British Transport Police

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will recognise the British Transport Police for the purposes of the Firearms Act 1968.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government recognise the need to amend the Firearms Act 1968 to address the anomalous position of the BTP in relation to firearms licensing. We are continuing to seek a suitable legislative vehicle to make the necessary amendment to the Firearms Act 1968. We hope that it will be possible to do so during the third Session Bill programme.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, there is widespread admiration in your Lordships’ House and elsewhere for the work that the British Transport Police do, particularly in tackling metal theft, as we heard in the debate on Friday. In May last year, the Secretary of State for Transport announced that the British Transport Police could arm its officers. However, for the reason the Minister mentioned—because the definition of “police” in the Police Act 1996 does not include the BTP—its officers are not regarded as Crown servants under the Firearms Act 1968. Is he aware that, as a result, BTP officers do not enjoy the legal protection afforded to other police officers and that they have to apply for firearms certificates individually as if they were members of the public? The Minister referred to legislative opportunities—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I will finish very quickly. The Minister referred to legislative opportunities. Will he look at a late amendment to the Crime and Courts Bill or the introduction of a statutory instrument under the Railways and Transport Safety Act?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right in his analysis of the problem. Unfortunately, we cannot make any suitable amendment to current legislation going through your Lordships’ House. I am advised that other routes, such as a regulatory reform order, are not suitable, so we will have to wait for a suitable slot in the primary legislation. However, the noble Lord’s point about legal uncertainties is extremely important.

Transport: Isles of Scilly Ferry Link

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I cannot agree to review the statement that I made to the House because it is considered government policy. I accept that there are difficulties in the Isles of Scilly, particularly the dependence on the tourist trade.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

Is the Minister aware of the great concern in both the Isles of Scilly and Cornwall over the long-term viability of the helicopter service that presently serves the islands in addition to the ferry? I understand that it is about to move from Penzance to Newquay but there is concern over whether it will survive in the long term. Does the Minister’s briefing cover that matter?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my briefing covers that. There are two air services. There is a fixed-wing aircraft, which goes from St Mary’s to a few destinations on the mainland, and there is the helicopter service, which is by definition much more flexible in where it can land. There is an issue over the condition of the runway at St Mary’s; it will not last for ever.

European Rail Market: EUC Report

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, on the excellent way in which she introduced this debate. I do not think that she said a word with which I disagreed. I also congratulate her and the other members of the sub-committee on producing a very impressive report.

As many of your Lordships know, I am a passionate supporter of the railways and I am keen always to see their role in the provision of national and international transport expand. It is clear that the sub-committee shares that view. Fifty years ago, the railways of Europe looked very different from how they look today, but common specifications set out by the International Union of Railways meant that rolling stock could cross the continent regardless of national boundaries, albeit with a change of locomotive at frontiers.

Some of us are old enough to remember the blue sleeping cars drawn up at Calais Maritime behind a steam locomotive ready to take British passengers from Calais to the south of France or to Venice. You could take a direct train from Paris to Istanbul or from Ostend to Moscow. Trains of fruit from Spain, motor scooters from Italy or manufactured goods from Germany and France crossed on train ferries, as did the night ferry sleeping car train each night from Paris and Brussels to Victoria. Then, in the 1970s, with the development of high-speed routes, new multiple-unit trains and the move to containers, this universal compatibility broke down. The market failed to deliver a common solution, national railways focused on internally set objectives and the European Commission was slow to react to those changes.

From being the odd one out in Europe in the 1960s, Britain is now at the heart of railway technical and operational development. Eurostar shows how trains can cross frontiers seamlessly, not just between Britain and France but on into Belgium as well, and soon further into Germany and the Netherlands. Far from changing the locomotive at the frontier, the train crews themselves work right through to Paris and Brussels. In this case, the different technical standards in each country have been overcome with the remarkable trains that can, at the turn of a selector in the driver’s cab, handle four different types of traction current and signalling systems.

Today’s debate is important because, as the noble Baroness said, there is scope to attract more people to use international rail services and because much more needs to be done to encourage rail freight through the tunnel. The sub-committee’s report makes an important contribution to moving this argument forward.

Cross-channel services are always going to be more complex to operate than domestic services because of the involvement of Eurotunnel, which has its own shuttle services to consider, and the fact that the only link to the rest of Europe requires the active co-operation of SNCF between Coquelles and the Belgian border.

On the freight side, international traffic via the Channel Tunnel seems not to be a priority for SNCF. In the past, this has been reflected in poor reliability and problems in arranging additional trains at short notice. Whatever technical or legal solutions are proposed, clearly a lot of work needs to be done to encourage a different approach by SNCF.

On freight, it is always going to be difficult to build rail market share when the cost of taking a container through the tunnel can be lower using a lorry on Eurotunnel’s shuttle compared with a freight train, and this reflects the usage charge. There needs to be a move towards charging avoidable costs for freight—as is the case on Network Rail at home—if market share is to have a chance to grow.

There is little in the way of fair competition between road and rail freight. European hauliers do not pay towards UK infrastructure costs, for example, nor do they pay fuel duty if they fill up before crossing to Folkestone. The choices are difficult: there needs to be either some form of subsidy or cross-subsidy for rail freight operators to use Eurotunnel’s infrastructure or a charge for other European hauliers to use the infrastructure that Britain currently provides at no cost to them.

The sub-committee is right to draw attention to the inherent contradictions surrounding Eurotunnel’s operation. This is Britain’s only fixed link to mainland Europe. It is a privately owned concession where the concessionaire also runs a shuttle service for freight and passengers, and, at the same time, it is the infrastructure authority for through trains, which themselves have to fit both Eurotunnel’s train paths and the available paths on Network Rail and its French equivalent.

