Ukraine

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 21st September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. She made some extremely perceptive comments, particularly at the end of her speech. I hope the Minister will be able to answer the questions that she put, because they are entirely relevant.

In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, talked about the first time we debated Ukraine, the very day after the brutal invasion began. Although we have not debated Ukraine as often as we should—that is no criticism of the Minister; I am grateful to her for what she has done to make today’s debate possible—whenever we have touched on the subject, one theme above all others has sounded through most speeches: Ukraine must not be allowed to go under. That point was made powerfully today by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, and others.

It was brought home to me this week by two experiences. First, there was an interesting programme on the television the other night by the brave and excellent journalist Katya Adler. She reported from Estonia, the tiniest of the Baltic states and the most vulnerable; from Finland, with its 800-plus-mile border with Russia; and from Norway, up in the far north near Murmansk. She interviewed local people, and what came over was how concerned and indeed fearful so many people were about what was going on, as well as the consciousness that those in Ukraine were fighting their cause. It is our cause too.

It was brought home to me further when I met yesterday a Bosnian friend. I was much involved in the debates on Bosnia in the other place in the early 1990s, and I met this friend then. He brought home to me in our conversation yesterday just how vulnerable the Balkan states are, Bosnia-Herzegovina in particular, with Republika Srpska, and with Russia influencing and agitating within Serbia. This really could become a European conflagration, and it truly is essential that we do not see Ukraine go under.

In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, made an important point: Putin underestimated President Zelensky and the Ukrainians, but—a point also made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup—we must not underestimate the malevolent power of Putin. That is crucial. We could be in this for a long time.

This is happening at a time of some real concern, as has been touched on by colleagues, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, who was himself an excellent Foreign Secretary and who understands these things better than most of us. As we look across the Atlantic, we must recognise that without the enormous generosity of our American friends, who have saved Europe twice in the last century or more, we would probably not be where we are now, gently cheering on a Ukrainian offensive. It could conceivably all have been over. We have to look at that—again, a number of colleagues have touched on this—in the context of what could happen in the United States in a little over a year. It would be a profound worry for NATO, to put it extremely mildly, if President Trump were re-elected. American participation in NATO could not be guaranteed and neither could the generosity of the United States, but it is vital that it should be.

I am very proud of what this country has done and is doing. I pay tribute to Ministers and others, and particularly to Ben Wallace, the recently departed Secretary of State for Defence, who has not been mentioned in this debate but who deserves a mention and hearty thanks for what he has done. Although I am proud of what we are doing, quite rightly filling the arsenals of Ukraine, I am troubled that we are leaving our own worryingly bare. That was a theme that ran through the debate on defence a couple of weeks ago. We have to recognise how crucially important it is that we are properly equipped. It was mentioned earlier that we have not had a smaller Army since the middle of the 18th century. The world has changed a bit since then.

We do not have the firepower that we really ought to have. I do not know whether colleagues noticed this, but I saw a report in the Times yesterday about one of our great aircraft carriers, which is almost bereft of aircraft. That is not terribly encouraging. It is very important—this point was made time and again in the defence debate—that we give the highest priority to what should be the highest priority of any Government: the defence of the realm. I know that my noble friend Lady Goldie is aware of how crucial this is, but there is genuine anxiety, particularly among those in the know. I happened to quite casually bump into a very senior general earlier today who told me how very disturbed he was. Although we are very proud of what we have done—we are very proud of having that recovery conference in June—we are facing, when this war finally comes to an end, the need for another Marshall Plan. Trillions will be involved in the rebuilding.

We have to remember too, that Ukraine has not only lost a lot of modern buildings; much of its heritage and patrimony has been destroyed. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester touched on this when he talked about the cathedral in Odessa. A nation is rooted in the history of its buildings—ours certainly is. Think of this country without Westminster Abbey or the building in which we meet. Both of them are so symbolic and mean so much to people throughout the country and indeed the world. Ukraine has lost a lot. Many of its libraries and museums have been looted. All these things will be on the agenda when we come to reconstruction.

