Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, nothing in the Bill would prevent that. This is about choice at a local level. As we have already heard, there are provisions for local authorities to have prayers or not have them. We have heard from two Members on both sides of the House who are, today, members of local authorities, neither of which has prayers. If a coercive practice were already in place, surely those two Members who have spoken—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton—would have said that their local authority needed to have prayers. Neither has prayers, which again shows the openness of what is being suggested. Indeed, all we are asking for here—and the Government support the Bill—is the opportunity for people to be given a choice. I know that that is not something that my noble friend objects to.
Perhaps I may turn to the amendments. One of the key objectives of the Bill is to give authorities, including, crucially, those authorities that cannot exercise the general power of competence, the freedom to include in their formal business prayers or other religious observance or observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and other noble Lords that, for the purposes of the Bill, religion is not defined; rather, the Bill refers to,
“observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief”,
as other noble Lords have pointed out, and to “religious observance” as well. The definition is wide enough to embrace what might be described as mainstream religions but it also includes those with a sincerely held belief that is not conventional. Therefore, we consider that the Bill is inclusive. We have no desire—nor is it the intention of the Bill—to produce an exhaustive list of what is and is not to be considered a religion or, in this case, prayers.
On a lighter note, when I first joined your Lordships’ House, I came from the private sector. My right honourable friend Eric Pickles has been referred to. When I became a Government Whip, I was told that every Wednesday morning Eric held prayers. I thought, “This is novel. We’re going to turn up and have prayers with Eric”. However, it was a reflection of what we term “certain meetings”, and I think that those are reflections of our traditions. Perhaps the definition of prayer—which is very wide—is, as the noble Baroness suggested, one that allows local authorities to decide, if they so choose, to have a moment of reflection rather than a formal prayer service according to one religion or another.
We consider it right that authorities should have this freedom and right that they should be able to decide for themselves whether to include town hall prayers as part of official business. It is right because, as I have said, we live in a multifaith nation that respects all faiths and those who have none, and it is right because we should provide a local choice and, where a council wishes to hold town hall prayers as part of its official business, it should not be denied that freedom. I reassure noble Lords that the Bill does not compel town halls to adopt prayers. Nobody who does not wish to attend prayers as part of official business will be required to do so. Town halls may decide to have no prayers or to have a moment of reflection. That is part of the Bill, and the amendment seeks to remove that granting of freedom.
Amendment 2, coupled with Amendment 5, would introduce two new and, we believe, unnecessary restrictions, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out, on the decision-making process in town halls. It is unnecessary because there is no need to require a two-thirds majority to enable a local authority to hold town hall prayers. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay ably described, this would mean that a minority might vote against prayers but still stop the council holding them as part of its official business. Do we want a minority stopping a majority from taking part in an item of business that nobody is compelled to take part in? That is exactly what the Bill is intended to put a stop to.
Nor is it necessary for a decision to include town hall prayers as part of official business to remain valid for only 12 months. The Government have worked hard to reduce red tape in councils, to remove burdens and to make town hall decision-making more transparent and accountable. This amendment would introduce, into a Bill that is about freedom to choose, a compulsion to revisit, year after year, a decision that has been taken and agreed. Councils are, of course, free to decide one way or the other on whether to include town hall prayers as part of its official business, and they are also free to reconsider their decision, but they should not be compelled to do so every 12 months.
I was interested to see the amendment that seeks to replace the Bill’s—if I may describe it as such—non-definition of town hall prayers with a definition of an act of worship. As I have already said, the Bill is carefully drafted to avoid the definition of prayer, religion or belief. The provision as drafted ensures that town halls are not limited to any particular act of worship or observance. This amendment may be intended to ensure that, through silence, no offence is caused. However, that would go against the Bill’s intent to recognise all faiths, and respect those with none, by compelling those who would otherwise vocalise their observance to remain silent. I worry that the amendment also goes against the transparency and accountability that we have worked so hard to ensure become part of town hall culture. I am also concerned that it seeks to silence those who would wish to make clear their belief.
Another amendment seeks to limit the time that the council may spend on an item of business—in this case, town hall payers or an observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief—to five minutes. I find that somewhat peculiar. I presume it is to ensure that town hall prayers do not take up too much valuable time. I have already mentioned transparency and accountability. We have ensured that the public can report on the proceedings of town hall meetings and I would imagine that the only measure of time deemed to be unreasonable for any item of council business is the length of time that the electorate consider unreasonable, no matter what the business. As it is, local councils determine themselves, generally in guidance, how long should be spent on different agenda items.