Up to now, this process has been left to the market. The sub-committee’s report shows that this is not working and, as demand increases, action will be needed to optimise the use of the one pair of tracks that link the British and French rail networks. Our own British experience on the east coast main line is that the only way to optimise capacity on a constrained railway with multiple operators is by strong focused planning of the way in which that capacity is used. In the case of the east coast main line, this has been done by the Department for Transport as the specifier of franchised services on the route, but the needs of freight and two open-access passenger operators have been protected as well.

The question therefore is: can Eurotunnel perform that role or does this need action by the IGC or a specially convened group of train planners from Network Rail, Eurotunnel and the French infrastructure owners? I am advised by Eurostar that Eurotunnel declines to take part in any of the intra-European path allocation discussions and it has not been keen on changing passenger train paths, even when that would reduce journey times or allow more trains to use the tunnel at peak times.

Eurostar also makes the point that the current structure of access charges needs to be reviewed. The per-passenger toll is preventing new markets from being developed which would otherwise be able to cover the direct operational costs. There needs to be a lot more openness and transparency in the allocation and recovery of costs and there needs to be a proper policy for discounts.

As an example, if we compare a London to Paris journey, the total infrastructure charges—that is, terminal costs, handling fees and landing charges—for a flight are around £2,400; for a Eurostar train to Paris they are £21,500, of which the tunnel accounts for £12,500. Even taking account of the fact that a Eurostar train tends to carry two and a half times as many people as a plane, that is still a huge difference.

The sub-committee is right to draw attention to the spare capacity that exists in the Channel Tunnel, to which the noble Baroness referred, but it is not hard to see why that exists. It is my belief—I think that the Government share this view—that the future lies with longer-distance high-speed rail travel. I hope that the Minister will say that when he replies. The desirability of building a new high-speed railway obviously has not been part of the sub-committee’s remit for this inquiry, but I suggest that it is relevant when taking a rather longer view, particularly taking into account the Government’s decision to abandon the building of a third runway at Heathrow or to expand other capacity at other airports in the south-east—a policy that I support, as the Minister knows. The correct approach, in my view, is to manage demand for short-haul air travel and for us to follow other countries by building high-speed rail capacity. The central part of that approach will be to make proper use of the Channel Tunnel, which is why I think that the sub-committee is on the right lines.

Finally, I want to say something about another barrier to long-distance international rail travel that we have erected for ourselves in Britain. One weekend last month, I travelled by train from Budapest to Berlin and then back to Brussels, passing through five different countries. I was not subjected to a single passport or security check throughout the journey. When I got to Brussels and took the Eurostar to St Pancras, there were three passport examinations and my luggage was searched before I got on board. With great respect to the Government, it is not good enough for them to assert that these checks are necessary because Britain is not part of Schengen, and the sub-committee is right to draw attention to that. We are not searched when we board long-distance trains in Britain and I see no reason why the railway should be dragged down to the level of the airlines in this respect. I am disappointed that the Government’s response to the Select Committee report seems to be so inflexible on this issue.

I conclude as I began, by expressing my admiration to the sub-committee for producing a good report, which if implemented would be of real value to the railways, rail passengers and the country as a whole.

Airports: Heathrow

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a number of points. She referred to aircraft coming from distant countries. It is important to remember that if we insist on a later arrival time in the UK, a plane may have to leave the Far East later at night and that may cause a problem there. My noble friend talked about quieter and noisier aircraft. A quota system takes into account the noisiest aircraft, which cannot fly until later in the day.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, can the Minister give an assurance that, when the Government conduct their assessment into whether to allow more night flights, they will take into account the economic disbenefits, as well as the effects of sleep deprivation and other social effects of night flights, set against the economic benefits that may come from having more planes arriving earlier?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we will do exactly that.

Railways: Level Crossings

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support they are giving to Network Rail’s efforts to improve safety at railway level crossings.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, overall, level crossing safety performance is currently high and an industry safety framework exists to manage risks. The legal duties for safety at level crossings lie with Network Rail as the safety duty holder, while their monitoring and enforcement are the responsibility of the Office of Rail Regulation. We welcome Network Rail’s continuous efforts to reduce risks and improve level crossing safety.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I take it that the Minister accepts that rail travel is now safer than it has ever been, and that the greatest risk on the railway now comes from user-worked crossings and from motorists and other road users running red lights or weaving around barriers. British Transport Police advises us that last year there were 2,637 cases of people failing to obey traffic signals at level crossings. Can the Minister assure us that shortage of funds will not stop Network Rail installing the latest technology at the 600 riskiest user-worked crossings? Secondly, what are the Government doing to support the trialling and introduction of red light enforcement cameras? Is he aware that the Home Office is taking up to 24 months to test and approve a product for railway level crossings that is already in widespread use on A roads and motorways?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has asked quite a few questions. User-worked crossings are indeed very hazardous. There are 2,500 of them and they are often used as farm crossings. He also asked about their financing. It can be very difficult to build a good business case because of the low risk of an accident occurring at each individual crossing. He also asked me about the trialling of cameras. I am aware of this problem. Similar problems arise in respect of roadside drug-testing equipment. It is important to recognise that approval of this equipment is an important component of our legal system. I understand that the British Transport Police has not yet submitted a formal application. For my sins I am the Home Office spokesman and I will draw this matter to the attention of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.

