Lord Cashman
Main Page: Lord Cashman (Labour - Life peer)Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Lord Cashman Excerpts
Lord Avebury
But these amendments have nothing to do with Remembrance Day services.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, I preface my remarks in support of the amendments by declaring an interest as a patron of the National Secular Society and the British Humanist Association. I know that I will probably be in a minority, but it will not surprise noble Lords to hear that it will not be for the first time in my life—and it certainly will not be the second. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for the Bill, the noble Earl for his amendments and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his contribution.
As is said at the end of “King Lear”, and as is good to bear in mind in debates such as this, one should,
“speak what we feel, not what we ought to say”.
As I have declared, I am an atheist. I absolutely respect religious belief and conviction, but I cannot agree with this Bill because I believe that many of the problems that we face in this country and in the world today are because religion and belief occupy to a larger and greater extent the public space, with a direct connection with politics. I believe that religion and belief are deeply personal and private. Indeed, within my own family, members of the same religion do not practise and believe in the same way.
This Bill seeks to bring a kind of unity of prayer, a unity of celebrating the divine. What about those who, through their religion, are excluded, because their religion is not addressed at the beginning of the proceedings? Does that bring unity? On the contrary, there is exclusion. When people in religious groups across the world feel excluded, they may rush into the arms of others, who will encourage them into believing that they are not excluded and that they should practise their faith to a greater and sometimes extreme extent. The Bill sends a very worrying message that there are those within and those without. Amendment 5 is an eminently sensible way in which to approach that, by agreeing to such proceedings with a two-thirds majority.
I shall not detain your Lordships’ House any further, but I have deep concerns about the intentions of the Bill and, subsequently, the unintended consequences that could occur, not only in council meetings within our cities and suburbs but within those other places, in committees and meetings, to which the Bill extends prayers. I speak wholly in support of the amendments.
Baroness Flather (CB)
My Lords, first, I want to draw attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said. There is a very crucial word—“may”. We should not forget that word, and I think that it is being forgotten today. They “may include”. I was a councillor for 15 years. As far as I can remember, the main prayers were said at council meetings, not at every meeting. This Bill seems to suggest that every possible meeting should have a prayer before it, including sub-committees. Everything is included, including sub-committees. So no—we did not do that.
I was Deputy Mayor and Mayor for the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, and in those two years I possibly attended more church services than most noble Lords, and I have read more lessons than maybe some noble Lords. People always said to me, “When you read the lesson, we like it”. Why was that? It was because I had not read it before, so I read it with feeling. I am an atheist. I do not have any problem; I will read lessons at a church service and attend a church service—I will do what is required of me, whether in a mosque, a church or a gurdwara. As an atheist, you respect other people’s faiths; you do not have one yourself, but that means that you are not fighting any faith.
Those who have faiths become more antagonistic to other faiths. This is the problem here. We are saying that we are not accommodating different faiths. I would never accept that prayers should be a part of council meetings—they cannot be part of them, because it is not council business. It does not concern the people being looked after in the area. They are not part of a council meeting. They are asking for a blessing on the work of the people who are trying to do their best. That is what it is all about—and, in a way, that is what it is all about here.
I wondered whether this issue could not be resolved by doing something different. Here, those of us who are not religious do not take the oath any longer—we affirm. Cannot we have an affirmation to honour this and that and try to do our best at the beginning of every meeting? That would be so much more in keeping with today.
Lord True
They do take place at the start of the meeting. Everybody in a free society can meet whenever they wish, if they wish to have a prayer meeting. I am talking about the opening of a meeting which is intended to conduct public service. It is a common affirmation of principles and it is a moment when we sit together collectively and silently. I personally find nothing offensive in that in any sense. People have an odd idea if they think that council meetings are crowded with people who might be offended by seeing people come in and out. People come in and out all the time, rather as they do during proceedings of your Lordships’ House. There is nothing conspicuous about that.
Of course, we are not elected for our religious beliefs, as the noble Earl said, but we are elected to share a common purpose. Prayers are one of the few moments when those of us who are in the Chamber can be guaranteed to share the principle and spirit of what is being said. I absolutely recoil—
Lord Cashman
Will the noble Lord clarify to the House that I am right in suggesting that he is not implying that those of us who do not involve ourselves in such religions are devoid of those common principles?
