland have been recognised by all parties. This Bill will allow the Northern Ireland Executive greater power to rebalance the economy towards a stronger private sector, boosting employment, growth and the standard of living in Northern Ireland, with benefits for the wider UK.

I therefore hope that noble Lords will give this Bill a Second Reading.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, the Labour Opposition welcome and support the Bill and will do everything we can to facilitate its passage. However, that does not mean that we are not looking for further answers to questions that were asked in the House of Commons.

The Minister mentioned action to prevent “brass-plating”, as it has become known. We would like a bit more detail on how that would be stopped. She mentioned rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy. Concerns were expressed in the other place by the honourable Margaret Ritchie about regional imbalance within Northern Ireland, so that issue needs to be addressed.

Before I go any further, I should indicate again that we fully support the Government in looking to the parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly to implement the Stormont agreement. That is part of the deal, and we support the Government in insisting that the Stormont House agreement be implemented.

Some concerns remain that we would like to probe a little further. When government Ministers were asked about the effect of the devolution of corporation tax on the block grant, there was no real response to that. I merely repeat the question that was asked in another place: why were no models done? For example, if corporation tax was set at level X, what would be the effect on the block grant? I do not think that is too demanding a question to ask. Models should have been drawn up so that folk could have a better grasp of what will transpire in this area.

I share the sober assessment that this measure will not solve Northern Ireland’s economic problems or provide the necessary rebalancing of its economy. However, it should be implemented to try to rebalance the economy, as the Minister mentioned.

I want to spend a few minutes on the trade-off between a reduction in corporation tax and spending cuts. The impact of this legislation will need careful managing to ensure that it does not benefit only already wealthy people at the top and does not further perpetuate existing income inequality in Northern Ireland. This should not become a rich man’s Bill.

The importance of funding education in Northern Ireland cannot be overstated. Without adequate investment in education and apprenticeships, jobs and productivity will never increase. If Northern Ireland reduces its corporation tax rate to that of the Republic of Ireland, it will lose at least £300 million from its block grant. That figure was given by the government Minister in the other place. I believe in devolution and giving the Stormont Assembly responsibility for running its affairs, but that agreement should contain safeguards to make sure that there is no dramatic effect on the services that have been mentioned. The devolution of corporation tax—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

How can the noble Lord say that he supports the Bill and at the same time say that there should be no dramatic effect, when the effect of the Bill will be to reduce the amount of tax paid by profitable businesses if corporation tax was equalised, as he said, by between £300 million and £350 million, which would be money not available for spending on public services? So the necessity is that there will be less money for public services and more money in the pockets of profitable businesses.

[Lord McAvoy]

There is a bit of role reversal going on here. It is me who is supposed to attack the capitalists, not the noble Lord or the Minister. I am starting to feel a bit dizzy.

That is the balance that it is hoped to be reached. The noble Lord shakes his head. I would say to him, “O ye of little faith”. There will be a vested interest for Stormont Ministers to make sure that they balance extra corporation tax against a reduction in the block grant. I fully agree that one has to be very careful here so that this does not result in less money for services but we have been assured that there will be no dramatic impact, and I am always willing to listen to government Ministers. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, is looking a bit puzzled. I hope that he will comment on that point.

Has there been any study or consideration—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, is right—of how the volatility of corporation tax might impact on Northern Ireland’s economy? That is a valid concern. While devolution is devolution, we are devolving the power and are therefore looking for some kind of guarantee in this matter. We hope that its devolution goes ahead in 2017, but a potential stumbling block is that Northern Ireland’s finances must be on a stable footing. It concerns us that we do not know the precise fiscal conditionality required before the Government devolve this power. Can they make any estimate of the resulting decrease in the block grant? There are various calculations, but I would like the Treasury people to have looked at that.

I repeat, in case of doubt, that we support the Bill. In the other place, highly contentious remarks were made to the effect that Labour had done a U-turn because it had previously attacked the devolution of corporation tax. That is quite untrue. We have expressed legitimate concerns, but if anyone wishes to pursue that point, perhaps they could turn to the minutes of the Public Bill Committee, where Nic Dakin asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether she had seen comment by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that,

“Corporation tax is not a good candidate for devolution”?

The Secretary of State replied that there were risks. The Labour Opposition are not using scare tactics but asking legitimate questions. This process is not the be-all and end-all but could and should be a helpful tool for Northern Ireland.