Railways: High-speed Rail

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to the benefits of these construction projects for employment. He needs to remember that the Crossrail project is already running and providing considerable employment. He spoke also about the achievements of the Victorians. We have a slightly more developed democratic process than they had, so we cannot get the legislation through quite as fast as they were able to.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I am sure that the Minister will be heartened by the so far universal expressions of support for the Government’s decision. I should like to add to them; I think that this is a very significant day for Britain’s railways and represents a real step change in our approach to transport policy. When I was working at the railways board in the late 1980s and 1990s, an official from the Department of Transport joined the board as a non-executive member, looked around the table at his first meeting and said, “You must understand that my job is to preside over the orderly decline of the railway”. That was only 20 years ago, so this decision and the fact that the government document that goes with it contains statements such as,

“the Government does not consider that there is a case for major new motorways”,

and,

“It does not … support a new runway at Heathrow and wants to see modal shift away from domestic routes where possible”,

with the emphasis in future to be on the railway, are very significant.

Can the Minister confirm that the package of compensation proposed in the Statement is significantly more generous than that accorded to householders who are affected by road-building programmes?

Localism Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 223D. As we know, this clause, which outlines that financial considerations can be material to a planning application, was added in the Commons as an incidental measure for clarification. As the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, indicated, the Government have argued that it is the new homes bonus that has necessitated such clarification. However, by using statute rather than the traditional route of guidance, the Government are undoubtedly creating further uncertainty.

The clause elevates financial considerations above all other legitimate planning considerations, which are not mentioned here or anywhere else in statute. As such, the courts will be used to decide just what Parliament means by putting financial considerations up front as a material condition. While the government amendment goes some way to try to tackle that ambiguity, there still remains a lack of clarity about when such financial considerations could be considered material. Until now, case law has determined whether or not a financial consideration is material. Over time that has been determined as it being necessary to make the development acceptable in planning terms, directly related to the application and fairly and reasonably related in scale to the application. On Report in the Commons the Minister gave an example of materiality which related to a road scheme that accommodates a development—a direct link between the use of the money and making the application acceptable in planning terms. Further, in the Government’s response to the consultation on the new homes bonus in February this year, they stated that the new homes bonus could be lawfully taken into account as a material consideration,

“where there is a direct connection between the intended use of the Bonus and the proposed development”.

My noble friend Lord Attlee gave a useful example of such a direct link. However, this key point about the direct link is not made at all in the clause or the government amendment. This direct linkage is what case law has determined makes a financial consideration material, and it is a fundamental principle—to me at least—that guarantees the probity of planning. The Minister has made much of the CPRE opposing this clause. However, it shows skill on the part of the Government to unite the CPRE, TCPA and RTPI in opposing this clause and government amendment.

Without that clarity it can be read that financial inducements that are irrelevant to the merits of a particular development proposal can be material in determining planning applications. It is just such a lack of clarity that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rightly raised earlier when he talked about the changes around the use of the community infrastructure levy. It is quite clear that guidance will have to be issued to local authorities on how government incentives are intended to influence planning and how this will work in practice. If further clarification is needed on the relationship between financial considerations and considering planning applications, as the Government say it is, then cover that alongside government guidance about the workability of these incentives. That would avoid further legal wrangling over what Parliament intended to say by this clause. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester)]

The House is debating government Amendment 223CA, with which Amendment 223D is grouped. Therefore the noble Baroness is not able to move that amendment separately.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I think that my noble friend realised that when she started to speak. Some things become automatic as the evening goes on. I support my noble friend, who has made a very powerful case, as she has done on previous occasions.

I thought that I might be able to say tonight that the Lady at the Dispatch Box doth protest too much, but I suppose that Earls can protest too much as well. I find that as this debate goes on, the hole that the Government are digging is getting deeper and deeper. The position is not being improved by further re-emphasis. Can you have further re-emphasis? I think that we have got to that stage now—we are up to about three lots of emphasis. By adding this amendment, which says the same thing again, I become more and more concerned.

I do not want to repeat points that my noble friend Lady Parminter has made. However, the clause must mean something. It must mean something not otherwise provided for. I find it quite puzzling that the Government take the view that they need to use primary legislation to bring the matter, in the words of the noble Earl at the last stage,

“quickly to the attention of concerned parties”.—[Official Report, 20/7/11; col. 1420.]

I really do not believe that concerned parties need primary legislation to have this and the answer to it brought to their attention. The noble Earl told the House he thought that it would always be helpful, but it is not the practice, for legal advice to be shared. I asked innocently—it was not intended to be disingenuous, but probably sounded it—if we could have sight of the legal advice. I do not want this to sound ungrateful, but what we heard from the legal advice was not helpful, having got to this stage. We did not hear argument; we heard assertion. I am sure that it was not unsupported, but what was shared with the House was simply assertion.

Finally, the noble Earl talked of this certainly doing no harm. My fear is that it will do harm because it must be interpreted as meaning something that has not been the case hitherto. I support my noble friend.

Localism Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

Amendment 108 would transfer the purpose and functions of the London Transport Users’ Committee, which operates under the name London TravelWatch and is the body responsible for passenger representation within London, to the London Assembly. The amendment originates from a review conducted last year by the London Assembly, which showed that such a transfer of functions would save up to £1 million per annum of taxpayers’ money. The findings of that review were accepted by all four political parties on the London Assembly. The amendment is therefore supported by all the parties in the London Assembly, the Mayor of London and London Councils, which represents not only the political parties but all 32 London boroughs and the City of London. London TravelWatch was established under the original GLA Act, the purpose of which was to devolve powers and responsibilities to London. That all those elements in London are wholly behind this measure, which saves a significant amount of public money, ought in itself to be enough to persuade the Government to comply with the wishes of London’s elected representatives.

