Lord Cormack
Main Page: Lord Cormack (Conservative - Life peer)Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Lord Cormack Excerpts
Lord Cormack (Con)
I apologise for intervening and am grateful to the noble Baroness, but this Bill allows that to happen because a council can have a period of quiet reflection or prayers of any faith can be said—all choices are available. The word underlining all of them is “may”, with which she began her speech.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
As regards there being a party line on this side which is—
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, nothing in the Bill would prevent that. This is about choice at a local level. As we have already heard, there are provisions for local authorities to have prayers or not have them. We have heard from two Members on both sides of the House who are, today, members of local authorities, neither of which has prayers. If a coercive practice were already in place, surely those two Members who have spoken—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton—would have said that their local authority needed to have prayers. Neither has prayers, which again shows the openness of what is being suggested. Indeed, all we are asking for here—and the Government support the Bill—is the opportunity for people to be given a choice. I know that that is not something that my noble friend objects to.
Perhaps I may turn to the amendments. One of the key objectives of the Bill is to give authorities, including, crucially, those authorities that cannot exercise the general power of competence, the freedom to include in their formal business prayers or other religious observance or observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and other noble Lords that, for the purposes of the Bill, religion is not defined; rather, the Bill refers to,
“observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief”,
as other noble Lords have pointed out, and to “religious observance” as well. The definition is wide enough to embrace what might be described as mainstream religions but it also includes those with a sincerely held belief that is not conventional. Therefore, we consider that the Bill is inclusive. We have no desire—nor is it the intention of the Bill—to produce an exhaustive list of what is and is not to be considered a religion or, in this case, prayers.
On a lighter note, when I first joined your Lordships’ House, I came from the private sector. My right honourable friend Eric Pickles has been referred to. When I became a Government Whip, I was told that every Wednesday morning Eric held prayers. I thought, “This is novel. We’re going to turn up and have prayers with Eric”. However, it was a reflection of what we term “certain meetings”, and I think that those are reflections of our traditions. Perhaps the definition of prayer—which is very wide—is, as the noble Baroness suggested, one that allows local authorities to decide, if they so choose, to have a moment of reflection rather than a formal prayer service according to one religion or another.
We consider it right that authorities should have this freedom and right that they should be able to decide for themselves whether to include town hall prayers as part of official business. It is right because, as I have said, we live in a multifaith nation that respects all faiths and those who have none, and it is right because we should provide a local choice and, where a council wishes to hold town hall prayers as part of its official business, it should not be denied that freedom. I reassure noble Lords that the Bill does not compel town halls to adopt prayers. Nobody who does not wish to attend prayers as part of official business will be required to do so. Town halls may decide to have no prayers or to have a moment of reflection. That is part of the Bill, and the amendment seeks to remove that granting of freedom.
Amendment 2, coupled with Amendment 5, would introduce two new and, we believe, unnecessary restrictions, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out, on the decision-making process in town halls. It is unnecessary because there is no need to require a two-thirds majority to enable a local authority to hold town hall prayers. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay ably described, this would mean that a minority might vote against prayers but still stop the council holding them as part of its official business. Do we want a minority stopping a majority from taking part in an item of business that nobody is compelled to take part in? That is exactly what the Bill is intended to put a stop to.
Nor is it necessary for a decision to include town hall prayers as part of official business to remain valid for only 12 months. The Government have worked hard to reduce red tape in councils, to remove burdens and to make town hall decision-making more transparent and accountable. This amendment would introduce, into a Bill that is about freedom to choose, a compulsion to revisit, year after year, a decision that has been taken and agreed. Councils are, of course, free to decide one way or the other on whether to include town hall prayers as part of its official business, and they are also free to reconsider their decision, but they should not be compelled to do so every 12 months.
I was interested to see the amendment that seeks to replace the Bill’s—if I may describe it as such—non-definition of town hall prayers with a definition of an act of worship. As I have already said, the Bill is carefully drafted to avoid the definition of prayer, religion or belief. The provision as drafted ensures that town halls are not limited to any particular act of worship or observance. This amendment may be intended to ensure that, through silence, no offence is caused. However, that would go against the Bill’s intent to recognise all faiths, and respect those with none, by compelling those who would otherwise vocalise their observance to remain silent. I worry that the amendment also goes against the transparency and accountability that we have worked so hard to ensure become part of town hall culture. I am also concerned that it seeks to silence those who would wish to make clear their belief.