Briefly on the background to all this, Laurence Robertson, chair of the Northern Ireland Select Committee in the other place, indicated that when the committee was in the United States of America recently it watched violent scenes on the streets of Belfast and Northern Ireland, involving fires and smoke-bombs. That is the biggest turn-off when trying to attract industry into Northern Ireland. There is a two-way street here: devolution is coming from this place, after consideration, but there also has to be a payback, if you like, by people trying to work together—hard as that may be because the past is always there. The damage being done by those scenes is quite substantial.

We hope that this is a contribution to further periods of peace and stability in Northern Ireland. Going back in history, I think that great credit is due to Sir John Major for initiating this process and to Tony Blair and his team for pursuing it. It is to be hoped that the devolution of corporation tax will be a further measure along the road to peace and stability in Northern Ireland.

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[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hay of Ballyore. I have been looking forward to his maiden speech for some time. He succeeded me as Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and when it was announced in August last year that he would be coming to your Lordships’ House, I thought, “That is wonderful”. It has taken quite a while, but that is because he has had something of a scare. Sometimes when people are appointed to your Lordships’ House they say, “My goodness, I was so surprised that I nearly had a heart attack”. The noble Lord took that further than most people, which set him back a bit, so it is wonderful to see him in this House and to hear him speak.

Colleagues will know of the noble Lord’s long and distinguished public service in Northern Ireland. He was elected to Londonderry City Council in 1981, became deputy mayor of the city in 1992 and mayor in 1993. He was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly just after the formation of the Belfast agreement in 1998 and went on to be appointed Speaker in 2007. He served for some seven years until the latter part of last year. He has done a lot of other things as well. He was a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board, the Northern Ireland Housing Council and the Londonderry port authority. He has held many distinguished positions, but what noble Lords may not necessarily know about—because it is not the kind of thing that is recorded in Wikipedia, Dod’s or whatever—is the kind of work that the noble Lord has done quietly and privately but most significantly, especially in the city of Londonderry. There have been many difficulties, but as a member of the Orange Order and of the Apprentice Boys of Derry, quietly and behind the scenes he has forged remarkable friendships. He has demonstrated real leadership and—I make no criticism of his party here—he was prepared to go out in front of his party on occasion to lead it on to developing relationships with people in the nationalist and republican community which later would become an everyday matter. He was out in front and doing these things in a quiet and thoughtful way.

Consider his experience in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I know, from talking to members of all political parties, staff in the Speaker’s office and staff in the clerking department, that he is held in great affection and regarded with great appreciation for the quiet, thoughtful work that he does. This House will find that he will continue that kind of public service here. He is a man of great courtesy and thoughtfulness, but also a man of real determination to make things better for his community.

One of the other distinctive things about him, which makes St Patrick’s Day a particularly appropriate day for him to come here, is that he is an Irish citizen. He was born in Milford, in County Donegal. One does not necessarily associate noble Lords from the Democratic Unionist Party with Irish citizens, although one never knows what the future may hold. For him, it is a very distinctive feature, and he comes here on St Patrick’s Day as an Irish citizen.

Of course, this is an important day for the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill as well. The noble Lord, Lord Hay, knows, because of his experience on both sides of the border, that the relationship between north and south was one of the important strands that we were trying to address in the Belfast agreement. One of the economic dilemmas we have faced is that corporation tax on the other side of the land frontier is much lower than in Northern Ireland. It has been one of the great successes that led to the Celtic Tiger, with its positive and difficult sides, but it is an important challenge for us economically in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend raised some questions as to whether this was just a money Bill or whether there were other elements to it and whether the Speaker of the other place had gone a little far in his certification of the Bill. As a former Speaker speaking just after a former Speaker, I do not think the noble Lord would expect me to question what the Speaker in another place would say, but there is more to the Bill than simply the question of money. No one, I think, would believe that the Bill on its own will address all the economic problems of Northern Ireland—far from it—but there is an important principle here. There are those in Northern Ireland who seek better relations with the Republic of Ireland economically, politically, socially and otherwise. It is very important that nationalists and republicans have it put to them that it is possible to move to greater tax harmony north and south of the border, but there are economic realities if you do that.