However, I understand that the Government have some concerns. Indeed, during the Recess I had a letter in the name of the noble Baroness the Minister. Let me try to address some of the concerns set out there. Quite rightly, there is a concern to ensure that passenger interests in London are effectively and properly represented by a genuinely independent body. As many of us know, whatever else it is, the structure of London government is unique. The London Assembly is solely a scrutiny body. It has no executive or regulatory powers at all; its function is to scrutinise and hold to account not only the mayor but also the functional bodies. I speak as a member of the London Assembly’s transport committee for some years and I do not think it will surprise anyone to learn that a substantial part of that committee’s work is holding Transport for London and, to a lesser extent, other transport operators in London, to account. It does so very independently because it has no responsibility for TfL—indeed, exactly the opposite. Its members are directly elected by Londoners, as distinct from the members of London TravelWatch, who do an extremely good job but are appointed by the London Assembly. The budget for London Transport—I am sorry, London TravelWatch—is provided by the London Assembly, so again it cannot be argued that the assembly is in some way less independent than the body it appoints and whose budget it provides.

I am sure that again it will come as no surprise to noble Lords to learn that a substantial part of the casework of most London Assembly members, particularly those representing constituencies, is on transport-related issues since they relate to anyone who has to live, work or travel in London. Of course a lot of work for members arises from that, and they are in touch with their constituents on transport issues. Making them officially the passenger representative body can only enhance that and join up the two sides.

The argument was also put that nothing had been said about the workload of the casework. That was because the purpose of this amendment is simply to transfer the function. However, I am sure that if the function were transferred, the wherewithal to carry out that function would follow it. It is not for me to say, but I would assume and expect that the current staff in London Transport—I mean London TravelWatch; I keep making the same mistake—would very likely transfer across under TUPE regulations. That would be a matter for discussion, should this happen. However, without doubt the London Assembly will need to have the capacity to carry out the necessary casework.

Finally, I make a point for serious consideration by the Government. If changes are to be made to London TravelWatch, we need to remember that it was set up under the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and that primary legislation will be needed to change that. I suspect that we will not see this or any other Government introducing a London TravelWatch Bill in the near future so some other vehicle will need to be found in order to make whatever the changes may be. I think, and dare I say I hope, that that may be some way off. Therefore the opportunity arises in this Bill to carry out the wishes of all of London’s elected representatives, to save a substantial amount of public money—more necessary than ever at the present time—and, I would venture to suggest, to provide a strong, independent, directly elected and directly accountable passenger representative body. I beg to move.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I am sure the House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for moving this amendment and giving us an opportunity to discuss the case of passenger representation in London. However, it may not surprise him to know that I take considerable exception to the case that he, the mayor and the Greater London Assembly are putting forward because I think it is fundamentally flawed. I am aware that it has come about as a result of the review of London TravelWatch carried out last year by the GLA, which did indeed recommend that it be wound up and its functions folded into the assembly. However, that process was seriously flawed. The assembly consulted a number of stakeholders, but then completely ignored what they said. For example, the Association of Train Operating Companies, ATOC, has written to me and said:

“We firmly believe that the functions of a consumer watchdog, in providing impartial casework and research support, and facilitating the resolution of individual complaints with train companies should be demonstrably independent, not under direct political control.

Assembly Members are keen to point out that taking on London TravelWatch's activities will help them to provide greater scrutiny of the mayor's and GLA's activities. However, we believe the priority for London TravelWatch should be handling disputes from individual passengers as a consumer champion and undertaking independent research, not being sidetracked on to issues of political or electoral interest to Assembly Members. Passengers will not benefit if London TravelWatch becomes merely a means for point-scoring”.

The assembly's review claims—and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, has referred to this—that there is scope for substantial savings. The review is vague about where those savings will come from. There does not appear to be any reference to transitional costs or to the cost of the GLA accommodating the staff, although the noble Lord, Lord Tope, did say that a TUPE arrangement may apply, which would undoubtedly have an impact on whatever savings may be possible.

London TravelWatch itself has demonstrated that it can cut its budget by 25 per cent over the next two years, while staying completely independent from politicians and concentrating on its core functions of appeals casework, and policy and investigation. There is a huge danger that the present multimodal work on behalf of the travelling public who use buses, the underground, the Docklands Light Railway, Tramlink, taxis, Dial-a-Ride, and National Rail in and around London would be fragmented if this amendment were adopted. It makes no sense to separate London TravelWatch's rail-related work from its work covering other modes. An example is its excellent, recent report on incomplete Oyster pay, which affects everyone who uses public transport in and around London.

I conclude with one further point: the GLA does not speak for those who are not resident in London. Seventy per cent of all rail journeys begin, end, or pass through London and London TravelWatch's remit extends far beyond the boundaries of Greater London, and includes large chunks of Essex, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Surrey and Kent, and it is from there that passengers travel into London for work or leisure purposes.

This is a really bad idea, which would lead Londoners to be disadvantaged compared with those outside London, who have independent representation on Passenger Focus, looking after their needs, whether they are rail or bus passengers. It is that independence that is important, and that is why I hope the Government will resist this amendment.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Tope moved the amendment comprehensively and I only want to make two points. The first point, which has been referred to by those who have already spoken in the debate, is that the September 2010 report by the London Assembly was a very substantial document indeed. It was not entered upon lightly and inadvisably. Despite what we have just heard, it was conducted with great thoroughness and we then came to the conclusion that there was no point, if you have an elected assembly already, in having a second, different body dealing with transport. It was a serious piece of work and the degree of support which my noble friend Lord Tope has indicated is sufficient evidence of that.