It is all very well saying that we must make Russia pay, but how? Yes, we can sequester oligarchs’ assets, and we should, but we cannot physically make Putin sign a cheque. We have to be very conscious that the burden will fall upon the NATO nations—the United States in particular but our country too—to try to restore, through the generous sharing of expertise. We have many wonderful experts in historic buildings in Historic England, for instance, and they could help. But we have to do that and provide the money, or a lot of it, with our allies in order to do so.

There are some fine initiatives. I hope the House will forgive me if I say that I am particularly proud of one in which my elder son is involved. He has been responsible for creating the system of twinning Ukrainian, British and other universities. That has given enormous encouragement to Ukrainian rectors, vice-chancellors and so on, but it only scratches the surface. When, as we devoutly hope and pray, the bombs and drones stop and the devastation is truly assessed, there will be so much to do.

I come back to the point that we will be able to do this only if we ourselves are completely securely defended. So the bottom line is defence, and I make no apology for ending on a serious plea to my noble friend to do all she can to ensure that the Government recognise that we have to get to 3% and beyond very quickly, and to encourage our NATO allies to do likewise. This will be a long haul, but, at the end of the day, Ukraine, which is standing up for democratic values, is an ally that must not be allowed to face the prospect of defeat, which would lead to annihilation.

Defence Policy (International Relations and Defence Committee Report)

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 30th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is, as always, a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton. He did not say a word with which I would disagree, nor indeed did any of the preceding speakers. I begin by underlining the very powerful remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. It really is disgraceful that Parliament is debating this most important of issues on a Friday, and that we have had only two major debates on Ukraine. The Government, who have produced some pretty indifferent legislation for us to slave over, really ought to get their priorities right. We ought to have, before the House rises for the Summer Recess, a full, prime day devoted to foreign affairs in general, and Ukraine in particular.

I too pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Anelay, not only for her distinguished chairmanship of the committee but for the way in which she introduced the debate. We are all very much in her debt. She was so right to talk about two things which should have surfaced much more often recently. One is the absolute necessity for us to have close relations with our former European partners, the members of the European Union. I am not trying to rerun Brexit; I accepted the result with sadness and reluctance, but we are all in this together and it is vital that we work closely together. It is also worth, particularly bearing in mind the sinister influence of Iran, us devoting a little more attention to the Middle East.

If there is a subtext to this very comprehensive report, it is that our country is skating on very thin ice indeed, from the point of view of military resources and capacity to deal with the most comprehensive problems we have faced since the height of the Cold War. I well remember the Cuban missile crisis; I was a young Conservative candidate for a Labour seat at the time. We are in at least as dangerous a situation now as we were then.

I am somewhat perturbed by the letter which the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, the successor of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, felt obliged to write to the Secretary of State on 23 March following the Government’s partial response to this very comprehensive and important report. He said:

“We look forward to receiving a more detailed response on issues relating to the UK’s defence capabilities”.


He went on to say:

“In particular, we would be grateful for further information on how Defence plans to refresh its relationship with industry, replenish equipment, and build greater resilience in its weapons and ammunition stocks”.


There are a lot of unanswered questions in the Government’s response, and I very much hope that my noble friend will have some more information for us today. The House holds her in very affectionate regard and respect, but I hope she will be able to give us some glad tidings when she comes to wind up.

One thing that gives me concern is the size of the Armed Forces in general, but of the Army in particular. It really is extraordinary that there are almost as many civilian personnel employed by the Ministry of Defence as the 72,000 target for the Army. That cannot be right, particularly in view of some of the evidence given to the committee of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, on the less than agile competence of some of the defence procurement people. It is disturbing that on the very day that we are debating this report, we have in the Times an account of Sir Patrick Sanders, Chief of the General Staff, head of the Army, leaving early because he is unhappy with the way in which the Government are tackling things. That is a very disturbing commentary, at a time of such seriousness.

We enjoy the benefit of cross-party support for the Government’s approach to Ukraine, and indeed one of the characteristic marks throughout my 53 years in Parliament is that there has never been a real divide between the political parties on great issues of defence and foreign affairs. That does not mean that we should be complacent about that. On the contrary, we should together be putting pressure on the Government to recognise that the questions raised in this report are significant questions of far-reaching importance, and that we need some answers to the direct questions that have been asked and the specific recommendations that have been made.

