Parliament: Conventions

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. The fact that we are an unelected Chamber right now does not in any way diminish the important work that we exist to do. In revising and scrutinising legislation, we give the public confidence in the laws that Parliament makes.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for what she has said, but if we are to have continuing amicable relations with another place, for which we all hope, it is not very helpful if another place peremptorily kills off a Bill that has been fairly exhaustively debated in this place, as it did last Friday. It might well be that some us think we should flex our muscles on a Bill that came from the other place.

EU Council

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 23rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The report, to which the noble Lord refers, by the European Union Committee of this House was a comprehensive, serious piece of work. I was grateful to study it over the weekend; I thought that its publication was timely.

As for a debate on it, the usual process is for the Committee Office to respond to my noble friend the Chief Whip’s usual call out for what proposals it wants debated, so we would expect to hear in the first instance through the Committee Office, but my noble friend will of course want to liaise constructively.

The main thing about Europe, Ukraine and threats to others is that, yes, absolutely, we must be united; we must have a united force strength against Putin. Putin wants us to appear not to be united. We must present a united front. That is there. Via NATO, we are committed to protecting the Baltic states, should there be any attempt to threaten them in future.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to follow up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. I ask my noble friend, as Leader of this House, to ensure that we have a debate on the report and the wider situation. This is the gravest international situation that we have had in years. This Parliament will come to an end in four or five weeks’ time. It would be quite wrong—indeed, shameful—if this House, with all its expertise, did not have the opportunity for a full day’s debate. Will my noble friend absolutely guarantee that that will happen?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can absolutely guarantee that if the committee, having produced its report, proposes a debate on that report via the Committee Office in the normal way, we will find time for it. We will find time for debates on committee reports, because we are committed to doing that. I urge the noble Lord and other members of the committee to make their request via the Committee Office in the normal way.

House of Lords: Governance

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am sorry the noble Lord feels that I did not respond to the questions that were put to me during that debate, as I felt that I gave a very comprehensive response to the points that were raised. It is not that long ago since we considered the role of the Lord Speaker. As I have just said, we debated it, there was a Division and the House made clear its view on the matter.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, fundamental to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is the relationship between the two Houses. While it is crucial that we continue to recognise the constitutional supremacy of the other place, we do not have to recognise its geographical or territorial supremacy. Therefore, it is very important indeed that this House is equal with the other when we are talking about joint services.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right. To be absolutely clear, some joint services are already operating between this House and the other place. The joint procurement service is the most recent example of this—through that joint procurement service we have already achieved some significant savings and ensured that the service provided remains effective and operates well. However, my noble friend is right: when we look at other possibilities of services being shared, we have to ensure that we do not end up being in any way subordinate to the House of Commons.

Select Committee Reports: Government Responses

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The decision on when to hold a debate about a Select Committee report is taken very much as part of a discussion between the Whips’ Office and the Committee Office. Some Select Committees decide to hold their debates before they have had a response from the Government and some decide that they want to wait until after the Government have responded. There is no hard and fast rule on that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend, as Leader of this House, tell her Cabinet colleagues that we feel that many of them do not take this House seriously enough and do not pay enough attention to what this House says either in reports or on the Floor of the House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would like to think that, in the responses that I have already given to some of the questions today, I have demonstrated that the Government have taken the reports from Select Committees very seriously. There has been action as a result of them. So far as concerns my colleagues in government giving evidence to committees, last year alone nine Cabinet Ministers gave evidence to Select Committees of this House, including the Chancellor, the Home Secretary, the Justice Secretary, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Scotland Secretary, the Transport Secretary and the Environment Secretary. Tomorrow the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary together will give evidence to a Select Committee here. We take this House very seriously, and we are right to do so because the work of the Select Committees is excellent, as is demonstrated all the time.

House of Lords

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 6th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the pleasure and privilege have been ours in listening to the noble Lord this afternoon. He always brings a very special contribution to any debate in which he takes part. Following him is both a stimulating and a humbling experience. If ever there was a living refutation of the argument that there should be a retirement age, the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, is it. Having said that, I agree with him entirely that the speech of my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding, who officially retires today, and that of Lord Grenfell in July last year, were both extremely moving. They went out not when they were past their best but when in many ways they were at the height of their powers. If the noble Lord, Lord Walton, disappoints us in the coming year, he will be in that same category.