My second point is that all local authorities are under stringent spending pressures. Here is a proposal which could save up to £1 million a year for London. In the present circumstances, it is rather unwise not to accept that that is something which should be considered very seriously indeed. I understand the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and the case that has been made by London TravelWatch. At the same time, there is here a formidable piece of work. It will save £1 million and the proposals in the report should be accepted. I therefore put my name to this amendment in order to give the House a chance to make that change.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I was tempted to speak by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, as she was tempted to speak by me on the previous amendment. I have a great deal of sympathy with the points she is making. I will start with a correction—also for the noble Lord, Lord Spicer—that it is not only one platform at Waterloo that is out of use; it is platforms 21, 22, 23 and 24. I think I am right in saying that it is 21 and 22 which are being used by the production of “The Railway Children”, which I can recommend unreservedly. I speak as a trustee of the National Rail Museum, as it is very much our play.

[Baroness Kramer]

Without being a train wonk on this, there is only one platform that has been converted for domestic use. The other platforms could be, but that work has not been done.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, is quite correct. As I said, I have a great deal of sympathy with the point she makes but my concern is that the introduction of a new franchising authority, which the amendment proposes, would be in danger of creating greater fragmentation of the railway than we have at present. I agree with her that there are probably too many train operating companies. It is the Government’s intention that franchises should be longer than they have been in the past, and I strongly support that. However, to introduce a new franchising operator could lead to confusion and fragmentation. My noble friend Lord Berkeley refers to services that serve London but go well beyond. The classic example of that is the Thameslink line, which starts in Bedford, goes through Luton and St Albans—none of which is covered by Transport for London or the GLA—and then goes south from Croydon to Brighton.

Services like that need to be looked at in a regional context, and I am not certain that looking at them in a London context would make a great deal of sense. However, I pay tribute to what Transport for London has done in the development of its Overground service. The opening up of the East London line is an extraordinarily successful venture. The trains are very popular and they provide new journey opportunities for people who probably did not make those journeys, or tried to do it by car, or struggled on buses. It deserves to be commended for that.

I agree with my noble friend that it is helpful to have this debate, but this amendment is not quite the way that we should go.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I understand the intention behind my noble friend’s amendment; namely, that the mayor and TfL should have greater control over London’s commuter rail franchises, given their wider transport responsibilities. As my noble friend Lady Hanham said in her letter following the Committee stage, TfL already plays an important role in relation to London’s commuter rail services. It already has, as pointed out by my noble friend, effectively full franchising powers over the London Underground concession, covering a number of key routes across London. It works closely with the Department for Transport in the development of other rail franchises affecting London, with the mayor having the ability to pay for outputs over and above those that the DfT specifies. By the way, I undertake to look up in the dictionary the definition of “decrement”.

The devolution of other London commuter rail franchises to the mayor and TfL is not a straightforward matter. The geography of London’s commuter rail network does not sit well with London’s administrative boundaries, with many lines extending well into neighbouring counties, as pointed out by many noble Lords. Furthermore, capacity on much of the London commuter network is limited, and there are inherent conflicts between London-area and non-London services that need to be balanced in the best interests of all users, and to keep overall costs down.

I am afraid my noble friend did not satisfy me in how the balance would be struck between the needs of commuters who live in London, and who elect the mayor and the Assembly, and those living in Luton, Brighton and Woking, who do not. There is a real question of a democratic accountability deficit if other London commuter rail services are devolved to the mayor, as many commuters do not live in London so do not have the opportunity to participate in the elections.

Nevertheless, the Department for Transport is happy to engage TfL further about the devolution of local rail services, in the context of Sir Roy McNulty’s independent study on rail value for money earlier this year. This study suggested that more local control of rail services could contribute to the development of lower-cost regional railways and, in line with the Government’s localism agenda, we are considering options for more local control of some rail services in other parts of England. We will also continue to encourage operators to work more closely with TfL. The new working arrangements, put in place for the South Central franchise which was let in 2009, appear to be working well.

On this basis, I urge my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.

Diplomatic Missions: Unpaid Congestion Charges and Parking Fines

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to recover unpaid congestion charges and parking fines incurred by diplomatic missions.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, two-thirds of all foreign missions pay the London congestion charge, but as diplomatic missions are immune from prosecution in UK courts, there is no legal course of action which Her Majesty’s Government or local authorities can take to enforce payment of the congestion charge or parking fines. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Transport for London and other local authorities continue to press non-paying diplomatic missions to pay the clearly outstanding congestion charges and parking fines.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I thank the Minister very much for that Answer—disappointing though it is, I am afraid. Does he agree that this is an absurd situation which cannot go on indefinitely? The total in unpaid congestion charge penalties rose from £36 million at the start of last year to £52 million by the end of April. Is not the answer perhaps for the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary to sit down quietly with the American ambassador—who owes £5 million of those fines to the people of London—and explain to him that this is not a tax: it is a legitimate charge for services rendered under Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations? If the American ambassador were to do it, I am sure that the others would follow.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord suggests that this situation could go on indefinitely. My noble friend Lord King, who briefed me, told me that he had to deal with this issue during his time in office, so it is a long-running problem. On the noble Lord’s second question, I understand that the mayor has had a chat with the President of the United States, but he still did not get very far.

Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Friday 13th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, first, I declare an unpaid interest as vice-president of the Football Conference.