In conclusion, we should trust local authorities and councillors to serve the interests of the public to whom they are accountable, without the need for any steer about how long they should take over this or that item of business. We should trust councils and the electorate. This Bill is all about choice—the choice of whether to allow or not to allow—and that choice is best made by those who are elected at a local level to serve their local electorate. With these assurances, I again reiterate the Government’s support of this Bill. After we have heard from my noble friend, I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for his robust and totally convincing defence of a Bill that I had the honour to present to your Lordships’ House a couple of weeks ago. I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this interesting and stimulating debate over the past hour. Second Reading came at a rather awkward time on a Friday two weeks ago. Most of your Lordships had been exhausted by the overseas aid Bill and, other than myself, there was only one Back-Bench speaker, namely the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I thanked him then and I thank him again now.
In effect, we have had a Second Reading debate over the last hour and I make no complaint about that. Amendment 1, moved by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, would remove the first part of the Bill and its whole underlying purpose. The noble Earl is rather fortunate that he is in your Lordships’ House and not in another place. I speak as one who, in another place, was a chairman of committees for 15 years and had to decide on amendments with the advice of clerks. In another place, Amendment 1 would have been considered a wrecking amendment and would not have been allowed. But I am glad that it has been allowed and that noble Lords in all parts of the House have had the opportunity to put their points of view.
I do not want to repeat what has been said either by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to whom I am very grateful, or my noble friend the Minister, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon. I just want to underline the essential purpose of this Bill. It is a wholly permissive Bill. No one is obliged to do anything. If a group of councillors or members of a local authority wish to begin their proceedings with prayers—be they Christian or of any other faith—a moment of reflection, or a thought for the day as happens in the Scottish Parliament, and a majority shares that point of view, that is how the said meeting can begin. If a different point of view is taken, it does not happen. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton, that in the authorities on which they serve, prayers or a moment of silent reflection do not begin the day. However, heaving heard what my noble friend Lady Eaton said, clearly it would be a good thing if they did have a moment of silent reflection on her council. This is wholly permissive. It does not dictate anything to anyone.
I say to my noble friend Lord Avebury, for whom we all have great respect, that this is a gentle measure. It really is. He quoted at some length the aggrieved Muslim councillor on a Tory authority, although he named neither the councillor nor the authority. I do not criticise him for that and I do not doubt for a minute that every word of what he said was entirely true, but it certainly was not typical, as my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon made plain in his speech.
Housing: Brownfield Land
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord makes a valid point. The Government are undertaking to ensure that all surplus land that they own and falls under that designation is sold. Such initiatives are being taken to support housebuilding across the country.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, land is very finite in this country. Will my noble friend reinforce the comments that he made about the importance of the green belt and maintaining it? Daily, we read about threats to Constable country and other glorious parts of the United Kingdom. It is crucial that this Government do not go down in history as one who allowed the despoiling of some of the most beautiful parts of this country.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend again raises the issue of the green belt, which has remained a constant at 13% of land across England. I assure him that the Government are greatly committed to protecting our green and pleasant land.
Troubled Families Programme
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Baroness raises a very important point. Indeed, in raising that issue she has both great experience and has done an incredible amount of work in the area of women’s rehabilitation, particularly women offenders, and I pay tribute to that. She has raised an important point about the need to work together and to ensure that the women’s groups work at a local level. On a slightly different matter, before coming to the House, I met a women’s group dealing with domestic violence and identifying those issues. I talked about extending the programme to 400,000. One of the defining criteria now will be looking at domestic violence to ensure that those who are impacted are assessed and, most importantly, helped and brought back so they can be proud of their own contribution and the contributions of their families to society as a whole.
Lord Cormack (Con)
Is there not a chance that we would have fewer troubled families if there was a greater emphasis on citizenship education in our schools?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As ever, my noble friend raises an important and pertinent point. Of course, I agree totally, but citizenship alone cannot turn everything around. Unfortunately, we have identified families up and down the country who need such intervention in education, employment, health. Together with that, they will want to serve as proud citizens, and citizenship classes are important in that.