When I first realised that we were due to have this long debate today, I was slightly concerned not because I did not want to discuss your Lordships’ House, to which I am passionately devoted, but because I wondered how that would read outside on our first day back, and whether it would not be better to have a debate deploying some of the expertise to which the noble Lord has just referred, or one on foreign affairs. However, as I have listened to the debate, I have become progressively convinced that that was a misplaced fear. I thank and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, on introducing the debate and on the manner in which he did it. I am afraid that I could not agree with many things that he said, the most important of which concerned size. This has already been referred to very eloquently by my noble friend Lord Tugendhat. However, if we were to have a House of 400 full-time politicians, given that there is an underlying current that we need at least 400 Peers to do our job, this House would lose its character.

Like my noble friend Lord Tugendhat, I entered the House of Commons for the first time in 1970. I had 40 consecutive years there and saw that institution change markedly, and in many ways not for the better. One of the reasons that it was a much more impressive Assembly in the 1970s was because many Members on both sides of the House had wartime experience, ran businesses, or were considerable trade union leaders, and there were eminent lawyers on both sides of the House, such as Sir Arthur Irvine on the Labour Benches and Sir David Renton on the Conservative Benches. The other place has changed beyond recognition. Its change of hours has destroyed—I use that word deliberately—its collegiate atmosphere.

For all that the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, lamented some of the changes that have taken place here—I understand why he did so, and I am sorry that I am not a chemist—this place still has that collegiate atmosphere, which is perhaps best symbolised at the Long Table, where we sit side by side and talk as friends and colleagues and are not always conscious of political acerbity or conflict. Indeed, I am very rarely conscious of that. The Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, which I have the honour to chair, includes Members from all parties and the Cross Benches of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, is a distinguished member of the group. We work together and trust each other because we believe that this place makes a unique contribution to our constitution.

I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Williams, whom I often sit next to at the Long Table, as I think that 400 Peers is far too few. We have a daily attendance of around 400. We ought to bear three things in mind in this debate. One is that the absolute number is very much higher than the average daily attendance. Another is that when we are debating in this place and drawing on the expertise which it has in such rich abundance, we need to have a wider pool than the 400 Peers proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, would provide. We should bear in mind that the working size and the actual size are different. Another thing we must bear in mind, which has already been touched on by my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean in a very good speech, and by others, is that there is a difference between activity and attendance. My noble friend referred to the fact that some colleagues in this House attend and vote but do not do a great deal else. That has to be borne in mind when future appointments are made to this House, as has been touched on. It is important that this should be a participatory Chamber and that Peers should take part in the proceedings and seek to give of their best in our debates, deliberations and committees.

Like my noble friend Lord Tugendhat, I am not worried about how full the Chamber is at Question Time. That is not just because—I say this in the presence of two right reverend Prelates—I quite enjoy Prayers, based as they are on the Book of Common Prayer, and I am president of the Prayer Book Society. I attend because I like to be here and there is a crowd. But, of course, when Churchill and Attlee—my noble friend referred obliquely to this—were determining the size and style of the new Chamber to be rebuilt after the last war, they both deliberately said that they wanted to reflect the adversarial nature of the politics in the shape of the Chamber. They also wanted to keep it the same size so that when a debate was not too well attended, it did not look ridiculous and, when it was well attended, there was a sense of high drama and passion that was part of the political process. So I do not worry about the physical size of this Chamber. Whatever conclusion we reach, we have to be careful that the numbers here are able to do the jobs to which the noble Lord, Lord Walton, and others have referred.

I agree, however, that there are problems and that we have to face up to them. As far as the retirement age is concerned, I have to say that I am a bit schizophrenic on the subject—and even more so, having just had the honour to follow the noble Lord, Lord Walton. However, probably the solution put forward in the Labour Party document, which had much to commend it, was one to which we should give serious and careful thought. I am also taken by my noble friend Lord Jopling’s scheme of having a cap—and he knows that. There are precedents implicit in his proposal. When we had the Act of Union in 1707 and the Act of Union with Ireland in 1801 the Scottish and Irish peerages respectively elected a certain number among them to come to Westminster. There are more recent precedents, such as that relating to Ireland in the 1920s and again much more recently. We should have a target to which we work over a period.