I hope we will move forward through the reply we shall receive from the Front Bench today. I repeat what I said earlier, and what the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, said: I hope, above all, that before the House rises in four weeks’ time, there will be a whole day of prime parliamentary time to debate these far-reaching issues, which affect not only us but generations to come.

AUKUS Defence Partnership

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

On cost, the noble Lord will not be surprised that I am unable to give specific figures, for what I think are widely understood reasons. I imagine that differing levels of cost will apply because, for example, the role of the United States is based on it having an established Virginia class of submarine being built; as the noble Lord will be aware, part of the agreement is Australia seeking to buy three of those. There are now huge issues for Australia in creating the infrastructure that it will need to build the submarines, so, again, it is anticipated that its costs will be different from those of either the US or the UK.

For our own part, as is indicated, we in the UK have been investing in our submarine-building infrastructure. Some £2 billion was announced last year to support the Dreadnought class of submarines. The recent integrated review refresh announcement of £5 billion—obviously, I am rounding the figure up for ease of use—will be split into three, spread over two years, to sustain the nuclear enterprise. My understanding is that the additional £6 billion, which will be spread over three years—£2 billion per year—is also allocated to the nuclear enterprise, excluding the Dreadnought enterprise. That is money that we know is going to be there, and we are therefore able to budget appropriately.

It is important to go back to what the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have clearly indicated: that, having regard to the turbulent world in which we live, they see defence as a national primary responsibility and priority. They are prepared to work, even in difficult economic circumstances, to ensure that we do as much as we can to sustain a powerful and effective defence capability.

I turn to the last part of the noble Lord’s question, which was about this perhaps being a unique solution for Australia. Australia must make its own strategic decision about what it seeks and what it wants. Eighteen months ago, it identified that it had a need and that the best way to respond to that need was to seek a nuclear-propelled submarine. It is positive and gratifying that it then looked to the United Kingdom and the United States. As the noble Lord will be aware, we have a long-standing and close relationship on the construction of submarines. Australia has made a perfectly balanced decision that this type of submarine, propelled as it is by nuclear propulsion, offers huge advantages: it is far more effective in itself; it can circumnavigate the globe without coming up; it is difficult to detect; and it is much more efficient to run. For those who, naturally, care about the environment, it produces a cleaner form of emissions than, for example, a diesel-powered submarine.

Australia has looked at this closely and come to its own strategic, sovereign decision about what it wants. We should all feel very proud that it wants the UK to be part of this vital partnership in delivering what it seeks.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, should we not derive some comfort from the fact that the crucial meetings in the United States took place immediately after a very amicable meeting between the Prime Minister and President Macron? Is it not absolutely crucial that while we pursue AUKUS vigorously we do not neglect the fact that our European allies are extremely important, particularly bearing in mind what is going on at the moment?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I cannot disagree with one word of what my noble friend says. As I said earlier, the IRR indicated that the primary threat at the moment is Euro-Atlantic security because of Russia illegally invading Ukraine; that is our immediate defence priority in the short to medium term. However, that is without prejudice to our sustainment of the Indo-Pacific tilt.

My noble friend is quite right: our relationship with France on a bilateral basis is strong and good. Although I am not privy to the detail of what the Prime Minister spoke to President Macron about, I am sure that they discussed a huge range of issues, including how we can promote a free and open Indo-Pacific, in which France has a very important role to play.

Ukraine

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a very great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and that was a very wise speech. We should not be surprised, because he is the epitome of the experience and expertise which we often call in aid when we are defending your Lordships’ House. It came up earlier this afternoon because there was a question on Afghanistan, and he revealed that he was serving in Kabul in 1962. That says a lot.

I should also like to say how much I echo those who have paid deserved compliments to my noble friend Lord Soames. That was a magisterial speech and we look forward to many more. He is indeed a very worthy successor to his father. When I was a young Member of Parliament, I went out to be entertained at the embassy in Paris and was given the most wonderful, friendly welcome and the best lunch I had ever had. Then I had the great good fortune of serving for 10 years or so on the Winston Churchill Memorial Trust, where his mother was a towering figure and a very worthy leader of that trust.

