Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 7th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

My Lords, I will stick to the amendment. I told the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, a few days ago that I would not support it for all the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, mentioned, and the reasons raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. This is a decision by patients—let us come back to them—it is not a decision by doctors. Any judicial intervention placed between the patient and the processes by which they could be helped in what they want is likely to be difficult. Remember also that patients every day make decisions to end their lives. They make a decision not to have that last chemotherapy offered to them. They have had perhaps a year of it and they do not want any more. That wish is respected, their capacity is rarely mentioned and they make that decision.

However, I have thought a great deal over the past few days and looked again at the Second Reading debate. The anxiety raised was sufficient to suggest that perhaps we need to put in a process that can be quick. Operating in the mental health world, I know that the courts can readily convene at 24 hours’ notice; I have often had to take a magistrate’s order and get a court decision quite quickly. It is possible for someone to have judicial oversight within a short time if the process is developed correctly. Looking at the range of options provided in this group of amendments, I would say that the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, are worth supporting, and I will go with them despite my original anxieties. They will make the Bill workable and not destroy it, whereas the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, would make it unworkable. For that reason, I urge all noble Lords who like the principles of the Bill to support the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in his amendments.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I hope we will not be called upon to vote on either amendment but very much hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will reflect most carefully on what has been said. He knows that I totally respect, indeed honour, his motives in bringing the Bill before the House. He knows also that I have considerable misgivings. However, this House decided, rightly, to give the Bill a Second Reading, and it is now our duty to try to improve it so that those of us with misgivings have them allayed so far as possible, and so that those who believe in the Bill, and are a little impatient in their belief, will accept that we are in no sense seeking to retard the Bill’s progress, but rather to improve it. I make that point in particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, who intervened a few moments ago.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I very strongly support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I actually think that the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has a great deal to commend it, and I would have said that to him. However, the point made by the noble and learned Lord is terribly important. Who is going to be the deciding factor on the terminal illness? I believe that this is an enormously important issue for Report—and I am at the moment assuming that the Government will give us time to have Report. I refer to what was said by the noble Lord on the Front Bench. This has got to a point of such importance that I really do not think that it should be addressed at this stage.

[Lord Cormack]

What can possibly be lost by having further conversation and discussion? If the amendment is put to the vote and is carried, other amendments cannot then be discussed because a number of them will fall by the wayside. That is not going to assist our progress in having a full-ranging discussion. I would beg the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, not to press his amendment today so that discussions can take place. I make this suggestion, as I did in my speech, in a wholly constructive manner. I would beg of the noble Lord to heed that, because pre-empting other amendments is not the best way of taking this forward.

[Lord Pannick]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have put to me pleas, begging—or however it is put—and I do take them very seriously indeed. However, it seems to me that after two hours we have had a very considerable debate on an issue of principle relating to the Bill. There is widespread agreement that there should be a judicial protection included in the Bill. As I understand it, only two real concerns have been expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has suggested that the protections in my amendment are not sufficiently robust. With great respect, I do not accept that. The other objection raised is that it should not be judges of the Family Division who hear this. I think that this is so grave an issue that it is right and appropriate that the judicial protection is at that level. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, will confirm from her experience, there is nothing formal about the Family Division in appropriate cases. Judges hear the disputes around the bedside of the patient when necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, in his moving speech, was concerned about wrongdoing. I say that if the judge is satisfied on hearing evidence that the decision is,

“voluntary, clear, settled and informed”,

by a person who has capacity, then the noble Lord’s concerns about wrongdoing will be met. It is time that we came to decision on this matter of principle, encouraged as I am by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, says. I willingly give way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I rise also to point out what seems to be a flaw in the drafting of the second proposed new subsection in Amendment 12. As drafted, the registered medical practitioner, registered nurse or other health professional does not have to be treating the person referred to. That would mean that if my daughter was a nurse, she would be caught by such a measure if she said to me, “Dad, shouldn’t you seek assistance?”. That does not sound probable but you never know. I simply draw the Committee’s attention to what seems to be a fatal flaw.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, there are clearly deficiencies in the drafting but my noble friend Lord McColl made it quite clear what he was seeking to put across. There needs to be something to replace this in the Bill because we do not want anybody to be able to suggest this. That is the simple point that my noble friend was seeking to make. It is self-evident and I hope we will have a sympathetic response from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, indicating that he will look carefully at perhaps crossing a few “t”s and dotting a few “i”s.