It is a great pleasure for me to have been asked to take forward this legislation, which was introduced in another place by Jonathan Lord, the Member of Parliament for Woking, who was elected in May last year. I am pleased to pay tribute to his commitment to steering this Private Member’s Bill through all its stages in the other place, and to his extraordinary good fortune in securing a Second Reading before he had even made his maiden speech.

The Bill enjoys all-party support, and is one for which the previous Administration had hoped to find time but was unable to do so. The Bill, if enacted, will rename the Football Licensing Authority the Sports Grounds Safety Authority. It will enable the provision of advice, on request, about safety at sports grounds to any national or international organisation, person or body. It would also allow the new authority to charge for these services in certain circumstances.

The FLA was set up under the Football Spectators Act 1989, originally to oversee the introduction of a compulsory membership scheme, which at the time was seen—particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—as the best way to respond to the many incidences of football crowd violence in the 1980s. However, before the Act could be implemented, almost 100 people lost their lives at an FA Cup semi-final match on 15 April 1989 at Hillsborough in Sheffield. A major public inquiry was then conducted by Lord Justice Taylor, which reported that the scale of the disaster might have been even worse had a compulsory membership scheme been in force. That section of the Act was then shelved and has not reappeared since.

Instead, Lord Justice Taylor’s principal recommendation was that the grounds of Britain’s professional football clubs should eliminate standing and become all-seated. This was accepted by the Conservative Government of the day, and supported by subsequent Labour Administrations. The one variation was to exempt clubs in the lower two divisions of the Football League from the requirement to go all-seated. The Football Licensing Authority was given the responsibility of licensing grounds and helping to ensure spectator safety. It is the author of the world’s leading sports safety publication, known as the Green Guide. Its expertise is valued and respected nationally and internationally. No other country has an organisation quite like the FLA. It is a lean and efficient organisation that offers excellent value for money. It has a small but experienced workforce, including nine inspectors who are based in the regions. These inspectors work closely with football clubs and local authorities to educate, advise and influence. The majority of football spectators who attend matches on a weekly basis are unaware of the outstanding work of the FLA behind the scenes to help ensure that their experience is safe, comfortable and secure, and the FLA works hard to ensure that this experience should be available to all spectators, regardless of age, gender, ethnic origin, disability or, indeed, the team that they support.

The proposed changes will not extend the FLA’s licensing functions, or local authority oversight duties under the 1989 Act to sports grounds other than football grounds. There will therefore be no increased regulatory burden. Extending the FLA’s advisory role will, however, make it easier to provide advice to a wider range of sports and bodies as we approach some of the biggest sporting events that this country has ever staged. These include the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics, and the Rugby World Cup in 2015.

[Lord Mawhinney]

I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, who is an expert. I declare an interest as honorary president of the Football League, and for the past seven and a half years as its chairman, so I endorse all the good things that he says about the Football Licensing Authority. Given that this is an up-to-date reflection of a 1989 Act of Parliament, is it not missing an opportunity to allow the Football Licensing Authority to promote safety as well as to offer advice on it?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to remind the House that it is most effective to allow the noble Lord proposing a Bill to lay out his stall and then for debate to proceed in the normal way.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, for his kind words. I would like to reflect on what he has said. Perhaps I can respond to him when I reply to the debate. I certainly understand completely the point he is making about the importance of promoting safety.

The FLA is already providing expertise on non-football venues to the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and the joint local authority regulatory services. However, at present, this is possible only by negotiating individual temporary secondment arrangements. Creating the Sports Grounds Safety Authority would make it easier to provide such advice and help to provide greater consistency in its application nationally and internationally. An example of this can be seen in the Green Guide. The FLA is retained by the DCMS to provide detailed guidance on measures to improve safety at sports grounds through the Green Guide. The advice applies to all sports, not just football, and is used around the world by technical specialists such as architects and engineers, and by relevant authorities that oversee safety in sports stadia. Although the guidance applies only to outdoor sports venues, its recommendations are often applied to indoor sporting venues as well.

At present, the FLA cannot readily offer more detailed advice on the contents of the Green Guide to sports other than football, or outside England and Wales. This Bill will enable that advice to be provided nationally and internationally, and to a much wider range of sports than ever before. The FLA carries out some international activity, but it is at the moment somewhat limited. The FLA currently supports the Council of Europe and the European Committee for Standardisation by providing UK representatives to their working groups. The FLA’s contribution is highly valued by their international counterparts, and their involvement enhances the FLA’s knowledge, understanding and credibility. This activity brings reputational benefits for the UK, with the chance to promote our role as a world leader in sports ground safety throughout Europe. However, under current provisions, the FLA is constrained in the extent to which it can operate at an international level.

The Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill would increase the opportunities for international activity at a very opportune time. In 2012, Poland and Ukraine will host the European Championships. In 2014, Brazil will host the World Cup, and Russia and Qatar have already begun preparations for 2018 and 2022. The FLA is uniquely placed to offer expertise and guidance to help ensure that the safety management arrangements are in place for these events and are properly robust. It is important that the FLA acts now to realise those benefits, and this legislation would help it do so.

