Ukraine

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 21st September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. She made some extremely perceptive comments, particularly at the end of her speech. I hope the Minister will be able to answer the questions that she put, because they are entirely relevant.

In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, talked about the first time we debated Ukraine, the very day after the brutal invasion began. Although we have not debated Ukraine as often as we should—that is no criticism of the Minister; I am grateful to her for what she has done to make today’s debate possible—whenever we have touched on the subject, one theme above all others has sounded through most speeches: Ukraine must not be allowed to go under. That point was made powerfully today by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, and others.

It was brought home to me this week by two experiences. First, there was an interesting programme on the television the other night by the brave and excellent journalist Katya Adler. She reported from Estonia, the tiniest of the Baltic states and the most vulnerable; from Finland, with its 800-plus-mile border with Russia; and from Norway, up in the far north near Murmansk. She interviewed local people, and what came over was how concerned and indeed fearful so many people were about what was going on, as well as the consciousness that those in Ukraine were fighting their cause. It is our cause too.

It was brought home to me further when I met yesterday a Bosnian friend. I was much involved in the debates on Bosnia in the other place in the early 1990s, and I met this friend then. He brought home to me in our conversation yesterday just how vulnerable the Balkan states are, Bosnia-Herzegovina in particular, with Republika Srpska, and with Russia influencing and agitating within Serbia. This really could become a European conflagration, and it truly is essential that we do not see Ukraine go under.

In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, made an important point: Putin underestimated President Zelensky and the Ukrainians, but—a point also made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup—we must not underestimate the malevolent power of Putin. That is crucial. We could be in this for a long time.

This is happening at a time of some real concern, as has been touched on by colleagues, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, who was himself an excellent Foreign Secretary and who understands these things better than most of us. As we look across the Atlantic, we must recognise that without the enormous generosity of our American friends, who have saved Europe twice in the last century or more, we would probably not be where we are now, gently cheering on a Ukrainian offensive. It could conceivably all have been over. We have to look at that—again, a number of colleagues have touched on this—in the context of what could happen in the United States in a little over a year. It would be a profound worry for NATO, to put it extremely mildly, if President Trump were re-elected. American participation in NATO could not be guaranteed and neither could the generosity of the United States, but it is vital that it should be.

I am very proud of what this country has done and is doing. I pay tribute to Ministers and others, and particularly to Ben Wallace, the recently departed Secretary of State for Defence, who has not been mentioned in this debate but who deserves a mention and hearty thanks for what he has done. Although I am proud of what we are doing, quite rightly filling the arsenals of Ukraine, I am troubled that we are leaving our own worryingly bare. That was a theme that ran through the debate on defence a couple of weeks ago. We have to recognise how crucially important it is that we are properly equipped. It was mentioned earlier that we have not had a smaller Army since the middle of the 18th century. The world has changed a bit since then.

We do not have the firepower that we really ought to have. I do not know whether colleagues noticed this, but I saw a report in the Times yesterday about one of our great aircraft carriers, which is almost bereft of aircraft. That is not terribly encouraging. It is very important—this point was made time and again in the defence debate—that we give the highest priority to what should be the highest priority of any Government: the defence of the realm. I know that my noble friend Lady Goldie is aware of how crucial this is, but there is genuine anxiety, particularly among those in the know. I happened to quite casually bump into a very senior general earlier today who told me how very disturbed he was. Although we are very proud of what we have done—we are very proud of having that recovery conference in June—we are facing, when this war finally comes to an end, the need for another Marshall Plan. Trillions will be involved in the rebuilding.

We have to remember too, that Ukraine has not only lost a lot of modern buildings; much of its heritage and patrimony has been destroyed. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester touched on this when he talked about the cathedral in Odessa. A nation is rooted in the history of its buildings—ours certainly is. Think of this country without Westminster Abbey or the building in which we meet. Both of them are so symbolic and mean so much to people throughout the country and indeed the world. Ukraine has lost a lot. Many of its libraries and museums have been looted. All these things will be on the agenda when we come to reconstruction.

It is all very well saying that we must make Russia pay, but how? Yes, we can sequester oligarchs’ assets, and we should, but we cannot physically make Putin sign a cheque. We have to be very conscious that the burden will fall upon the NATO nations—the United States in particular but our country too—to try to restore, through the generous sharing of expertise. We have many wonderful experts in historic buildings in Historic England, for instance, and they could help. But we have to do that and provide the money, or a lot of it, with our allies in order to do so.

There are some fine initiatives. I hope the House will forgive me if I say that I am particularly proud of one in which my elder son is involved. He has been responsible for creating the system of twinning Ukrainian, British and other universities. That has given enormous encouragement to Ukrainian rectors, vice-chancellors and so on, but it only scratches the surface. When, as we devoutly hope and pray, the bombs and drones stop and the devastation is truly assessed, there will be so much to do.

I come back to the point that we will be able to do this only if we ourselves are completely securely defended. So the bottom line is defence, and I make no apology for ending on a serious plea to my noble friend to do all she can to ensure that the Government recognise that we have to get to 3% and beyond very quickly, and to encourage our NATO allies to do likewise. This will be a long haul, but, at the end of the day, Ukraine, which is standing up for democratic values, is an ally that must not be allowed to face the prospect of defeat, which would lead to annihilation.