In Scotland, which my noble friend comes from, the Scots Nats have for years been claiming they wanted more powers, but they never used the income tax powers that they were given in the legislation of devolution. Had they not been given them, they would of course have complained. Here is the opportunity for nationalist and republican politicians, along with Unionist, Democratic Unionist and Alliance politicians, to face up to the political and economic challenges of instituting a corporation tax rate that is closer to that of the Republic of Ireland and different from that of the rest of the United Kingdom.

This is where we move from institutions of power sharing to the reality of responsibility sharing. We saw the dilemma of that just before Christmas last year, when the issue of welfare came forward, with all its social and financial implications. It was a real hurdle for people in the nationalist and republican communities to overcome.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. I apologise for interrupting him, but as he has mentioned the Scottish position, I am, unusually for me, defending the Scottish Nationalists. The reason that the tartan tax powers were never used, by way of explanation for them, was that they could only set the rate. They could not change the allowances. This is precisely the position in the Bill, which allows Northern Ireland only to set the rate, while the allowances and all the other conditions are set centrally. Does it not have the same problem that prevented the Scots from doing so?

[Lord Alderdice]

No, it is not. I think it is the same problem, but I do not think that is the reason the Scottish Nationalists did not go down that road. I think the reason was they like to eat their cake and have it. They liked the possibility of being able to complain that they do not have the power to do things, but then, when they have the power, but there is an actual cost to doing it, they do not do it. I think we will find exactly the same thing in Northern Ireland. We had this dilemma over the Stormont House agreement. Nationalists and republicans signed up for the agreement and knew perfectly well that the sums did not add up. Then, when there came to be a bit of pressure and people asked, “Well, how does this actually work out?”, they backed off from it, and now they will find themselves having to move forward. The truth is that the peace process is less like riding a bicycle and more like playing an accordion, where people move backwards and forwards instead of straightforwardly. That is the reality of politics.

The Bill does not devolve corporation tax; it makes it possible for the devolution of corporation tax to take place—if there is responsible, political and economic governance in Northern Ireland, if there is a responsible budget that adds up, if parties then look at it and want the power, and if they then decide to implement it. In fairness, the world has changed economically over the last number of years and corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland may not stay at its current level, but in a sense those are secondary issues. This is about people having power to act responsibly and a responsibility to share that power in a serious fashion, taking into account all the dilemmas that are present.

On this St Patrick’s Day, when we share our patron saint as we share the piece of territory and the politics of the island, with different perspectives and different views but nevertheless with a sense of vision and hope for the future, with all the difficulties and dilemmas that we have, this is an opportunity to challenge my colleagues at home to use the power and responsibility that are being offered to take us forward. I hope that none of us here or there will be found wanting in that regard.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in a debate on a Bill which is exclusively concerned with Northern Ireland. I do so because I am opposed to the Bill because I do not believe that it is a unionist measure. Indeed, in the Second Reading debate in the other place on 27 January, the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, in describing the proposed regime, which is different for small businesses and large businesses, said:

“Larger businesses will need to divide their profits between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, as they do now between the UK and other countries”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/1/15; col. 744.]

The very fact that she should use phraseology like that goes to the heart of this Bill and to why it is thoroughly undesirable.

I realise that it is perhaps a little rude to be critical of a legislative provision for Northern Ireland on St Patrick’s Day, but on St Andrew’s Day we had the policy of further, not-thought-through devolution to Scotland, on Burns Night, we got the draft clauses which were subsequently amended and which do not work and on St David’s Day, we got votes for 16 year-olds as part of this continuing package of piecemeal dismantling of our constitution and our United Kingdom. All I can say is: thank goodness St George’s Day will be during the election campaign and there will be no opportunity to come along with further measures that relate to England.

Obviously there is great support from people who have a distinguished record of representing Northern Irish interests but I am genuinely puzzled as to what the point of this Bill is. Apart from it being called the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill and the Speaker of the House of Commons having certified it as a money Bill, I can think of no reason why it should be a money Bill other than it enables the Government to rush it through Parliament as part of the deal they made for a balanced budget in Northern Ireland and for agreement to welfare reforms which are now being reneged on. Indeed, my noble friend said from the Dispatch Box in introducing this Bill that the Government have no intention of implementing it unless the deal they agreed, which is the reason this Bill is being rushed through the House, is actually met. This is a very shoddy way in which to go about major constitutional reform.