Another amendment seeks to limit the time that the council may spend on an item of business—in this case, town hall payers or an observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief—to five minutes. I find that somewhat peculiar. I presume it is to ensure that town hall prayers do not take up too much valuable time. I have already mentioned transparency and accountability. We have ensured that the public can report on the proceedings of town hall meetings and I would imagine that the only measure of time deemed to be unreasonable for any item of council business is the length of time that the electorate consider unreasonable, no matter what the business. As it is, local councils determine themselves, generally in guidance, how long should be spent on different agenda items.
In conclusion, we should trust local authorities and councillors to serve the interests of the public to whom they are accountable, without the need for any steer about how long they should take over this or that item of business. We should trust councils and the electorate. This Bill is all about choice—the choice of whether to allow or not to allow—and that choice is best made by those who are elected at a local level to serve their local electorate. With these assurances, I again reiterate the Government’s support of this Bill. After we have heard from my noble friend, I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for his robust and totally convincing defence of a Bill that I had the honour to present to your Lordships’ House a couple of weeks ago. I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this interesting and stimulating debate over the past hour. Second Reading came at a rather awkward time on a Friday two weeks ago. Most of your Lordships had been exhausted by the overseas aid Bill and, other than myself, there was only one Back-Bench speaker, namely the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I thanked him then and I thank him again now.
In effect, we have had a Second Reading debate over the last hour and I make no complaint about that. Amendment 1, moved by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, would remove the first part of the Bill and its whole underlying purpose. The noble Earl is rather fortunate that he is in your Lordships’ House and not in another place. I speak as one who, in another place, was a chairman of committees for 15 years and had to decide on amendments with the advice of clerks. In another place, Amendment 1 would have been considered a wrecking amendment and would not have been allowed. But I am glad that it has been allowed and that noble Lords in all parts of the House have had the opportunity to put their points of view.
I do not want to repeat what has been said either by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to whom I am very grateful, or my noble friend the Minister, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon. I just want to underline the essential purpose of this Bill. It is a wholly permissive Bill. No one is obliged to do anything. If a group of councillors or members of a local authority wish to begin their proceedings with prayers—be they Christian or of any other faith—a moment of reflection, or a thought for the day as happens in the Scottish Parliament, and a majority shares that point of view, that is how the said meeting can begin. If a different point of view is taken, it does not happen. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton, that in the authorities on which they serve, prayers or a moment of silent reflection do not begin the day. However, heaving heard what my noble friend Lady Eaton said, clearly it would be a good thing if they did have a moment of silent reflection on her council. This is wholly permissive. It does not dictate anything to anyone.
I say to my noble friend Lord Avebury, for whom we all have great respect, that this is a gentle measure. It really is. He quoted at some length the aggrieved Muslim councillor on a Tory authority, although he named neither the councillor nor the authority. I do not criticise him for that and I do not doubt for a minute that every word of what he said was entirely true, but it certainly was not typical, as my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon made plain in his speech.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for withdrawing his amendment in the previous group and for recognising that, at this stage in the Parliament, this Bill either goes on to the statute book as it is or it does not go on to it and that it is within your Lordships’ power to determine what happens to it. However, I hope that, in determining that, your Lordships will bear in mind that the Bill came to us from another place, having been piloted through the Commons by Jake Berry and without having caused Divisions in the other place.
As for these amendments, I just briefly reflect that I am fortunate enough to live in the great cathedral city of Lincoln. Even as I speak, people will be assembling in the cathedral—I would have been among them had we not been sitting today—for a special service of remembrance for those who gave their lives or suffered terrible injury in Afghanistan, very similar to the one that has just begun in St Paul’s Cathedral in the great city of London. We have many such services in Lincoln during the year, one of the most moving of which is always the service to commemorate Battle of Britain Day. In the Second World War, Lincolnshire was referred to as the airfield county, and countless young men flew from Lincolnshire airfields, either during the Battle of Britain or for Bomber Command, who never came back. Whenever we have these services, the local authorities—the city council, the county council and various district councils—are represented and roads are closed.
The clause that we are currently concerned with is about putting beyond doubt the freedom of any local authority—if it so chooses, to repeat the words I used when I responded to the earlier group of amendments—to ensure such events can take place. It can facilitate—not a word I particularly like—give its approval to, support and take part in them, but it does not have to do so. The important point of this Bill is that it places no obligation on anybody or any authority to do anything. It merely gives them the freedom. I am grateful to those who have supported the Bill.