This is, in a way, a strange debate because it was changed yesterday morning when we all received an email at around 9 am telling us that President Zelensky was going to address Parliament in Westminster Hall. What a speech it was. It was brave, defiant and—as the noble Lord, Lord McDonald made plain in his splendid speech—had a large begging bowl at the end, but we all responded enthusiastically because we were in the presence of a great patriot. He is a man written off by Putin, a comic who turned himself into a statesman and to whom we all owe an enormous amount because, under other leadership, Ukraine might well have ceased to exist as an independent country by now.

We owe President Zelensky a great deal because patriotism, as he was saying in his speech, is not enough: you have to have the ammunition. I am glad we have been able to give him a lot and hope we will be able to give him more, but I hope also that we will have regard to our obligations to our own country. My noble friend Lord Soames was absolutely right in his splendid speech to underline that point: greater recognition of the need for more defence expenditure.

We are facing a terrible task. Look at Ukraine as it was on 23 February last year and as it is today on 9 February this year. All around one sees destruction, desolation, a country that has been robbed of much of its history. The history of a nation is often symbolised in its great historic buildings, museums and galleries. Many have been pillaged and looted and their treasures taken to Russia. Many a historic church and monastery has been destroyed. We are going to need trillions of pounds or dollars to restore Ukraine but we must all be committed to that. Whether Russia pays reparations, as it certainly should, or whether that does not come about, we all have a duty to rebuild, so far as we can, a brave country that must have boundaries no smaller than they were on 24 February last year.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, said in his very interesting speech that the war will be won on the battlefield. It is rather interesting that we had a politician say that and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, saying rather the opposite: that it will end, as all wars do, with politics and negotiated settlement. That is right, although I entirely understand why the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, said what he did, because many have made the point that if Ukraine is defeated, we are all defeated; I have made it myself in past debates. The democratic cause would be defeated. That must not be allowed to happen, not just for us but for our children and grandchildren. They will inherit a difficult world whatever happens, but it will be made all the more barren and bleaker if democracy is on the run.

I will make one or two suggestions. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to the BBC World Service. I happened to be at the same meeting that he, the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and others were at last night with the BBC, specifically in the context of Persian language broadcasts. It made the point that it really did not have a budget on which it could rely. Soft power is very important. We have said time and again over this last year that we are not the enemies of the Russian people, and we certainly are not. One thing the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, was right to do was to point to Russia’s enormous losses in the Second World War of some 26 million people. They are a brave people and most of them are good people. We have to appeal to them and use every means that radio and modern communications give to us to get the message across: “You are not our enemies. We wish you to be our friends. You’ve never had the benefit of democracy; it’s something you really should have.” We have to get that message across day after day, hour after hour. It is essential.

The other thing we need is a diplomatic offensive. In his very fine speech, the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, talked about the numbers in the General Assembly. He is right that four or five voted with Russia, but others were equally right when they pointed to the fact that India and the South Africans have not taken the side of Ukraine. Two very important members of the Commonwealth of Nations, which used to be the British Commonwealth, have, in effect, sided with the dictator.

We need to have a real diplomatic offensive. We need to try to arrange that all ambassadors be entertained by the Foreign Secretary here in London and, even more important, a meeting to be attended by Members of both Houses of Parliament to underline the unity in this Chamber and in another place. When Sir Keir Starmer and the Prime Minister stood together yesterday, it was a real piece of symbolism. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to it. It indicated that, whatever we might fall out about—as we do and we will, whoever is sitting on this or that side of the House—there are certain things on which we cannot and will not be separated. It would be very useful to have a series of ambassadorial meetings with those countries that are either hostile or wavering to say, “We in this democracy are totally united on this.”

I also think that we and our allies, all the countries of NATO and the European Union, should summon the Russian ambassadors in the countries concerned to say, “We are united. Of course we are prepared to talk, but you’ve got to withdraw your forces from Ukraine before we do.” I do not suggest that this will be an overnight success, but it should be done as a concerted exercise: an increased use of both soft power and diplomatic channels.