My view accords closely with that of the noble Lord, Lord Gordon, in that I think that having this House about the same size as the House of Commons is probably about right. Thereby you would have the expertise, people would not have to be here every day and when they have particular issues on which they want to come to speak, they could do that. Also you would have people who felt that they must participate fairly regularly, and you cannot feel the place unless you are here fairly regularly. It is no good someone who is an eminent lawyer or physician swanning in once a year and making a speech if he does not understand the ambience. What, more than anything else, shone through the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Walton, was that he does understand this place; he loves it, has mastered it and has many friends within it.

Taking up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, we cannot eschew primary legislation, but there are things that we can do to address our procedures. For that reason, I would support setting up a committee to consider a prepared paper looking at all the options, including those of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and meeting over the next two or three months. The committee should not have an artificial deadline—artificial deadlines are bedevilling the solving of the problems of devolution, whereby, “This has to be done by St Andrews Day, by Burns Night or St David’s Day”. That is absolute hogwash. What we need is a committee that can begin work and continue it in the next Parliament. If some of the predictions are borne out, there will be a greater need after the election than there is now for the balance and stability that this House can provide. Yesterday was a nightmare—an absolute nightmare because it was party politics at its very worst. Here we have it at something approaching its very best. After the election, I would like to see a move towards a convention or royal commission—I have a slight preference for the latter but do not really mind—but we have to do this in a proper constitutional manner. Our constitution is the product of centuries of evolution and we must continue in that mould.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, for setting us off on this road. I am sorry that I cannot agree with all that he said, but he has stimulated an extremely good and powerful debate, to which the noble Lord, Lord Walton, made a magnificent contribution.

Implications of Devolution for England

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Lord knows, what we have done in this Parliament and through this Government is given greater power to local authorities in terms of control of their own finances. They are now in a much greater position than they were before to make the kind of steps that are about real change in their approach to providing services for local authorities.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, would not my noble friend accept that with three months left of this Parliament and a general election, with all the frenetic atmosphere that goes with it, this is no time to rush a constitutional settlement? The constitution is not the possession of any party: it is the responsibility of us all. I urge my noble friend, while I agree with my noble friend Lord Lang that it is good that there are options in this paper, not to attempt to rush pell-mell before the general election. In the calm—I trust—atmosphere that will follow, we have to try to reach a solution where we do not have two classes of Member of Parliament at the other end of the corridor.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, my noble friend was a Member of the other place and I was not, but there are already two classes of MPs in the other place. We have at the moment MPs for Scottish constituencies who are not able to vote on matters that affect their constituents, but they are able to vote on matters that affect people in England. We feel that this is a fundamental matter of fairness. It is not something that we are rushing into. This issue has been around for a long time. Five reports have been published on how to address this very important matter over the past 15 years. In the past few weeks, we have done some further thinking and put forward some options. I urge all noble Lords interested in this to come forward with their views—but this is something that it is now right to address.

Syria: Refugees

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is right to highlight these issues. We take this very seriously and approach it in the way that we think is the best way of approaching it; that is, that humanitarian aid in the region is the best way of doing it. We accept that for very vulnerable people in special circumstances we can provide help in this country, but we think that providing £700 million to the region is the most effective way of providing our humanitarian aid, which will help people in that area. It provides basic things such as water and food, which can help the largest numbers of people, and it complements the UN’s programme because we take the people into this country that it suggests to us and we provide money in the area to deal with the people directly on the ground.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is not this crisis continuing to destabilise the whole region? Is not the only long-term answer a proper political solution in Syria? Does that not mean that we have to talk sensibly and intelligently with the Assad regime, much as we might like to hold our noses while doing so? What has got to be smashed is the power of ISIS, and that cannot be done unless there has been an intelligent dialogue with the present Syrian regime.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with my noble friend that ending the war and defeating extremism will be the way to end the humanitarian crisis in the long term. That requires military pressure and a political settlement. However, we feel that that requires replacing the Assad regime with a Government who can represent all Syrians, in order to prevent further conflict. We are looking carefully at the UN envoy’s plan for local ceasefires to freeze the conflict. We support his work and we think that plan, together with direct help from aid on the ground, is the best way of achieving this.