In the other place, questions were rightly asked about costs as well as benefits. One or two of your Lordships who are speaking in this debate might wish to raise the subject of costs. The provisions in the Bill would enable the Sports Grounds Safety Authority to charge in certain circumstances. The legislation allows for charges to be applied, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to bodies or persons outside England or Wales, or to bodies in England and Wales where the advice is provided at the request of the recipient. The key point here is that consent would be required. It has been made clear that any charges levied would be reasonable and proportionate, and that, where charges were applied, they would be calculated on a cost recovery basis. In the event that the Bill is successful, the Sports Grounds Safety Authority would need to look in more detail at the options for charging and cost recovery. However, I have been assured that the requirement to seek permission from the Secretary of State will offer appropriate safeguards. I should say that, in bringing forward this legislation, it was never the intention to apply charges for activities that are currently provided free of charge. However, it will be important for the authority to be able to levy charges that are appropriate and necessary, particularly for new or additional services, or services that are provided above and beyond the authority’s statutory obligations.

The provisions in the Bill extend to England and Wales only. However, bodies in Scotland and Northern Ireland will be able to access the expertise of the new Sports Grounds Safety Authority on request. The FLA has been in contact with officials in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about provisions in the Bill and will continue to keep in touch with them as more detailed plans for how the new safety authority will operate are developed.

Establishing the Sports Grounds Safety Authority is an important and necessary step in the evolution of the FLA. In Committee on the Public Bodies Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, said in response to me that the FLA,

“will continue as a separate body … until after 2012 when its expertise and functions will be transferred”—[Official Report, 11/1/11; col. 1345.]

elsewhere. I think the Minister would be the first to admit that this was a slightly vague commitment. I hope that we shall hear more from the Government about where the authority will be located before the Bill completes its passage through your Lordships’ House.

Before I conclude, the House may find it convenient if I quickly run through the various parts of the Bill. Part 1 sets out the further powers that will be conferred on the Football Licensing Authority as a result of the legislation. Clause 1 would rename the Football Licensing Authority the Sports Grounds Safety Authority. The existing functions of the Football Licensing Authority, as set out in the Football Spectators Act 1989, will remain, and the authority will continue to receive funds from the Secretary of State. Funding will be as set out in the current funding settlement, with grant in aid of £1.197 million in 2011-12, reducing to £1.14 million by 2014-15.

Clause 2 provides for the authority to advise Ministers by placing an obligation on the authority to advise Ministers, if requested, on sports grounds or the functions set out in the relevant legislation or sections of legislation. These include the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, Part 3 of the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987 and the Football Spectators Act 1989.

Clause 3 allows the authority to advise on safety at sports grounds to local authorities, other bodies or persons in England and Wales. This enables the authority to provide advice beyond football and in relation to other sports grounds.

Clause 4 enables the authority to provide advice to bodies or persons outside England and Wales, subject to that advice being at the request of the body or person concerned, and with the consent of the Secretary of State. This could include an international organisation or Government, or other body or person with responsibilities for sports grounds outside England and Wales, and would include the local and national government and sports bodies in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Clause 5 includes provisions to enable the authority, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to charge a fee for advice. The fee could be charged to bodies or persons outside England and Wales, or within England and Wales where the advice is provided at their request. Any fee charged must not exceed the cost of providing the advice, and consent from the Secretary of State may be given generally or specifically for particular advice or types of advice.

Clause 6 makes provision for the consequential amendments that will be required in other legislation to reflect the change to the new body. These are set out in more detail in Schedules 2 and 3.

Clause 7 confirms that the Act extends to England and Wales only. However, as I have said, the authority will be able, under certain conditions, to advise bodies outside England and Wales.

Clause 8 provides for the commencement of the Act on a day specified by statutory instrument. It is the intention that the legislation, if passed, should commence as soon as possible to enable the full benefit of the authority’s expanded role to be realised.

Schedule 1 sets out provisions relating to the board, employees and accounting arrangements of the authority. These would mirror arrangements that are currently in place for the FLA.

Schedules 2 and 3 include consequential amendments, repeals and revocations that are required to update existing legislation in the event that the Bill is passed.

The Bill provides a unique opportunity to share the FLA’s unrivalled knowledge and experience with other sports and nations. It will maintain the services and standards provided to football, but will extend the FLA’s reach and influence for wider benefit. I commend the Bill to the House, and I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I am a little overwhelmed by the degree of support that this Bill has received in all parts of the House. It is very gratifying and I am sure that when the honourable Member for Woking comes to read this debate, he, too, will be gratified that this Bill has had so much success. I am not allowed to refer to the fact that he is here listening to it.

In taking up some of the points raised, perhaps I can start with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, who asked why we do not take advantage of using the Bill to promote safety. That is a good question but the FLA already has a remit to promote safety, which it does though education, advice and persuasion. It takes the view that the publication of the Green Guide and its safety management booklets are part of that promotion of safety. It also runs a number of courses at places such as the Emergency Planning College in York to do that. That part of the FLA's work is already under way, so the promotion of safety is covered.

A number of similar comments were made by several noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, was concerned—as I would expect from a great rugby player—about the role of the FLA in helping rugby. The authorities in both rugby union and rugby league are already very interested in talking to the FLA. So are the authorities for cricket and horseracing. They are keen to seek advice and talk about the experience that the FLA has had. The hope is that with the passage of the Bill, the work can be extended. I say to my noble friend Lady Billingham that if tennis authorities are concerned about safety at their institutions, the opportunity is there for them as well.

My noble friend Lord Watson, in an interesting and thoughtful speech, raised a number of subjects that I will try to cover. First, I thank him for his kind words about the role that I played in the 1970s and 1980s. The body of which I was deputy chairman—which the late Lord Aberdare chaired—was the Football Trust. The Football Grounds Improvement Trust was a sister organisation. We were charged with providing the funding to assist football to comply with the provisions of the Hillsborough report from Lord Justice Taylor. The safety work had been carried out from 1975 onwards by the Football Grounds Improvement Trust.

