Nationality and Borders Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 3rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the Committee will be pleased to hear that I am not hangry any more. I would not like the Chief Whip to think that this speech is so short because of what he just said; it was going to be short anyway.

Amendment 67 in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hamwee seeks to take out an apparently innocuous part of the Bill that intends to put into primary legislation that the feet of the asylum seeker need to be on dry land in the UK before they can claim asylum. At present, this requirement, “UK terra firma” as I might call it, is contained in the Immigration Rules rather than in primary legislation. The concern of organisations such as the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association is that this strengthens the Government’s hand in any court case where Home Office actions are challenged as being contrary to the refugee convention, where the Government can now point to primary legislation as in some way overriding their international obligations.

Section 2 of the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 provides that nothing in the Immigration Rules may lay down any practice that would be contrary to the refugee convention. Moving the UK terra firma condition from the Immigration Rules to primary legislation may be seen as an attempt to get around this requirement. The change is seen as integral to other quite abhorrent and questionably legal measures that we will come to later, giving Border Force and others the authority to board, intercept and drive away vessels containing asylum seekers crossing the channel.

Presumably this change that we are challenging is to stop asylum seekers being pushed back towards France from trying to claim asylum in the channel. Clause 13(7) may seem innocuous, but it is part of a greater evil and should be removed from the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a couple of questions for the Minister on Amendment 67. I will be interested to hear the debate on this amendment because the change in Clause 13(7) appears to be fairly innocuous, although quite significant. As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, has said, the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association has raised concerns about it so we will all listen carefully to what the practical impacts of this charge are.

Can the Minister explain what “territorial sea” of the United Kingdom means? I take the Chief Whip’s point—this may seem a very detailed point, but that is the point of Committee. What does “territorial sea” mean with respect to the beach? My understanding is that territorial water is low tide to 12 nautical miles out. The target then becomes the low beach mark. How is that measured? This is pedantic, but important: how is that measured around the coast?

I looked up the Explanatory Notes for Maritime and Coastal Access Act 2009 and I do not understand what they mean:

“For the most part the territorial sea of the UK does not adjoin that of any other state. Where it does do so in the English Channel, the Territorial Sea (Limits) Order 1989 … sets out the limits of the territorial sea in the Straits of Dover in accordance with an agreement between the UK and France.”


Is that still in existence? The notes continue:

“In relation to the delineation of the territorial sea between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, the situation is more complex, with no boundary having been agreed between the two states. Instead arrangements have been put in place under the Belfast Agreement for joint management of the Loughs that form the border (the Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission’s Loughs Agency).”


I do not expect the Minister to answer now—this is not a trick question—but will she write a letter to explain what the legislation means for someone who may or may not be claiming asylum? The Explanatory Notes continue:

“Within the territorial sea, the UK has jurisdiction for the sea itself, the seabed subjacent and the air above.”


I do not know what the “air above” means. Will the Minister clarify that point?

I am confused—and the Government are confused—on another point. A row is clearly going on in government between the Ministry of Defence and the Home Office on pushback and this House is confused by the Government’s response.

Yesterday at the Home Affairs Select Committee, the Home Secretary was asked whether James Heappey, a Ministry of Defence Minister, was right to rule out pushback by the Navy. To be fair, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, ruled this out in this Chamber in answer to a question from me and other noble Lords. We were told by the Home Secretary, and this is really important, that the Minister

“gave a view … They are not facts. They cannot be facts, because the work—that operational work—is still under way. While I appreciate that he was responding to questions in Parliament, whether that was in Committee or in response to an urgent question, this is work in progress. It is wrong to say anything specific with regards to work operationally that is still being planned. That work has not completed yet.”

They cannot both be right, can they? If the Government have a pushback policy, they have a pushback policy and, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, mentioned, presumably including the seas helps with that. I do not know. What is the Government’s policy on pushback? We are debating the Nationality and Borders Bill and an aspect of it to do with territorial seas and I have no clue what the Government’s policy is.

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[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for speaking to these amendments. In terms of territorial waters, yes, I understand it to be 12 nautical miles at low tide. In terms of pushbacks, of course I agree with my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and we are developing a range of tools to tackle the illegal and very dangerous crossings in the channel.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I absolutely understand why the Minister has said what she has with respect to the Home Secretary. Nobody, including me, expects the Minister to get up and say that she disagrees with the Home Secretary—for obvious reasons. But that is not the point. The point is: what is the Government’s policy? The Ministry of Defence is saying one thing—including the Minister who speaks for defence matters from the Dispatch Box—and the Home Secretary is saying something completely different. It is not good enough.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord and I will clarify the point on this issue. He knows that I will clarify that for him.