Iraq

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hurd, in a very perceptive speech, contrasted today’s debate with the one that we had in August last year, when both he and I, and almost every other Member of your Lordships’ House, voiced grave concern at the prospect of going into Syria without a clearly defined objective or outcome. Today is very different. It is a sobering thought, incidentally, that had we decided differently last year, we might have boosted these wretched ISIL people into a position of even greater power in Syria.

We are now setting our hands to an extraordinary task. In the words of that great prayer by Sir Walter Raleigh, we have to see this thing “until it be throughly finished”. This is not a case of sending just a few sorties; we are in for the long haul. Although I risk the rebuke of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, we will need boots on the ground, be they Arab boots or other military boots—

[Lord Ramsbotham]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Cormack]

No, I cannot give way in this short debate. We will need boots on the ground—military boots and, as the noble Lord rightly pointed out, other boots.

Briefly, if we are to win the hearts and minds of people in the Middle East, those who are suffering desperate privation and those who will be bereaved or maimed as a result of air strikes—that is bound to happen—we must have great emphasis on humanitarian aid. I point up a little contrast. Yesterday, I stood on the East Green of Lincoln Cathedral, where there was a dedication of a plot that, next year, is to bring forth a wonderful garden of bulbs to commemorate Operation Manna. At the end of the Second World War, the people of Holland were in desperate plight. They were starving. Queen Wilhelmina said, “We shall merely be liberating corpses if something is not done”. Although we had to negotiate with the Germans—the war was still on—so that the low-flying aircraft were not shot down, the relief supplies were delivered and the people survived. Yesterday, in a very moving ceremony, we had the Netherlands ambassador paying tribute to the Germans in the presence of their military attaché, saying, “Even though then we were at war, those with whom we had nothing in common and who had inflicted terrible disaster upon us, at that particular point, held back”.

I make that comment and give that illustration merely to point up a moral and to adorn a tale. I hold no brief for the Assad regime—I do not think that there can be any Member of your Lordships’ House who does —but, without repeating the Arab proverb cited by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, all I would say is that we must have unrestrained conflict against these barbarians if we are to bring them to heel and we must ensure that, as the wasteland is liberated, we help those who seek to survive on it as much as we conceivably can.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The current calls for Russia to de-escalate and the sanctions that we are putting in place are in response to Russian activity in Ukraine, which predates last week’s incident. It would be wrong of the noble Lord to suggest that all our efforts being made now are only on the back of the terrible crime committed on Thursday. What happened on Thursday has focused minds, but it has not led to the start of our demands for Russia to take all the necessary steps to withdraw from its aggression in Ukraine.

As for what President Putin said in response to my right honourable friend, I do not have details of that. I can say to the noble Lord that clearly the conversation that the Prime Minister had with President Putin has had some influence. Thankfully and finally, we are starting to see some co-operation from the separatists in Ukraine to help ensure that the bodies there are treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve, that the right authorities are properly able to do their job, and that we can get to the bottom of just what happened.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, building upon the wise words of my noble friend a moment ago and on the extremely sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord West, does my noble friend accept that if we are not sensible we shall drift into another cold war from which no one will benefit? Could we not ask the Secretary-General of the United Nations to summon a special conference of all the parties to address the Ukrainian situation: to ensure the territorial integrity of Ukraine, a proper recognition of the legitimate interests of Russia, and an end to this drift—as I say—into a new cold war?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to raise the United Nations. I repeat what I have already said: the UK is playing a leading role to secure UN action. There is a meeting of the UN tonight. There is an Australian-led draft resolution, which the United Kingdom very much supports. Along with Australia, we have accelerated discussions on this, which welcomes a Ukrainian-led investigation, containing strong language on access to, and dignity in dealing with, the bodies and incorporating tougher UK language from the draft press statement.

Leader of the House: Cabinet Membership

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would emphasise to the noble Baroness and to all noble Lords that I shall sit around the same Cabinet table and participate fully in its discussions in exactly the same way as all my predecessors did. It will be a great privilege to do so. As to her question about the salary that the post attracts, I can assure the House that careful consideration is being given to the propriety of any arrangement.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, what is at stake here is not the status of my noble friend but the status of this House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can tell my noble friend that I believe that we have a duty to uphold the reputation of the House as a serious and distinguished institution that serves the public interest. That is what we will be judged on and that is what I intend to do. I hope that I have the support of all noble Lords in fulfilling that responsibility.