Lord Avebury
Main Page: Lord Avebury (Liberal Democrat - Excepted Hereditary)Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Lord Avebury Excerpts
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
I should remind your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 2 to 5 by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the Minister for the meeting we had with them to discuss the Bill and our amendments earlier in the week, even though it was apparent that there was a fundamental difference of opinion between us about the relationship between religion and the affairs of secular authorities. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, has done your Lordships an important service in enabling us to underline these differences, which may not be reflected so clearly among us as they are in the country at large.
As the Bill’s supporters observe at every opportunity, this Bill is permissive, but that does not justify it. It enables the majority of the persons on a passenger transport executive, for example, to hold prayers during their meetings and to support or facilitate, presumably with public money, a religious event. If they exercise these powers, they are in no way contributing to the comfort, welfare or any other benefit of their passengers, but on the contrary they are subtracting from the time available for considering how to improve the services they provide for the public.
The argument that these matters should be for the majority to decide is not acceptable. It is no triumph for democracy if the local authorities and other bodies covered by this Bill are given power to impose something which is bound to divide members from one another according to their religion or belief. It would mark out those who do not participate in the observance as not being full members of the body concerned, a body which in most cases would be subject to the public sector equality duty.
That duty, imposed by the Equality Act, means that any authority considering the use of these powers would have to consider whether they are compatible with the public sector equality duty, a matter to which I take it the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has given some thought. When he comes to reply, he can perhaps explain why he thinks the powers are indeed compatible with the public sector equality duty when, instead of enhancing religious freedom, the Bill imposes the procedures of a religious majority on those who have been elected to do a secular job.
Therefore, I support Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, which omits proposed new Section 138A, which deals with prayers. If my noble friend Lord Cormack is not prepared to accept that proposal, I ask him at least to accept Amendments 2 and 4, which require a two-thirds majority for prayers.
No satisfactory answer has been given by the Bill’s supporters as to why those who wish to pray cannot do so informally before or after a meeting of the council or other body in their own time. Those who oppose council prayers are accused of intolerance. However, the advocates of prayers always refuse to acknowledge that no objection has been raised by us to prayer before council meetings, as indeed the National Secular Society suggested at the High Court hearing on the Bideford case.
As the Bill stands, those not wishing to participate in prayers have either to put up with them or draw attention to themselves by leaving the chamber in front of the public and then returning, probably without the chair making their nonconformity less obvious by suspending the proceedings. Both options are gratuitously unwelcoming, discourteous and divisive.
The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, perhaps I should declare an interest, having just led the Prayers in this Chamber.
What concerns me about the opening remarks from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, is the assumption that in a multireligious and secular society it is in the interests of all the religions to evacuate the public space of any religion. That is not my experience in Leicester at all, which is one of the most multireligious cities in this country. A few years ago, a Lord Mayor of Leicester decided, having the powers so to do, to discontinue prayers in the council chamber before meetings of the council and, at the end of his mayoral year, leaders of the other faith communities pressed hard that prayers should be reinstated in the chamber. It has been our experience continually that the argument for prayer in public comes from the leadership of the many faiths in Leicester. That has also been the case in the remembrance observances, which have grown during my time as bishop from about 1,000 people—in Victoria Park on Remembrance Day—to somewhere between 4,000 and 5,000, where Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Hindus, Christians, Baha’is, and Buddhists stand and remember together in public those who have fallen in war.
The point was made in the opening remarks about the connections between the global and the local. Those are profound connections, particularly in our great cities. The solidarity of people standing together in respect for the divine is a very significant part of how we preserve cohesion in our society.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, I preface my remarks in support of the amendments by declaring an interest as a patron of the National Secular Society and the British Humanist Association. I know that I will probably be in a minority, but it will not surprise noble Lords to hear that it will not be for the first time in my life—and it certainly will not be the second. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for the Bill, the noble Earl for his amendments and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his contribution.
As is said at the end of “King Lear”, and as is good to bear in mind in debates such as this, one should,
“speak what we feel, not what we ought to say”.