Amendment 67, if we can get on to that, seeks to weaken the message that this Bill strives to send. People should not risk their lives using unseaworthy vessels—I do not think anyone would think that they should—to reach our shores when they have already reached safety in a country such as France. It puts their lives at risk, and those of Border Force and rescue services. Events in recent months have all too starkly demonstrated the devastating human cost of undertaking these journeys. This provision is just one of a host of measures which aim to deter illegal entry to the UK. It is right that we prioritise protection for the most vulnerable people rather than for those who could have claimed asylum elsewhere.

Parliament has already had an opportunity to scrutinise these measures when they were placed in the Immigration Rules in December 2020. It has been a long-standing practice in place for many years to only accept claims for asylum in person at the individual’s first available opportunity on arrival in the UK. These provisions simply seek to place these long-standing requirements on a stronger statuary footing.

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Moved by

[Lord Coaker]

77: Clause 17, page 21, line 15, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may not serve an evidence notice on a person who—(a) has made a protection claim or a human rights claim on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity;(b) was under 18 years of age at the time of their arrival in the United Kingdom;(c) has made a protection or human rights claim involving sexual or gender-based violence;(d) is a victim of modern slavery or trafficking; oron other categories of person on whom the Secretary of State considers it would be inappropriate to serve an evidence notice.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment probes the serving of an evidence notice on vulnerable groups.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Rosser tabled Amendments 77 and 89. In this group we also very much support the important amendments in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton; those of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to remove the deadline; the crucial amendments of my noble friend Lord Dubs on the weight given to evidence; and indeed the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. This is another important group of amendments.

The Government are aware that there are extreme and widespread concerns over the impact of the late evidence provisions in this part of the Bill, particularly the impact on vulnerable groups of people. I am pleased that the Government agree, because in their equality impact assessment which goes with the Bill there are hundreds of quotes that could be used to support the amendments that have been put down by various noble Lords. I have picked just a couple out. For example:

“We will continue to consider ways in which to mitigate adverse impacts on vulnerable people.”


Astonishingly, it also admits that:

“Where we do not have data, we have made assumptions.”


One hopes that if they have made assumptions on legislation which we are going to presumably pass at some point, we will continue to look at how we mitigate these consequences.

Noble Lords will be particularly interested in a quote from the Government’s own evidence to themselves:

“There is a risk that our policies could indirectly disadvantage protected groups.”


That is the Government’s own evidence to themselves. They are worried about the impact on protected and vulnerable groups—they say so in their impact assessment. If noble Lords have not had a chance to read all if it, it is worth reading in great detail. If the Government come back and say that there is no need for some of these amendments, they are actually contradicting their own evidence. So I support the Government’s equality impact assessment of these amendments and hope that noble Lords will also support it, and that the Government will welcome the amendments for further clarifying their own impact assessment.

Crucially, the amendments seek to provide more clarity on how vulnerable groups will be considered and what will be accepted as, for example, a good reason for late compliance. It is well understood, but not particularly reflected in these provisions, that those who have experienced trauma may find it intensely difficult, if not impossible, to disclose their experiences on demand.

Amendment 77, in the name of my noble friend Lord Rosser, would prevent evidence notices and the strict cut-off date for evidence being served on children, people seeking asylum based on their sexual orientation or gender identity, or survivors of sexual violence, gender-based violence or modern slavery and trafficking. I should declare again my interest as a research fellow at Rights Lab, at the University of Nottingham, in respect of modern slavery and trafficking. This amendment seeks to probe what the approach will be to these and other vulnerable groups.

I was struck by my noble friend Lord Cashman’s speech, on Tuesday, about somebody fleeing persecution because of their sexual orientation. He said that when you arrive at a place of safety, your first thought is that you are safe, not whether you are complying with a notice of what you will be required to do by a certain date or else be in trouble; indeed, when you are fleeing from whatever it is you are fleeing from, you first thought is not whether you have picked up all the relevant papers. These are the sorts of things that we need to consider.

Crucially, the amendment is not limiting, as it allows the Secretary of State to recognise further vulnerable groups who should also be exempt from these provisions. There is always a problem when you generate a list that there is someone you do not include.