A number of things are being said, such as the Republic of Ireland benefiting because of its lower corporation tax regime. It is true that the corporation tax regime for some revenues is 12.5% but it is 25% for revenue that is not allowed. The reason this Bill takes 87 pages to allow Stormont to set the rate of corporation tax and prevent it from setting or changing any of the allowances is because it adds huge complexity to the tax system. Back in 2005 the then shadow Chancellor asked me to do a tax commission report. We laboured for a year and were charged with having a simpler, flatter, fairer, lower tax system. This is the antithesis of that. There are pages and pages explaining how dredging, films or a whole range of other activities will be affected and how large companies have to decide which of their profits have been earned as a direct result of Northern Ireland. I declare an interest as a director of a bank and an insurance company. Financial services are not allowed to take advantage of this although I think that if you can certify that 70% of the back-office activity is in Northern Ireland it is allowed, but only as a one-off option. What about call centres and things of that kind? The Bill creates huge complexity, which may very well tempt people to go to Scotland where they do not have to have two sets of accounts rather than Northern Ireland. All of this is being done in order to give Stormont the opportunity to set a different corporation tax rate. We assume, if it is about tax competition, that that rate would be set closer to the level of the Republic of Ireland for trading activities at 12.5%. According to the Government the cost of that will be £325 million. My noble friend Lord Shipley talked about distortions in air passenger duty. I think I am right in saying that Stormont already has the power to set air passenger duty but does not because it would cost £50 million to do so. Yet here we have something that could cost—

[Lord Empey]

The air passenger duty issue was designed to enable the link between Belfast International Airport and New York to survive. It has been applied only to that route because it is the only direct route from Northern Ireland to the United States. No attempt has been made to alter domestic air passenger duty.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I understand that. I was making the point, perhaps wrongly, that one reason why it has not been done is that it would result in a reduction in the block grant—the point made so eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Blood. I think that my noble friend Lord Alderdice earlier referred to the position in Scotland, where the Scottish Parliament allowed its income tax raising powers to desist. They were never used. The reason they were never used was that using them would have resulted in a corresponding reduction in the block grant. It is not terribly electorally smart to tell people that you are going to put their income tax rate up by 3p and, in return, you are going to have the block grant—which is already very generous because of the Barnett formula—reduced by exactly the same amount, so you ask people to pay more tax in order to stay where they are. Exactly the same applies here, unless you believe that a reduction in corporation tax will result in more revenue. I do believe that that is the case, but I would prefer to see this Government, who have made fantastic progress in reducing the rate of corporation tax for the United Kingdom as a whole down to 20p for the next financial year, continue in that way. If we think that there is such a huge problem in tax competition from the Republic of Ireland, the answer to that is to reduce our corporation tax rates nearer those of the Republic of Ireland. But we do not do that because the cost would mean that we would have to make cuts in other public services, such as health and education. Exactly the same applies to Stormont.

[Lord Alderdice]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for giving way. The problem that I have found is that these changes are not made because they do not work for the Treasury here in London, and it regards the value for people in Northern Ireland to be far too small an issue, one that does not get any attention paid to it. That is the reason. The reason for the air passenger duty with respect to the United States is because it is so easy for people to go across the border and to fly out of Dublin. The whole point is that there is a land border. If Scotland was to leave the United Kingdom, I think that you would find that a lot of those kinds of changes became relevant. But it is very important to understand that the situation in Northern Ireland is quite different from that in Scotland, because it is so small, does not have a large financial industry and has a land border. Those are the many reasons why read-across to Scotland does not work, with due deference to my noble friend.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I think that the argument about the land border is overemphasised. I happen to know that people fly from Scotland to Dublin to go on international flights because the flights from Dublin are priced by the airlines at a very much lower rate. That has nothing whatever to do with air passenger duty or taxation and everything to do with the view of the commercial airlines of what the market will bear for their fares. It is a very simple thing to hop on an aeroplane—there are about six or seven a day out of Edinburgh and as many out of Glasgow—to go to Dublin and then to fly to wherever you want to go, to Hong Kong or the United States or wherever. So I do not think that that argument holds water; but perhaps that is a mixed metaphor, because my noble friend is arguing that it is about a land border.