As I have declared, I am an atheist. I absolutely respect religious belief and conviction, but I cannot agree with this Bill because I believe that many of the problems that we face in this country and in the world today are because religion and belief occupy to a larger and greater extent the public space, with a direct connection with politics. I believe that religion and belief are deeply personal and private. Indeed, within my own family, members of the same religion do not practise and believe in the same way.
This Bill seeks to bring a kind of unity of prayer, a unity of celebrating the divine. What about those who, through their religion, are excluded, because their religion is not addressed at the beginning of the proceedings? Does that bring unity? On the contrary, there is exclusion. When people in religious groups across the world feel excluded, they may rush into the arms of others, who will encourage them into believing that they are not excluded and that they should practise their faith to a greater and sometimes extreme extent. The Bill sends a very worrying message that there are those within and those without. Amendment 5 is an eminently sensible way in which to approach that, by agreeing to such proceedings with a two-thirds majority.
I shall not detain your Lordships’ House any further, but I have deep concerns about the intentions of the Bill and, subsequently, the unintended consequences that could occur, not only in council meetings within our cities and suburbs but within those other places, in committees and meetings, to which the Bill extends prayers. I speak wholly in support of the amendments.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I intervene as a leader of a local authority. I declare an interest as leader of the London Borough of Richmond, where our council meetings—but no others—start with a period of prayer. It is not spoken prayer but is currently admirably led by the mayor’s chaplain, Jeff Hopkin Williams. The prayers do not need to be led by a Christian pastor. In the 30 years I have been on the council, we have had prayers led by people of all faiths and, indeed, by people from the Humanist Association. I respect the views of noble Lords who have spoken about the National Secular Society, but I feel that that society is straining at a gnat and is seeing some tiger or dinosaur stalking the land. What we are actually talking about here is people coming together—I say this to the noble Earl—to conduct public business, sitting down commonly at the start of that business, as we do in your Lordships’ House, and hearing an affirmation from a person leading the prayers with regard to the common purpose of the council. I think back to the prayers that were spoken at our last meeting in which we were asked to respect each other, approach business in a creative fashion, remember that we were in public service and dedicated in the principles of public service. I find nothing exceptionable in that.
Lord Avebury
Is there any reason whatever why those matters should not be dealt with outside the ambit of the official council meeting? Why could they not be covered in a five-minute period before the council meeting starts?
Lord True
They do take place at the start of the meeting. Everybody in a free society can meet whenever they wish, if they wish to have a prayer meeting. I am talking about the opening of a meeting which is intended to conduct public service. It is a common affirmation of principles and it is a moment when we sit together collectively and silently. I personally find nothing offensive in that in any sense. People have an odd idea if they think that council meetings are crowded with people who might be offended by seeing people come in and out. People come in and out all the time, rather as they do during proceedings of your Lordships’ House. There is nothing conspicuous about that.
Of course, we are not elected for our religious beliefs, as the noble Earl said, but we are elected to share a common purpose. Prayers are one of the few moments when those of us who are in the Chamber can be guaranteed to share the principle and spirit of what is being said. I absolutely recoil—
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but I would like an answer to the question that I posed to another noble Lord. Why cannot people who believe so strongly that prayers before a meeting can be helpful to them in their deliberations organise themselves separately so that they are not part of the official business but are organised by a voluntary group of councillors who, in this respect, would have nothing to do with the official business of the authority?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, nothing in the Bill would prevent that. This is about choice at a local level. As we have already heard, there are provisions for local authorities to have prayers or not have them. We have heard from two Members on both sides of the House who are, today, members of local authorities, neither of which has prayers. If a coercive practice were already in place, surely those two Members who have spoken—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton—would have said that their local authority needed to have prayers. Neither has prayers, which again shows the openness of what is being suggested. Indeed, all we are asking for here—and the Government support the Bill—is the opportunity for people to be given a choice. I know that that is not something that my noble friend objects to.
