Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Berkeley

Monday 2nd July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I am sure that most of us travelling through airports have been approached at one time or another by the person with the dreaded clipboard. No doubt all noble Lords here were free and giving of their time and answers to help these people establish their true feelings.

Whether the particular methodology contained in these amendments is right, I am not sure. No one wants to add to the difficulties of getting a licence or to the bureaucracy involved. Nevertheless, underneath all that, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is making a fundamental point that we all share. There have been a number of cases in recent years where the whole image of this country and the welfare of many thousands of passengers have undoubtedly been put to the test. Unfortunately, on some occasions, the relevant airports have failed that test. One constantly hears that there is an absence of information being fed back to the passenger.

Of course, these emergencies obviously come out of the blue in many cases. Sometimes the airports are not properly prepared, they do not have enough staff or facilities and one understands that this is not easy to cure. Nevertheless, it should be at the core of what we are trying to do. We are trying to make aviation more efficient but, in parallel with that, we have to make it a more pleasurable experience.

In so many walks of life—we are talking mostly about finance—consumer welfare and consumer benefits are put at the core of many of the things that we do in this country. That is right and there is therefore some merit in these amendments. Whether this methodology is the right one is not necessarily the issue today. The point is that there is a fundamental issue, and I hope that the Minister will refer to it in his reply. Should there be a broadly understood standard that would apply to all airport operators in the event that an emergency will arise, as it inevitably will; and how are people to be treated? Are we to continue to see our television screens covered with images of passengers complaining about their treatment, delays and lack of information?

In order to raise standards, which is our general objective, there should surely be some methodology. I have an open mind as to whether or not it should be this precise mechanism but I hope the Minister will at least acknowledge that this must be at the core of what we do.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, following the comment of my noble friend Lord Soley about immigration, by coincidence I have in the Crime and Courts Bill an amendment about the immigration service which may be discussed later tonight. The service is woefully inadequate, as my noble friend said. The delays are reflecting very badly on the country.

Passenger satisfaction should be measured in respect of immigration delays as well as many other things, because they are quite significant. My suggestion that I shall probably put tonight is that the immigration service should be given targets. I am not sure that this Government like targets but there might be a target for people with EU passports to wait for not more than 10 minutes, and for those from third countries to wait for not more than half an hour. We can debate what the targets should be. The crucial thing is that the immigration service should be required to pay some kind of compensation to the airlines if they exceed those targets, unless there is an emergency or something like that.

As several noble Lords have said, the key is to have this information. I would much rather see it come from the licence holder than from the immigration service, which might be tempted to massage the figures slightly. My noble friend Lord Davies can think about whether it should go in as a further amendment on Report, but we ought to measure this matter along with some of these other issues to get independent information on passenger satisfaction regarding everything they see when they arrive at or leave an airport.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Berkeley

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I wanted to speak briefly to Amendment 110 and to make a few other comments, but it would be a brave Ulsterman who would take on the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on a Welsh amendment. However, I assure him that I want merely to talk about the principle here. Although the Bill does not apply specifically to Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Local Government Association has asked me to raise some matters of principle, because if the principle is established in the Bill that local authorities will or could be liable for EU fines, sooner or later it will have national significance. While some EU directives may often have specific geographical implications, others have wider national implications.

I do not have a problem with the principle that the polluter pays, but it has to be understood that local government throughout the United Kingdom is not a universal picture. Local authorities in Northern Ireland have far fewer powers than those in the rest of the United Kingdom. They also raise most of their own money—more than 80 per cent—by rates. Consequently, they do not have a large central government grant, as is the case in England. Therefore, it is not possible for the Government simply to reduce the grant that local authorities in Northern Ireland receive in order to take the money off them, because they do not get it in the first place. If you impose a fine on a Northern Ireland local authority, you impose it directly on the ratepayer. That has to be understood.

The other matter is that the powers of local councils vary considerably. The Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland is largely responsible for local government, but other groups and public bodies will perhaps share policy implementation with local councils. Air and water pollution have been talked about. Local councils obviously have or could have an environmental health role in this, but other public bodies might be responsible for other aspects, including water pollution, sewage and so on.

The Northern Ireland Local Government Association, in consultation with other local government bodies, including the LGA, has expressed concern—not only because they have not been consulted about the measures, but because, although the Bill does not directly affect them at present, they believe that sooner or later it will. That is because EU fines have a national implication, as well as a local one. It was, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, who said that he was not aware that EU fines had started to be imposed. I can assure him that they have, because I know, at home, our Department of Agriculture is being fined very heavily over issues concerning mapping. Grants were being distributed on the basis of maps, and now we have armies of planners who, as a result of not having much to do during the recession, are poring over aerial maps, because in the designation of fields, the boundaries of areas of rough ground may have become unclear. Brussels is now saying that people have been double claiming and doing all sorts of things. I can assure the noble Lord that fines are being imposed, exemplary damages are being applied, and the fines are vastly in excess of the amount of money that may have been inappropriately spent or given to a particular claimant. The Government are being fined millions of pounds above that. We are talking about substantial issues.

[Lord Berkeley]

I should like to say that it was not me who suggested that the British Government had not been fined.

[Lord Empey]

I beg your pardon; I may have picked up a comment from someone else.

When the Government are finalising what they are going to do on this issue, they need to take into account the significant regional disparities. One understands that the Government are trying to establish the point that the polluter pays. However, the big issue with all this is that we send representatives to Brussels—and I do not know whether the late-night hospitality and the all-night sessions are to blame—decisions can be forced through at 4 am and our representatives keep putting their hands up to approve them. Then, five or six years later, they blame Brussels for enforcing those decisions when it is they who have agreed to them. I have to say: beware the late-night hospitality. We should pick representatives who are good at doing this at night. In a negotiation, I fear that the officials will know full well that a certain Minister has to get away to an event somewhere else, perhaps at 1 pm the following day, and know that if they push for a decision at 3 am or 4 am, the Minister will put their hands up and agree to anything. I seriously suggest that we be careful what we agree to, because it comes back to haunt us many years later.

I accept that the provision in the Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland, and it is not entirely clear as to whether it applies even to Wales. The Minister may answer that this is an England-only Bill, but while local government is a reserved or devolved matter in certain areas, EU fines are, of course, a national issue or a reserved matter. The interface where these issues collide is not entirely clear to me, and I sincerely hope that the noble Baroness will take this into account when she replies.