Lord Cashman
I just want to make something absolutely clear for the Committee. The noble Lord, quite rightly, paid tribute to the acts of remembrance going on today in relation to Afghanistan. I would just place on record that such remembrances, principles and acts of commitment are not the sole domain of people with religious belief or people of faith—they are common to all of us. I know the noble Lord will agree with that but I did not want anyone to be in any doubt whatever about the sharing of common principles.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I do not think that anything I or any other noble Lord has said in this debate, or on any other occasion, has thrown that into doubt. Of course there are many brave atheists who have gone to their deaths in the service of their country. Countless Hindus fought in both world wars, as did many Muslims and, of course, many Christians—those of all faiths and of none. The Bill does not seek to suggest anything to the contrary. All it seeks to do is to put certain things beyond doubt and make it entirely clear that local authorities and other authorities covered by the Bill can, if they wish, hold prayers in their meetings—we have dealt with that—or support, attend or, to use that unfortunate word, facilitate such events. That is all it says.
I will of course write to my noble friend Lord Avebury, as he requested, and try to pick up any points that may not have been covered in the debate, but I ask the following of him, as a man who was once the most famous Liberal in our country—I remember the Orpington by-election, as will many others—who entered the other place with an extraordinary reputation, which he sustained, and who has made innumerable contributions from a liberal standpoint in your Lordships’ House. I merely look at him and ask him to exercise his liberal instincts today and to allow to others the freedoms that he has so skilfully enjoyed and legitimately exploited on many occasions over the years. Would he be kind enough to consider withdrawing his amendment?
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for the unexpected compliments and for the courteous way in which he has conducted these proceedings. However, as for the accusation that we are, in some way, trying to prevent people attending or participating in great events of the nation such as the remembrance of the victims of the First World War or of those who died in Afghanistan, I have to say that it is not worthy of the noble Lord to suggest that we are in any way trying to obstruct or frustrate the attendance of people from councils at those events. There is nothing whatever in the amendments that could have led to that conclusion.
I asked my noble friend whether Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already gave permission for the local authorities covered by the Bill to engage in those events. If that is so, then most of new Section 138B, which we are talking about currently, is not necessary. We always say that we discourage legislation that duplicates something that is already on the statute book. Constantly, when people try to make amendments to legislation, Governments tell them, “You should not do this, because Section so-and-so, which covers the eventuality, is already on the statute book”. I asked whether my noble friend could tell us whether Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already covers the events referred to in new Section 138B.
Lord Cormack
As I tried to say a few minutes ago, this Bill seeks to put matters beyond doubt. Until the Bone case—with which my noble friend is very familiar—came before the High Court, people thought that what had gone on for generations was entirely permissible. The High Court judgment said that Mr Bone had not been discriminated against and had not been unfairly treated. However, it also said that the Local Government Act in question did not allow prayers. The first part of the Bill dealt with that issue. We are seeking to put these matters beyond doubt, so that in future no Mr Bone can seek to take an authority to court if it closes a road on Remembrance Sunday or on any other day of the year such as today, when these services are taking place, not only in London and Lincoln but in other parts of the country too. It is merely to ensure that this is beyond doubt. It is a belt-and-braces approach. I know that my noble friend—and I am pleased to call him that—has over the years very often been anxious to put beyond doubt certain things in which he has firmly believed. That is all we are seeking to do.
Lord Avebury
With respect to my noble friend, I did not think it was beyond doubt. I thought Section 111(1) did cover it; nor has the Bideford judgment anything to do with the matters we are currently discussing, because the conclusion of the judge when summing up was:
“'The saying of prayers as part of the formal meeting of a council is not lawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972”.
But we have got beyond that now. We are not talking about prayers; we are talking about the attendance, support or facilitating of events of a religious nature by members of a local authority.
I do not know how many times I have to repeat this but no one who supports the Bill has the slightest objection to the national events that I was talking about earlier. We would not dream of trying to frustrate local authorities’ decisions to participate in those important national events. What we are talking about are the words “support or facilitate”, which do not occur in Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act. I am saying that it carries enormous dangers if you give people those powers. I refer to the case of the former mayor of Tower Hamlets and the machinations that he was engaged in in generating support from religious communities within Tower Hamlets. There is a serious point here that if we allow local authorities to support or facilitate events that are of a religious character, we are opening a Pandora’s box, which we may regret later on.
I sense that the House wants this discussion to come to an end. I conclude that because the Bill had the support of the other place and because it is not our position to frustrate the will of the other place, which we would do if we pressed this amendment to a Division, I beg leave to withdraw it.