Perhaps I may turn to the amendments. One of the key objectives of the Bill is to give authorities, including, crucially, those authorities that cannot exercise the general power of competence, the freedom to include in their formal business prayers or other religious observance or observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and other noble Lords that, for the purposes of the Bill, religion is not defined; rather, the Bill refers to,
“observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief”,
as other noble Lords have pointed out, and to “religious observance” as well. The definition is wide enough to embrace what might be described as mainstream religions but it also includes those with a sincerely held belief that is not conventional. Therefore, we consider that the Bill is inclusive. We have no desire—nor is it the intention of the Bill—to produce an exhaustive list of what is and is not to be considered a religion or, in this case, prayers.
On a lighter note, when I first joined your Lordships’ House, I came from the private sector. My right honourable friend Eric Pickles has been referred to. When I became a Government Whip, I was told that every Wednesday morning Eric held prayers. I thought, “This is novel. We’re going to turn up and have prayers with Eric”. However, it was a reflection of what we term “certain meetings”, and I think that those are reflections of our traditions. Perhaps the definition of prayer—which is very wide—is, as the noble Baroness suggested, one that allows local authorities to decide, if they so choose, to have a moment of reflection rather than a formal prayer service according to one religion or another.
We consider it right that authorities should have this freedom and right that they should be able to decide for themselves whether to include town hall prayers as part of official business. It is right because, as I have said, we live in a multifaith nation that respects all faiths and those who have none, and it is right because we should provide a local choice and, where a council wishes to hold town hall prayers as part of its official business, it should not be denied that freedom. I reassure noble Lords that the Bill does not compel town halls to adopt prayers. Nobody who does not wish to attend prayers as part of official business will be required to do so. Town halls may decide to have no prayers or to have a moment of reflection. That is part of the Bill, and the amendment seeks to remove that granting of freedom.
Amendment 2, coupled with Amendment 5, would introduce two new and, we believe, unnecessary restrictions, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out, on the decision-making process in town halls. It is unnecessary because there is no need to require a two-thirds majority to enable a local authority to hold town hall prayers. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay ably described, this would mean that a minority might vote against prayers but still stop the council holding them as part of its official business. Do we want a minority stopping a majority from taking part in an item of business that nobody is compelled to take part in? That is exactly what the Bill is intended to put a stop to.
Nor is it necessary for a decision to include town hall prayers as part of official business to remain valid for only 12 months. The Government have worked hard to reduce red tape in councils, to remove burdens and to make town hall decision-making more transparent and accountable. This amendment would introduce, into a Bill that is about freedom to choose, a compulsion to revisit, year after year, a decision that has been taken and agreed. Councils are, of course, free to decide one way or the other on whether to include town hall prayers as part of its official business, and they are also free to reconsider their decision, but they should not be compelled to do so every 12 months.
I was interested to see the amendment that seeks to replace the Bill’s—if I may describe it as such—non-definition of town hall prayers with a definition of an act of worship. As I have already said, the Bill is carefully drafted to avoid the definition of prayer, religion or belief. The provision as drafted ensures that town halls are not limited to any particular act of worship or observance. This amendment may be intended to ensure that, through silence, no offence is caused. However, that would go against the Bill’s intent to recognise all faiths, and respect those with none, by compelling those who would otherwise vocalise their observance to remain silent. I worry that the amendment also goes against the transparency and accountability that we have worked so hard to ensure become part of town hall culture. I am also concerned that it seeks to silence those who would wish to make clear their belief.
Another amendment seeks to limit the time that the council may spend on an item of business—in this case, town hall payers or an observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief—to five minutes. I find that somewhat peculiar. I presume it is to ensure that town hall prayers do not take up too much valuable time. I have already mentioned transparency and accountability. We have ensured that the public can report on the proceedings of town hall meetings and I would imagine that the only measure of time deemed to be unreasonable for any item of council business is the length of time that the electorate consider unreasonable, no matter what the business. As it is, local councils determine themselves, generally in guidance, how long should be spent on different agenda items.