There is another thing that we must do, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in his excellent speech. A friend said to me the other day that we must “destroy Wagner”—pronounced as the late composer, which I do not think is quite what he meant. The noble Lord spoke about that dreadful organisation spreading mayhem and indulging in rape and violence of every sort. It must be a proscribed organisation. If nothing else comes out of this debate, although I hope that much will, a pledge from the Front Bench that that will be acted upon would send us all into the Recess feeling a little better and with a spring in our step. Let us hope that when we come back and we mark 24 February, some advance has been made on at least one of these fronts.

Ukraine: Challenger 2 Tanks

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

We constantly review the assessed need through a combination of the Ukrainian armed forces telling us what they think they need and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, indicated, consultation among different countries. Part of this is, in a sense, about what we can achieve in aggregate through individual contributions. As the noble Viscount will be aware, other countries are donating tanks but the noble Baroness made the important point that the addition of Leopard tanks would be a significant step forward.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, do not the questions asked this afternoon, particularly those from the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, underline the need for a proper debate in your Lordships’ House on Ukraine? In a few weeks, we will mark the first anniversary of the opening of the invasion. We have a great deal of expertise in your Lordships’ House—far more than in the other place—so will my noble friend please talk to my noble friend the Chief Whip and make sure that, rather than considering some of the very unnecessary legislation being brought to this House, we have a full-scale debate on the most important international crisis since the Second World War?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Trying to answer questions on defence issues at the Dispatch Box is quite onerous enough for me to undertake without understanding the labyrinthine workings of the usual channels, but I am sure that my noble friend’s plea is heard by my very good friend the Chief Whip and that the usual channels will be interested in his observations.

Ukraine

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is an important question about an issue which I know occupies the thoughts of many. I reassure the House that the Ministry of Defence continually manages and analyses our stock of weapons and munitions against commitments and threats, while reviewing industrial capacity and supply chains both domestically and internationally. These considerations have informed both the numbers of munitions granted in kind to the armed forces of Ukraine and their avenues of supply. We remain fully engaged with industry allies and partners, and, as I said earlier, the MoD is utterly resolved to continue with this important support in kind.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, very sadly, it is highly likely that the barbaric—as my noble friend rightly said—treatment that has been meted out in Ukraine this week could lead to more refugees and more refuges for refugees. I am told—I hope this is wrong—that there is currently no Minister specifically answerable for refugee issues in either House, following the sad departure of my noble friend Lord Harrington. Can my noble friend clarify this?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

It is certainly somewhat outwith my ministerial responsibility. I understand that there is an overall responsibility falling on the Home Office, and I am sure that the Government will clarify specifically how they wish to address these issues. I am aware that very positive work has been going on already in relation to the Homes for Ukraine initiative in this country, which has been very successful, and we are very conscious of continuing to support it beyond the six-month period.

Afghanistan: British Special Forces

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not share my deep sense of unease that the BBC should choose to broadcast this programme before laying the evidence that it had before the appropriate authorities?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think we all understand that journalism has a role in a democratic society, and journalists have a job to do and documentary producers seek to discharge that role. What I think is reprehensible is—in discharging that role without producing substantive evidence or explaining why that evidence has never been investigated before—to proceed to traduce reputations and, as I say, tarnish an honourable military force of which we are extremely proud, the British Army, in which the overwhelming majority of soldiers are upstanding, competent and professional individuals who abide by the law.

Ukraine: Lethal Weapons

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

In so far as that impacts on our industry partners in the UK, yes, as I said earlier to the noble and gallant Lord sitting behind, we do make assessments and consult constantly with our industry partners. We are satisfied that we are balancing the need to support a friend in need with maintaining the necessary supplies for our own indigenous and domestic security.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is it not important that we do not lose sight of the fact, notwithstanding what the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton of Richmond, said, that Putin’s original aim six weeks ago was to accomplish annihilation? It is vital that the wonderful resilience that the Ukrainians have shown is supported in every possible way, because, if this were ultimately to end in the subjugation of Ukraine—which is possible—that would be a defeat for all freedom-lovers around the world.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend articulates a powerful sentiment; that is why there is such resolve on the part of the United Kingdom as a bilateral friend of Ukraine and in the global response—whether that is the response to calls for specific equipment and kit or the application of sanctions and financial restrictions. It indicates just how isolated Putin has become and how serious the consequences are for this ill-judged and disastrous expedition.