An LGBTQ+ asylum seeker may face obvious problems providing evidence of sexuality, given that they will have been forced to hide in their home country through fear of persecution or death. They have fled to seek safety. They may not be being interviewed through a translator, the fear has not left them, they may not have the language with which to express what they have been through, and they may be fearful for the loved ones they have left behind. I know many noble Lords will have met many victims and survivors. Part of the problem is the concern they have for people at home, back in the country they have fled. I use myself as an example, as I know other noble Lords might: I would not comply with an authority, even if I felt safe, if I thought that my sister, brother, uncle, husband, wife or whoever was going to be put in danger—I just would not. I sometimes wonder whether what the Government are suggesting complies with the real world in which we all live.

Women for Refugee Women, which supports women fleeing gender-based violence, has said that

“because there are so many legitimate reasons for why a woman who has survived gender-based violence may submit evidence late, we do not think there is a way in which these evidence notices can be implemented fairly in respect to these highly vulnerable individuals.”

The Government themselves recognise that these specific difficulties exist, yet now, if a vulnerable person cannot produce that relevant evidence by a fixed date, it will be considered to have less weight than it is actually worth. That is included in the legislation, as laid out in the clauses we are considering at the moment.

Particularly concerning is that victims of modern slavery and trafficking are included in these provisions. The Government’s own statutory modern slavery guidance says that victims may be

“reluctant or unable to self-identify … Victims may experience post-traumatic stress disorder and anyone interviewing a potential victim should be aware of the impact of trauma on the interviewee, for example difficulty recalling facts.”

Why then, on the one hand, does guidance recognise the impact of trauma in disclosing experiences, yet, on the other, the Bill includes provisions that penalise people for not being able to hand over a neat life story on a deadline? That is contradictory.

Can the Minister clarify—because it is not clear to me—whether these provisions will be applied to children? The number of children waiting for more than a year for their initial decision increased from 563 in 2010 to 6,887 in 2020. That is not because of a surge in applications; it is because of a breakdown in the asylum system. We need to be extremely careful that the Government’s answer to that huge increase is not to penalise children for a failure of the system.

The Bill provides for exemptions where a person has good reason for not complying on time, but we need more information, as we have heard in respect of other parts of the Bill, about what is meant in practice by “good reasons”. Is that a subjective judgment? Is it just left hanging? What does “good reasons” mean? Our Amendment 89 probes examples of what would be considered a good reason for providing evidence late for a PRN. The amendment includes examples of where there is evidence of post-traumatic stress and where it would potentially endanger a person to gather the needed evidence before the cut-off date. It would also require the Secretary of State to publish a non-exhaustive list of what would be accepted as a good reason. The Minister will understand that we are trying to understand what the Government mean by “good reasons”.

It is particularly interesting that the only answer to these queries that we had in the Commons was:

“Guidance … will be published and made available when these measures come into force.”—[Official Report, Commons, Nationality and Borders Bill Committee, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 357.]


We know how difficult it is for us to consider whether that is the appropriate way forward and or whether it satisfies this Chamber given that it is, “We’ll pass it, but don’t worry, the guidance is on its way, and we’ll deal with it”. I say with all respect to the Minister that that is not good enough. Parliament is being asked to pass this Bill now, and we need greater clarity and understanding about how it will function in practice.

Clause 25, on which there is the stand part debate, states that “minimal weight” should be given to late evidence. It is extremely problematic to give important evidence minimal weight based on a deadline rather than judging it on its merits. That is prioritising process over truth and factual evidence, and it will lead to bad decisions. It completely flies in the face of the established practices and procedures of this Parliament and our judicial system. I say again that the Government are prioritising process over truth and factual evidence and it will lead to bad decisions.

The system is currently not operating as it should. The proportion of asylum appeals that were successful in 2020-21 was 47%, so evidence is already not being given the weight it should be given because almost half the decisions are overturned on appeal, and it is leading to decisions that are incorrect. Why in this situation would we build in a mechanism to take evidence less seriously? It flies in the face of the reality that we are confronted with. We must ask how this measure complies with the legal requirement on the Government and all of us to act in the best interests of the child. Can it ever be the case that giving evidence of their need for asylum “minimal weight” is in their best interest?

We therefore strongly support my noble friend Lord Dubs’s Amendments 83 and 88 to remove, as recommended by the JCHR, the provision in Clause 25 that the deciding authority must have regard to the principle that minimal weight should be given to the evidence. It is quite an astonishing principle to establish in law that evidence should be given minimal weight rather than whether it is good evidence or bad evidence or whether it is truthful evidence or untruthful evidence. The noble Lord has been in court. I am sure that if he was giving evidence and somebody said, “Well, that’s minimal”, he would say, “Well, actually, it’s true.” I am not a lawyer, but I would hope that anybody representing me would put good evidence forward and the court would say whether it was good or bad, and you would hope to establish the facts.