In conclusion, we should trust local authorities and councillors to serve the interests of the public to whom they are accountable, without the need for any steer about how long they should take over this or that item of business. We should trust councils and the electorate. This Bill is all about choice—the choice of whether to allow or not to allow—and that choice is best made by those who are elected at a local level to serve their local electorate. With these assurances, I again reiterate the Government’s support of this Bill. After we have heard from my noble friend, I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Avebury
Lord Avebury
My Lords, Amendment 6 would leave out new Section 138B which the Bill proposes to insert into the Local Government Act 1972.
Except for the words “support or facilitate, or”, which Amendment 8 proposes should be left out, this new section duplicates the provisions of Section 111(1) of the Local Government At 1972, which reads, in part, that,
“a local authority shall have the power to do any thing (whether or not involving the expenditure, borrowing or lending of money or the acquisition or disposal of any property or rights) which is calculated to facilitate, or is conducive or incidental to, the discharge of any of their functions”.
No doubt my noble friend can say to the Committee whether the Government disagree with Eric Pickles, who was quoted by the New Statesman as claiming that under the Localism Act, which came into force in February 2012, after the Bideford ruling, councils have a general power of competence. He said:
“Logically this includes ability to pray before meetings”.
I would be grateful for an answer to that question and to the others that I posed to my noble friend during the first discussion. I did not expect him to have all the answers available off the cuff today, but it would be useful if he could write to me at some point after the conclusion of these proceedings.
There is enough legislation generated in this place already without legislating to empower local authorities to do what they are already able to do. We understand, however, that my noble friend believes that the High Court judgment in the Bideford case could mean that no event that has any religious element in it is permissible and would therefore be open to challenge. In fact the judgment was limited specifically to the saying of prayers as part of the formal meeting of a council and did not extend to any other part of its activities. Here again, assuming that my noble friend has taken advice, could he place a copy of counsel’s opinion in the Library of the House?
In the Bideford case, the judge analysed the provisions of Section 111 very thoroughly, saying that the council did not require members to attend prayers uniquely among all other matters on the agenda of their meetings. If it was necessary to grant this dispensation, prayers could not be regarded as conducive to the transaction of business or to the exercise of any functions. At paragraph 25 the judgment reads:
“There is a contradiction at the heart of the Council’s position. It has made the prayers part of the formal business of the Council, yet it says that Councillors, summoned to its meetings, are not obliged to be present for this incident to the transaction of business nor to participate in it. I do not think that what falls within the scope of s111, as an incident to the transaction of the business of the meeting, can then be regarded as such that attendance for it is unnecessary or optional, in distinction from all other business. In effect it is treated as being outside the scope of the meeting”.
This is the key to the sensible solution of a dispute that we are having with my noble friend. If prayers were not part of the formal meeting, but were held separately under voluntary arrangements, there could be no possible objection to them. Every faith group represented on the council is fully entitled to hold prayers or other religious observances as a group if it considers it appropriate. It is wholly unjust for those on my noble friend’s side of the argument to say that we are trying to restrict religious freedom.
The ruling could not, by the greatest stretch of the imagination, apply to events outside the council chamber and that applies not only to private meetings for prayer but to voluntary attendance at remembrance or other religious services, which are not remotely controversial. They occur all over the country without any problem or challenge. To put it another way, new Section 138B, which Amendment 6 proposes to leave out, is based almost entirely on an implausible hypothesis.
That leaves only Amendments 7 and 8 in this group to be mentioned. Amendment 7 would prevent the authorities covered by the Bill from supporting, and Amendment 8 would prevent them from supporting or facilitating, religious events. Local government is funded by a society that is, however much the promoter of the Bill may regret it, increasingly religiously diverse and non-religious. Indeed, in many localities, the non-religious may themselves already be in a majority. Each authority’s purpose is, or should be, to serve all equally, regardless of religion and belief, and its functions are not of a religious nature.