I am totally opposed to giving air passenger duty powers to the Scottish Parliament because it will have a catastrophic effect on Newcastle and the rest of the north of England. Already the amount that we pay in taxes is very considerable. I am arguing that as a United Kingdom we should have a unitary tax system and that this tinkering is absolutely inimical to maintaining a United Kingdom. If as a United Kingdom we believe that reducing corporation tax will result in more revenue and business development, that should be the policy for the United Kingdom.

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, chided me for attacking capitalism when it was his job. I was merely pointing out to him the inconsistency of his position. If he supports this Bill and argues that he is in favour of these reductions in corporation tax to help business expand and grow, he cannot at the same time satisfy the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, in her concern about the impact—even if you believe, as I believe, that cutting the top rate of tax from 50% to 45% has resulted in revenues going up by £8.5 billion. I believe that tax cuts can have a dynamic effect. Similarly, when the Liberal Democrats insisted on putting up capital gains tax from 18% to 29%, what happened? The revenue went down by several billion pounds. My noble friend nods; I apologise for not being very positive. However, even if you believe that that is not the case, there is a time lag, and in between times you do not have the money and you have to take that money away from public services. The noble Baroness made that point. I do not think that will be particularly popular and it seems a very strange approach to a situation where people cannot agree on balancing the budget and on meeting their obligations as it is. So I think this Bill is a deal and a piece of constitutional tinkering which is misguided in its approach.

As a Scot, I am worried because I have not heard a single argument here today, other than there is a land border, which will enable me to fend off the devo-max brigade in Scotland and the nationalists who are now running rampant in the polls. The latest poll has them on 55%. That has all been caused by raising expectations and confusing two things—that is, confusing more powers with more money. Everyone in this Chamber knows that having more powers will actually mean less money, but it is being sold to the voters—I suspect that it may well have been sold in this way in Northern Ireland—that if their parliament has more powers, they will have better education and health services and better everything else. However, that is a fantasy. When people wake up to the fact that this is a misguided fantasy, they will blame London and our United Kingdom will be fractured. Therefore, I am very disappointed by this Bill.

However, I agree with my noble friends Lord Alderdice and Lord Trimble on the importance of stimulating the private sector. Scotland also has too large a public sector and we need to encourage business, but corporation tax is paid only by profitable businesses and businesses which are generating capital for investment. However, lots of businesses are struggling. If you want to encourage businesses and cut taxes—that is a priority—why not deal with business rates and levels of national insurance, as I hope my right honourable friend the Chancellor will tomorrow? Corporation tax is a very odd choice indeed.

For all that is said about the success of the tiger economy in the Republic of Ireland, corporation tax receipts went up so dramatically in the Republic when the rates were low because lots of businesses operating in the United Kingdom repatriated their profits to the Republic. According to leaks that have emerged before the Budget, the Chancellor says that he will take action against the Amazons and others who organise their affairs so that they pay tax in low corporation tax countries. The Government seem to be trying to have it both ways.

By the way, no one has mentioned the impact of all this on the Barnett formula. The Labour leader in Scotland is saying that if people vote nationalist, they will lose Barnett. If you continue to devolve more and more tax-raising powers to the constituent parts of the United Kingdom, by definition you will erode and lose Barnett. As was pointed out in the earlier part of the debate, we also have to think about why there is such a disparity in grant to the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. Therefore, as we go down this road, we must move towards a more needs-based system of funding which again will put pressure on Northern Ireland and the public services. So I am with the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in arguing that we need a constitutional convention and we need to look at these things as a whole and not on a bit-by-bit basis. Does the noble Lord wish to intervene?

[Lord McAvoy]

Very briefly. The noble Lord has made an excellent case. If he cares to cross the Floor, we will always find room for him.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I suggest to the noble Lord that the Labour Party in Scotland is in enough trouble without me adding to its difficulties.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, in which two obvious problems with the Bill have been identified that might not have been entirely anticipated. They broadened the debate to such an extent that I sympathise with the Minister responding to it. The breadth that has developed is obvious enough. First, questions have been directed to points of such substantial detail that we want answers this evening because this is a money Bill and we have no chance to press the issues any further. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord—I know how scrupulous he is in observing time limits when he is winding up—will indulge himself sufficiently to respond to those very detailed points, one of which I will refer to in a moment, so that we can make as much progress as we can before we pass the Bill, defined as it is as a money Bill, by taking all its stages after Second Reading.

The second aspect that has broadened things was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. He was not alone in this respect, although he probably presented the most challenging dimension on it. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, accurately reflected this as well. They said that the Bill raises issues relating to devolution powers and the position of the United Kingdom.