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[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

It is because there is absolutely nothing wrong with Parliament saying to a tribunal, “We want you to have regard to this principle, but of course the final decision is yours”. We do that in other areas of the law as well. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, kindly said, I gave evidence yesterday to her committee in what I hope was an interesting session. One thing we talked about was Section 12 of the Human Rights Act. The layout there was not a million miles away from this. It too gives a very clear direction to the court, but ultimately it is the court’s decision. I find it slightly surprising that, on the one hand, the noble Baroness is saying that this is tawdry and dreadful but, on the other, is saying, “Actually, you don’t need it all because the same result is going to eventuate”. Both points cannot be right at the same time.

As we all know, the asylum and the legal systems in this regard are overwhelmed. We see repeated unmeritorious claims at the very last minute designed to delay removal. This clause is a proper part of an overall system to make sure that we give protection to those who need it—I always put that first; that is the most important thing—and at the same time to identify unmeritorious claims.

Finally, Amendment 137 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, seeks to implement a recommendation made by the JCHR in its ninth report. Of course, we welcome the JCHR’s positive comments on Clause 45. Migrants who are subject to removal must be given sufficient opportunity to access justice. The clause improves and enhances the status quo. It gives a statutory guarantee that migrants will receive a minimum notice period of five working days. As a result, some migrants will get more time compared to the current policy. It introduces a separate statutory requirement for a notice of departure details to be provided to the migrant before removal.

On a practical level, Clause 45 will be supplemented by policy guidance that accords further respect to the common-law right to access to justice. I say respectfully that it is not clear to me what deficiency in Clause 45 Amendment 137 tries to address. I would genuinely welcome engagement from the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to identify what offending aspects of Clause 45 there may be and how Amendment 137 would solve them.

Therefore, having taken probably too much of the Committee’s time already, I invite the various noble Lords to consider not pressing their amendments.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this very important debate. I also thank the Minister. Yes, it was a long reply, but it was an important one and it did not take up too much time. Sometimes long replies are needed, and the Minister was right to take the time that he took to respond. There are a large number of points on which I could reply to the Minister, but it is clear that we will have to come back to some of them on Report.

If the Minister does not mind me chiding him slightly, I will say that that was a bit of a “no worries, no problem” defence: “Everything is fine. It will all be sorted in guidance, although we will not see it until some future time. Do not worry about the children problem that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, raised, because we have all taken into account the sensitivity of children and how old they are. Do not worry about LGBTQI because they will all be very reasonable. Do not worry about the good reasons either—it will all be sorted. Good reasons mean good reasons. Nobody will do anything about it if the reasons are good.”

One example where the Minister was in trouble at the end essentially concerned Clause 25(2). When is a principle not a principle? Is it a principle when it is written down? I love the phrase “have regard to”; it is always put in. The Minister said that we do not have to take X or Y into account. In a sense, he agreed with the JCHR that a better word would be “may” instead of “must”. This is quite a significant change—something may be taken into account, or it may not be. At the moment, it says “must”. This is the problem with which he was trying to wrestle—first, whether there is a principle at all, and secondly, whether “may” or “must” should be used.

The Government are seeking to deal with the problem that the asylum system is in chaos. Half the decisions are overturned on appeal. Panic has broken out. The Government say, “We cannot have this. The public are going mad. Everybody is dissatisfied. We will get more and more of this. Everyone is making late appeals. They are not abiding by the rules. We have to do something.” A whole series of new measures is being taken to overcome a bureaucratic problem. In the end, it needs good—probably trained—decision-making, speedily done, to get a system that works. The Government will not address the very real problem in the Bill, particularly in respect of late priority notices, except on a piece of paper. In a year or two or three, there will be a Nationality and Borders Bill mark 2. If they are not careful, whoever is in government—I hope it will be a different Government—will be panicking in the face of it not working. They will bring in other measures.

Much of what has quite rightly been raised by noble Lords across the Chamber will have to be revisited on Report. I thank the Minister again for his courtesy and for the time and trouble he took to try to respond. Finally, the sooner we have a look at the guidance, the better. It is very frustrating when the Government say that they will publish the guidance and it is published after the Bill is passed. We deserve to see the guidance as soon as possible. I would be very grateful if the Minister could pass this on. I seek leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 77 withdrawn.