Ukraine Update

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can confirm the first part of the noble Lord’s question: yes, there will be a degree of training required. He will understand that, for reasons of operational discretion, I am not going to be more explicit about that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure my noble friend will agree that that symbolic afternoon on Tuesday was one of the most remarkable in the history of Parliament. Symbolism does have its places. Could I suggest that Parliament—both Houses—should nominate President Zelensky for the Nobel Peace Prize? Could I also suggest that it would be another symbolic gesture to underline our unity if the leader of the Opposition were invited to Cabinet meetings when Ukraine is on the agenda?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a number of interesting observations. I am sure that we are all conscious of the extraordinary attributes of President Zelensky, and everyone will be reflecting on how we best acknowledge that. As to matters of Cabinet protocol, my understanding is that the leader of the Opposition is, in fact, briefed on Privy Council terms. I think my noble friend Lord Coaker would confirm that the Government have been as explicit as they can with intelligence and information, and I am not aware of any dissatisfaction with that.

Ukraine

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 25th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, who speaks with great wisdom and insight—as did the noble Lord, Lord Sedwill, in a very remarkable maiden speech.

When I heard this chilling news yesterday morning in the first half of the “Today” programme, my mind went back to a day in the autumn of 1956, when my father woke me to say that the Russians were firing phosphorous shells into Budapest. That provoked me into joining a political party, in a democracy, to play a part. I duly came to the other place in 1970 and became chairman of the campaign for the release of Soviet Jewry. I was talking to one young man on the eve of his bar mitzvah as the KGB were knocking on the door.

Some 25 years later, in 1989, I took part in a communion service in the Hotel Oktiabrskaya in Moscow, in the shadow of the Kremlin, where they always used to put up the delegations from eastern Europe. I was able to present to Mr Gorbachev’s chef de cabinet, Andrei Grachev, a copy of the Bible, symbolic of a million that we were giving to a small group that had formed liaisons within the then Soviet Union. I could not help but reflect on those words of Wordsworth’s, written in a very different setting:

“Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive”—


even though I was perhaps not all that young.

Later that year, I was one of a group who chaired sessions in the Peace Palace of the Hague, composed of parliamentarians from the different constituent republics of the Soviet Union. We felt that a new era had dawned. It was something very remarkable, as it was when I took a group of Members of both Houses to Czechoslovakia, as it then was, in 1991. We met the great Mr Dubček. The world seemed to have changed. In a very remarkable speech, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, talked about his meetings with Mr Putin, at a time when it looked as though he might hold the torch for freedom—but we have now descended into the darkest days of the most desperate Tsars. Yesterday was a demonstration of that.

In this context, we cannot use hard power. We have not actually got very much to use. There is no point in rattling sabres if all you have are scabbards. However, we do have very real soft power, and it is an independent soft power, best exemplified perhaps by the BBC World Service. So I ask the Minister to give a guarantee today that no money will be spared to expand broadcasting services not only in Russia but throughout the former Soviet republics, many of which Mr Putin appears to have his eyes on. It is important that people know the truth, know what is happening, know exactly the measure of the dictator who is now behaving with such appalling savagery towards an innocent people.

It is also important that we take note of two points that were made during this very interesting debate. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, in his excellent speech, talked of how necessary it was that we who are in free Europe should work as one. Brexit is over, but we must forge a new, powerful relationship with the countries of the European Union—all the countries of Europe who believe in democracy and freedom. He was wise to say that. The noble Lords, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Dannatt, talked, also in the context of broadcasting, about making sure that those who live under threat, and those who live in Russia itself, know that democracy alone can prevail, and that dictatorship has no future other than misery.

It is good that we have had this debate. I very much hope that the united voice of your Lordships’ House will be conveyed.