I am absolutely delighted to welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on the prospects of a convention immediately after the election. He has only to vote Labour and he will help with that. Unfortunately, he is not allowed to but perhaps he can persuade the other members of his family to vote Labour to ensure that we have a convention after the election.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also identified in his very useful contribution that there are real issues at stake here. I do not doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, will be somewhat reluctant to indulge in that part of the debate to a very large extent. However, it is clear that this is a further step towards devolution, which is welcomed on all sides. We heard in all speeches—and know from the deliberations in Northern Ireland, particularly in the business community—that people are in favour of this measure. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, indicated, that might be on the basis of a fairly limited perspective on what the implications are for devolution and the position of the United Kingdom as a whole—the interaction of the parts. We heard some very challenging contributions today. It is a great pity that we are able to raise them only in the context of a Second Reading debate that concludes very shortly.

Of course, we support the Bill and will give every assistance to its progressing satisfactorily. However, we have anxieties about it. Noble Lords raised the question of the trade-off between this and the block grant. Extending wider than that, there is the whole question of devolution arrangements as well. The Barnett formula came into the debate, too. We have anxieties on those issues and the Minister must recognise that when the Bill goes through, the hoped-for increase in revenue in due course will be balanced against the block grant. I hope he will appreciate that this has considerable ramifications for the Northern Ireland public.

My noble friend Lady Blood emphasised the fact that loss of resources for government might crucially affect the amount that the Government are able to invest in, for example, training and education. These are clearly issues of great importance to making a strategy for increasing the private sector’s capacity to compete successfully. Reference was made to the days of the Republic of Ireland tiger, but it was not just the business rate taxation that was crucial to Ireland. A great deal was made of that, of course. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, reflected, certain companies hived themselves off to the Republic to take advantage of that, but other factors at play also made the Republic attractive at that time. Northern Ireland has a clearly important task to fulfil in matching up in certain respects.

That is why we are concerned about the effect of this. The Government have made it clear that there is a delaying timetable for the implementation of this measure. It is dependent on the Northern Ireland community, particularly the Assembly at Stormont, reaching an agreement that gives the Government confidence that there is fiscal security in the economy, and gives strength to that economy. Two years is a pretty short timetable to make that demand—it is a pretty substantial demand as well. The Minister must flesh out what his tests are for this demand being met before corporation tax reduction powers are vested in Northern Ireland.

None of us regards corporation tax as a panacea. It can play its part, and we are aware of the strength of opinion in the business community that it will help, but it is not a panacea for the economy; much more substantial improvements need to be made as far as the Northern Ireland economy is concerned. Therefore, the only thing I can say to the Government is that I understand their need for delay—they want to get the Bill through before this Parliament concludes and so they built in the delay before implementation—but delay is no friend in circumstances where things are not improving as rapidly as one would hope.

I hope the Minister will address these issues and at least have a shot at the broader constitutional problems.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Davies, can help me by answering the question that I put to his noble friend Lord McAvoy. I am just a bit puzzled. Of course the business community welcomes the Bill, because profitable businesses will pay less tax at the expense of the resources that are available for public services. Why is the Labour Party supporting such a measure?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we see that there is support in Northern Ireland for the Bill, which will give some chance of rebalancing the economy to a certain extent. We are in favour of that, but recognise that the development of the Northern Ireland economy, as with all the other parts of the United Kingdom, will depend on much more fundamental issues than the rate of corporation tax. That is why we regard this as a marginal Bill in these terms. However, it would be fruitless of us to object to it, although I accept his point about why we did not address ourselves to other issues, rather than the reduction of corporation tax. He will know, because he is so well informed on Labour Party policy, that we propose to increase the corporation tax rate for the rest of the United Kingdom, with the specific objective of reducing business rates for small and medium-sized businesses. We think that is a quicker and more effective way of giving stimulus to the business community. There we are: on two areas of policy, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I are in full agreement. I did not expect to say that this evening.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

If it is the policy of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that it is better to reduce business rates and that that should be applied to the rest of the United Kingdom, why is it not his policy to do that in Northern Ireland? If he believes that that is the right approach, why is he proposing something that he rejects as being the right approach in the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, has the noble Lord not noticed that I am speaking from the opposition Benches? We are not in a position where we can implement our policies at present. It is only a matter of a short delay, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will readily appreciate. But at this stage, the Government put Bills before us and this is the Bill we have. I have only two alternatives: to reject the Bill whatever its benefits, or to accept it but state that we can do better. That is exactly what I have argued.