Localism Act 2011
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is correct—the community right to build was part of the Act and there has been a lot of community interest in it. Over the last two years, there have been more than 14,000 inquiries relating to the right to build. Eight applications for funding for community right to build orders have been made to the Homes and Communities Agency and the GLA. So far, two community groups have also submitted a total of four orders to their local planning authority for independent examination.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, if localism does mean empowerment of local people, what can be done to help the villages in the area around Nocton Fen in Lincoln, where there is a proposal to build 24 149.5-metre wind turbines, which would be twice as high as Lincoln Cathedral and would absolutely destroy one of the finest views in the county? Will the local people be assisted through the provisions of the Localism Act?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend has great knowledge of that area and brought this matter to our attention during our debate on the role of English parish councils. The Government are totally committed to ensuring that parish councils and our great cathedrals around the country are protected and the local environment is part of that. It is appropriate that local people are able to protect local heritage sites through local planning laws and the activism and power that we provided in the Localism Act. I hope that, as planning permission is granted or reviewed at a local level, local authorities will keep local heritage sites in mind.
Vocational Qualifications Reform Plan
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, there is a national shortage of engineers. What are we doing to encourage young people to take up engineering apprenticeships? There is not a national shortage of hairdressers, yet there are far more training opportunities than there are jobs available. In the field about which I know a little, the crafts, we are not doing enough to encourage crafts men and women to take on apprenticeships. We are not doing enough to show that there are richly fulfilling careers in the crafts. I hope that my noble friend will be able to flesh out the Statement a bit so that we can derive some more encouragement from it than I have been able to derive this afternoon.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend always speaks with great expertise on several areas. He has done so again in drawing attention to this issue. As he asked, I will pan out on this and reassure him. On the issue of engineering, he will recall that I mentioned Trailblazers in response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Young. The 29 additional industries and sectors we will look at include various elements of engineering, including civil engineering and rail. That will be led by organisations that include Jacobs Engineering, Atkins, CH2M Hill and Hyder Consulting. My noble friend also talked about crafts. That is another sector that will be covered by the second phase of the Trailblazer scheme. It will be led by organisations including the Victoria and Albert Museum, Cockpit Arts and the Mulberry Tree Woodturnery. I hope my noble friend is assured that, as I said earlier, across these 29 sectors 345 employers have now demonstrated their willingness to be part and parcel of this scheme.
Community Life
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The big society—and society as a whole—is alive, well and kicking. We need only look around the country to see 5,000 community organisers trained in 2015; Community First; the Centre for Social Action; the Dementia Friends campaign; the Innovation in Giving Fund; the Citizen Service; and indeed the Big Society Awards, with more than 100 winners already announced. The big society is very much alive. Look around your local community and you will see it.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, much as I appreciate and applaud the national citizenship scheme, is it not time for the Government to encourage all young people to undergo community service and to qualify for a citizenship ceremony before they enter the adult world?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend raises an interesting point. It is important to ensure that the opportunities that are available to young people are shown to them. If we look at the take-up of the National Citizen Service, when it was launched in 2011, there were 8,500 young people involved. In the current year, there are 90,000. Next year, it will go up to 120,000. The estimates are that by 2016, 150,000 young people will be part of the National Citizen Service. It shows that when a scheme works for the country and it works for young people, there is a take-up. This scheme reflects that.
Park Homes: County Court Judgments
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I have already observed that we have to strike a balance. The other side of the coin is that various options are open to people in pursuing county court judgments, which are decisions of civil courts. It remains primarily the responsibility of creditors to achieve a resolution. A range of measures is available, including warrants of execution, attachments of earnings, third-party debt owners and orders for sale, all of which can help in getting a resolution on outstanding issues relating to the obtainment of payment.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, will my noble friend try and ensure that all owners of park homes are given clear guidance on the extra protection that they will have when the Bill that is completing its stages through Parliament becomes an Act? Will he do his very best to ensure that these vulnerable people are aware of their new rights?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend is correct. The Bill to which I alluded, and with which the noble Lord, Lord Graham, was greatly involved, seeks to ensure that those with mobile park homes are made aware of their rights and that the obligations of site owners are made clear. My noble friend makes a valid point that I shall take back to the department about the effectiveness of communication across the board in ensuring that the tenants in these properties are made fully aware of their rights.