If plaudits are being offered to people working in this area, my noble friend Lord Pendry, who succeeded Lord Aberdare as chairman of the Football Trust, and was then the first chairman of the Football Foundation, also deserves a great deal of credit. There has been a consistent, cross-party approach to these matters. We have all done our best to ensure that the terrible disasters that occurred in the 1970s and 1980s are not repeated.

My noble friend Lord Watson referred to AFC Wimbledon, which may next Saturday be members of the Football League. It is already in discussion with the Football Licensing Authority, and I am assured that its ground will comply with Football League standards and the requirements of the FLA, and will obtain a licence.

The Minister answered the difficult question, which I did not wish to enter into, about the reintroduction of standing at matches. That is not a matter for me; it is one of public policy. The FLA will do what the Minister asks. She has given her view on whether standing will come back at the top level, in the Premiership and Championship.

My noble friend Lord Grantchester also made some important points. He referred of course to Hillsborough. I, too, have a personal recollection; I was there on that day and it was the most terrible event at any sporting occasion that one could imagine. Certainly it gave all of us a sense that the world had to change and that we could never run the risk of similar things happening in future. The report from Lord Justice Taylor and the establishment of the Football Licensing Authority, with its role after Hillsborough, are important elements of that.

My noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham asked searching questions about funding, which the Minister answered. The funding of the FLA is a matter for the DCMS, not for me. However, I am assured that the FLA takes the view that it came out of the spending review settlement rather more favourably than other bodies, and I have heard no suggestion that it will not be able to take on the increased role that the Bill will give it if it becomes an Act. A number of noble Lords, including the Minister, made it clear that charges will be proportionate and will be based on cost recovery. There is no question of the grant in aid that the FLA receives being replaced by a charging regime paid for by the bodies that receive either advice or licences from it.

My noble friend Lord Watson raised an interesting question about whether there were conflicting requirements for advice to Ministers in Clauses 2(1)(a) and 3(2)(a). I am delighted to say that I have an answer. The new authority may not provide advice to the Minister under Clause 3(2)(a) because the Minister would then have to pay for it. Therefore, the advice will be given under Clause 2, not Clause 3. That seems to be a very sensible approach.

My noble friend Lord Grantchester referred to Scotland and Northern Ireland. I will deal in a moment with the Berwick question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. It is important when looking at Scotland and Northern Ireland, and at sports ground safety in general, to bear in mind that there are three pieces of legislation that cover sports ground safety in the UK. Only one applies specifically to England and Wales and is relevant to the Football Licensing Authority. The first piece of legislation is the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, which came about as a result of the disaster at a Glasgow Rangers game at Ibrox. It provides for the designation of any ground that has accommodation for more than 10,000 spectators, or 5,000 in the case of Premiership or Football League grounds in England and Wales. All designated grounds, including those in Scotland, are required to have a safety certificate issued and enforced by the local authority under the provisions of the Act.

The second Act also came out of a tragedy, in this case the fire at Bradford City’s ground. The Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987 extended provision to cover regulated stands. A regulated stand is any covered stand at a non-designated ground with accommodation for 500 or more spectators, whether seated or standing. The local authority is responsible for determining which stands at sports grounds in its area are regulated.

The Football Spectators Act established the Football Licensing Authority. It gave it the power to oversee how local authorities discharge their responsibilities under the provisions of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act, and the power to issue licences to admit spectators to sports grounds that are used for designated matches. A designated match is defined, in the Football Spectators (Designation of Football Matches in England and Wales) Order 2000, as

“any association football match which is played at Wembley Stadium, at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff or at a sports ground in England and Wales which is registered with the Football League or the Football Association Premier League as the home ground of a club which is a member of the Football League or the Football Association Premier League at the time the match is played”.

That does not include Scotland; Scotland's grounds are licensed under different legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, raised the question of Berwick, which was covered in what I have just said about the different pieces of legislation. As he rightly points out, Berwick is in England but the team plays in the third division of the Scottish Football League. Therefore, the provisions of Part 1 of the Football Spectators Act 1989 do not cover Berwick Rangers. This Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill does not seek to alter the FLA's powers under the 1989 Act. However, it will allow the FLA to provide advice and guidance to any sports ground in England, Wales or Scotland, if it is sought. Therefore, the Bill will allow Berwick Rangers to a obtain advice, but the club is not covered by the legislation. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Lyell]

The noble Lord has been more than gracious and kind. Clause 27(6) of the Football Spectators Act 1989 states:

“This Act, except paragraph 14 of Schedule 2”—

which I think covers Northern Ireland—

“extends to England and Wales only”.

Will the noble Lord please write to me and explain why the provisions that he has been explaining about the Scottish Football League should not apply to Berwick Rangers because its ground is in England? The 1989 Act applies to England and Wales. Will he write to me to explain why he said that it is different because Berwick Rangers plays in the Scottish Football League?

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I would be very happy to write to the noble Lord. The answer is that Berwick Rangers plays in a competition that is not covered by this legislation—but I will write and give the noble Lord chapter and verse in answer.

I think that I have answered the main points which have been raised. If there is anything that I have missed, I hope that noble Lords will allow me to write to them. I thank the Minister for her gracious and very helpful answer. We await with great interest the deliberations of the Government on where the FLA or the Sports Grounds Safety Authority finally finds a home. I am sure the fact that the Government are committed to the Bill and its continuation will be read with great interest and a great deal of relief. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken for the support that they have given to the Bill, and it is my pleasure to commend the Bill to the House.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.