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[Lord Newby]

That is accepted. My noble friend makes a very strong point.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

No, it is not accepted. My noble friend said that by giving more powers to Northern Ireland, and with it more responsibility, the case for breaking away from the United Kingdom will be blunted. That is precisely the argument which has been used by the Government in Scotland, where we gave more powers after we had won a referendum on independence, and the result is that the nationalists have surged. My noble friend says that no one in Scotland is crying out for corporation tax powers, but the Scottish nationalists are crying out for devo-max. In the past six months, they have gone up to 55% in the opinion polls, and the Labour Party, which has advocated more powers on the same argument as my noble friend has put, is facing annihilation. Can we not learn the lesson that by giving more powers to constituent parts of the United Kingdom, we break the unitary state which is the United Kingdom and give succour to those who wish to smash it up? When my noble friend says that Scotland is not like Ireland because there is no other country it can be, yes there is. It can be Scotland as an independent country outside the United Kingdom. That is the threat.

[Lord Newby]

I am not sure that is a threat in respect of Northern Ireland. I disagree with the noble Lord about both the principle of devolution and its effect. The SNP is at 55% in the polls today but, if I were a betting man, I would say that it will not be at 55% in the polls in 10 years’ time when we have seen how it manages taking responsibility for Scotland’s own income. It seems to me that one of the great weaknesses about the current settlement in Scotland is that the Scots Nats or the Government in Scotland wait to get a cheque from England but, however big it is, it is not big enough, and they do not have the responsibility for raising the money themselves. Now, they will have significantly greater responsibly for raising the money, and that will mean that they have to take more responsibility. I think that is wholly beneficial. I just disagree with the noble Lord, I am afraid.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blood, asked about building societies and credit unions. The effect and the design of the scheme is that in order to attract genuine economic activity, some mobile trades and activities are excluded, including lending and investing. The rules in respect of lending and investing do not distinguish between types of entity, so banks and building societies are treated on the same basis for that purpose. In respect of credit unions, the Northern Ireland corporation tax regime applies only to trading activity in order to encourage genuine employment. The income from the loans that credit unions make to their members is not currently taxed as trading income, so credit unions do not pay corporation tax on that income. Given those special rules already in place, this income from loans will remain outside the Northern Ireland corporation tax rules. Perversely, to bring the profits within the trading income rules, and so within the Northern Ireland regime, would likely result in them paying more tax. I do not think that credit unions are being disadvantaged by this.

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[Lord Newby]

Yes, it is the difference between the 20% and the 12.5%.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Will the Minister just elaborate on that? Let us just say for the sake of argument that it is decided to drop the corporation tax rate to 12.5% on day one. The Government have made an estimate that that would cost £325 million. Would the block grant then have £325 million deducted on day one? Is it based on the estimate? Given that we know how volatile corporation tax is from year to year, how would that work? I do not want to be rude, but it does rather feel as though the Government are introducing a Bill without knowing how it will work in practice, or how much it will cost. It does matter, for reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, pointed out in her speech.

[Lord Newby]

First, Northern Ireland would not lose the £325 million on day one. As I said, there is a transitional period; it takes three years before the full effects work through, because of the time that it takes to get corporation tax returns sorted out. On the second point, on how it works out, the model that is being followed closely follows the model that has been agreed with the Scottish Executive in respect of income tax for Scotland. So a lot of work has been done on that, and the principles and the practice will follow from Scotland to Northern Ireland. I am happy to write to the noble Lord about it—it is extremely technical. But I can assure him that a lot of work has been done on the issue already.

I am well over time. I just say to the noble Lord, Lord Bew, that the double Irish arrangement is coming to an end, so he is right to the extent that the rate would go up there.

As I said at the start, this is a measure that is broadly supported in Northern Ireland by the political and business community. It has raised varying expectations. The view of the Government is that it has the potential to encourage genuine investment and help Northern Ireland to become competitive, boosting the entire UK economy and the standard of living of people across Northern Ireland. But it will be for those in Northern Ireland—business and politicians alike—to ensure that, if and when the Bill comes into effect, it has the desired effect.