Lord Cashman
My Lords, I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and I will not repeat the evidence that he has put before the Committee. It has been argued by DCLG that, left unchallenged, the High Court ruling would prevent local councillors from, for instance, laying a wreath at a Remembrance Sunday event. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, even suggested that the Bill was necessary to allow councils to close roads so that people attending such ceremonies could do so safely. The High Court ruling simply clarified that local authorities have no power to hold prayers as part of their formal proceedings or to summon councillors to such a meeting and therefore Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act 1972 would apply. It states:
“Without prejudice to any powers exercisable apart from this section but subject to the provisions of this Act and any other enactment passed before or after this Act, a local authority shall have power to do any thing … which is calculated to facilitate, or is conducive or incidental to, the discharge of any of their functions”.
I therefore support the amendment.
Lord True
My Lords, we have heard from noble Lords who have spoken so far that they believe that it is perfectly lawful for what is proposed in the amendment to take place. On the other hand, we have heard that people would like to see the legal advice. I have not heard any objection to the activities that take place, which in general are supportive of the community life of all religious groups and, indeed, of those of no religious faith. If there is a shred of doubt in the law that these proceedings should be able to go ahead, given that there is support in principle even from those who have spoken from a different standpoint from mine, it would be highly sensible to make that clear beyond doubt in this statute. I hope, therefore, that the wording will remain in the Bill.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for withdrawing his amendment in the previous group and for recognising that, at this stage in the Parliament, this Bill either goes on to the statute book as it is or it does not go on to it and that it is within your Lordships’ power to determine what happens to it. However, I hope that, in determining that, your Lordships will bear in mind that the Bill came to us from another place, having been piloted through the Commons by Jake Berry and without having caused Divisions in the other place.
As for these amendments, I just briefly reflect that I am fortunate enough to live in the great cathedral city of Lincoln. Even as I speak, people will be assembling in the cathedral—I would have been among them had we not been sitting today—for a special service of remembrance for those who gave their lives or suffered terrible injury in Afghanistan, very similar to the one that has just begun in St Paul’s Cathedral in the great city of London. We have many such services in Lincoln during the year, one of the most moving of which is always the service to commemorate Battle of Britain Day. In the Second World War, Lincolnshire was referred to as the airfield county, and countless young men flew from Lincolnshire airfields, either during the Battle of Britain or for Bomber Command, who never came back. Whenever we have these services, the local authorities—the city council, the county council and various district councils—are represented and roads are closed.
The clause that we are currently concerned with is about putting beyond doubt the freedom of any local authority—if it so chooses, to repeat the words I used when I responded to the earlier group of amendments—to ensure such events can take place. It can facilitate—not a word I particularly like—give its approval to, support and take part in them, but it does not have to do so. The important point of this Bill is that it places no obligation on anybody or any authority to do anything. It merely gives them the freedom. I am grateful to those who have supported the Bill.
Lord Cashman
I just want to make something absolutely clear for the Committee. The noble Lord, quite rightly, paid tribute to the acts of remembrance going on today in relation to Afghanistan. I would just place on record that such remembrances, principles and acts of commitment are not the sole domain of people with religious belief or people of faith—they are common to all of us. I know the noble Lord will agree with that but I did not want anyone to be in any doubt whatever about the sharing of common principles.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I do not think that anything I or any other noble Lord has said in this debate, or on any other occasion, has thrown that into doubt. Of course there are many brave atheists who have gone to their deaths in the service of their country. Countless Hindus fought in both world wars, as did many Muslims and, of course, many Christians—those of all faiths and of none. The Bill does not seek to suggest anything to the contrary. All it seeks to do is to put certain things beyond doubt and make it entirely clear that local authorities and other authorities covered by the Bill can, if they wish, hold prayers in their meetings—we have dealt with that—or support, attend or, to use that unfortunate word, facilitate such events. That is all it says.
I will of course write to my noble friend Lord Avebury, as he requested, and try to pick up any points that may not have been covered in the debate, but I ask the following of him, as a man who was once the most famous Liberal in our country—I remember the Orpington by-election, as will many others—who entered the other place with an extraordinary reputation, which he sustained, and who has made innumerable contributions from a liberal standpoint in your Lordships’ House. I merely look at him and ask him to exercise his liberal instincts today and to allow to others the freedoms that he has so skilfully enjoyed and legitimately exploited on many occasions over the years. Would he be kind enough to consider withdrawing his amendment?