The authority’s funds, which come from the council tax and national taxation of people of all faiths and no faith, should therefore not be expended to support or facilitate events, or elements thereof, which are of a religious or belief nature. Consider how the corrupt former mayor of Tower Hamlets, condemned by Mr Pickles as a “medieval monarch” who had “misused” his “unchecked” personal power to favour ethnic and political allies, might have relished the use of these powers. They would not only have caused people to pay for events to which many were opposed, but they could be used by unscrupulous politicians to buy the loyalty of particular religious groups or to favour the groups to which they belonged. It would be helpful to know whether my noble friend believes that the law already allows local authorities to “support” or “facilitate”, as in this Bill, under the Local Government Act or otherwise. If it does, there is no need for it to be part of this Bill. If not, it represents mission creep—literally in this case—which has not been acknowledged. Either way, I am unhappy that the power is there and I hope that noble Lords will agree with me.
Please note that these amendments do not leave out “make arrangements to be represented at”, although, on reflection, perhaps we should have sought to leave out words that are obviously covered already because the Local Government Act allows for such representation at other events. The rest of the amendments in this group are consequential. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
My Lords, I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendments 7 or 8 for reasons of pre-emption.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for the unexpected compliments and for the courteous way in which he has conducted these proceedings. However, as for the accusation that we are, in some way, trying to prevent people attending or participating in great events of the nation such as the remembrance of the victims of the First World War or of those who died in Afghanistan, I have to say that it is not worthy of the noble Lord to suggest that we are in any way trying to obstruct or frustrate the attendance of people from councils at those events. There is nothing whatever in the amendments that could have led to that conclusion.
I asked my noble friend whether Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already gave permission for the local authorities covered by the Bill to engage in those events. If that is so, then most of new Section 138B, which we are talking about currently, is not necessary. We always say that we discourage legislation that duplicates something that is already on the statute book. Constantly, when people try to make amendments to legislation, Governments tell them, “You should not do this, because Section so-and-so, which covers the eventuality, is already on the statute book”. I asked whether my noble friend could tell us whether Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already covers the events referred to in new Section 138B.
Lord Cormack
As I tried to say a few minutes ago, this Bill seeks to put matters beyond doubt. Until the Bone case—with which my noble friend is very familiar—came before the High Court, people thought that what had gone on for generations was entirely permissible. The High Court judgment said that Mr Bone had not been discriminated against and had not been unfairly treated. However, it also said that the Local Government Act in question did not allow prayers. The first part of the Bill dealt with that issue. We are seeking to put these matters beyond doubt, so that in future no Mr Bone can seek to take an authority to court if it closes a road on Remembrance Sunday or on any other day of the year such as today, when these services are taking place, not only in London and Lincoln but in other parts of the country too. It is merely to ensure that this is beyond doubt. It is a belt-and-braces approach. I know that my noble friend—and I am pleased to call him that—has over the years very often been anxious to put beyond doubt certain things in which he has firmly believed. That is all we are seeking to do.
Lord Avebury
With respect to my noble friend, I did not think it was beyond doubt. I thought Section 111(1) did cover it; nor has the Bideford judgment anything to do with the matters we are currently discussing, because the conclusion of the judge when summing up was:
“'The saying of prayers as part of the formal meeting of a council is not lawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972”.
But we have got beyond that now. We are not talking about prayers; we are talking about the attendance, support or facilitating of events of a religious nature by members of a local authority.
I do not know how many times I have to repeat this but no one who supports the Bill has the slightest objection to the national events that I was talking about earlier. We would not dream of trying to frustrate local authorities’ decisions to participate in those important national events. What we are talking about are the words “support or facilitate”, which do not occur in Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act. I am saying that it carries enormous dangers if you give people those powers. I refer to the case of the former mayor of Tower Hamlets and the machinations that he was engaged in in generating support from religious communities within Tower Hamlets. There is a serious point here that if we allow local authorities to support or facilitate events that are of a religious character, we are opening a Pandora’s box, which we may regret later on.
I sense that the House wants this discussion to come to an end. I conclude that because the Bill had the support of the other place and because it is not our position to frustrate the will of the other place, which we would do if we pressed this amendment to a Division, I beg leave to withdraw it.