Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Monday 9th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 173 and the passionate speech on child neglect by my noble friend Lady Tyler. Neglect can affect a child right through into adulthood, and we need to address this by giving support to the protection of our children. I also support Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who spoke so powerfully, and in the name of other noble Lords. In doing so, I declare my interest as vice-president of Barnardo’s.

As we have heard, Barnardo’s, the NSPCC and the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, together with over 20 other organisations, including UNICEF, have called for a complete ban on smacking. Almost 70 countries have banned smacking, leaving no ambiguity in the law: it is never okay to “reasonably punish” a child. It is time to join those countries and end physical punishment against children.

There is no evidence that smacking is effective or that it prevents bad behaviour or that it teaches positive behaviour. It can lead to mental health issues in later life and develop a pattern of behaviour of a child learning to use violence to solve problems, to get what they want or even to become a bully.

Smacking can damage parent-child relationships and lead to resentment and fear rather than respect. I have spoken to so many adults who tell me how much they hate their father because of the physical violence that they suffered as a child. It is not only fathers whom they hate but mothers who have inflicted violence on their children.

It is much better to talk a problem through with a child, reason with a child through role play and set good behavioural examples. The earlier that this starts, the better it is in the long term for a happy childhood experience. I wholeheartedly support this amendment.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendments ably introduced by my noble friend Lady Finlay.

They make laws slightly differently in Germany. When a law is made relating to something that affects children, for example, they sometimes insert something in their constitution. I note that in 2000, when the parental right to spank was rescinded in Germany, a new phrase was introduced into the German constitution:

“Children have a right to an upbringing free of violence. Corporal punishment, emotional harm and other humiliating measures are not permissible”.


That has happened, and similar steps have been taken in 75 countries to date where smacking is not permitted. Many of those countries are in Europe. Almost the whole of Europe forbids smacking. We stand out as an exception in the map of Europe where it is illustrated. Just as Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are not worse places as a result of the banning of smacking, the same will be the situation in the whole of the United Kingdom when England follows Wales, Scotland and, hopefully, Northern Ireland.

Section 58 of the Children Act 2004 is predicated by opposition to smacking, not by encouragement of smacking. As has already been said, it was banned in schools but has been allowed to continue in certain very restricted circumstances in homes. As early as 2007, the Crown Prosecution Service issued a report in which it was opposed to banning smacking altogether but observed that the defence was being used in inappropriate situations and in the wrong kinds of cases. There is absolutely no evidence that the banning of smacking would have any dramatic effect on parents who, like the parents in the countries that I have named, have simply been told, “You can’t smack your children anymore”. I believe that people are ready for that in this country.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in an extremely powerful speech, gave several examples of cases in which the terrible violence that eventually was used against children probably started with the first smack. It is quite wrong that we should allow that sort of situation to develop.

I listened with great care—my synapses were operating in overdrive—while the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, was speaking. However, he is now a bit historical in this argument. I treat his points with respect, of course, but I prefer those that have been made by other noble Lords in this House. Between the noble Lord and the Royal College of Paediatrics, I prefer the royal college.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the case for Amendment 67 and the associated Amendment 505 has very powerfully been made. I add a couple of additional points that might perhaps inform the House and be useful. I note that more than 30 MPs in the other place supported a similar amendment and that there it was driven by the honourable Labour Member for Lowestoft and my honourable friend the Member for North Herefordshire. It is not that we are suddenly bringing this up in your Lordships’ House—there is strong support in the other place as well for government action here.

I moved an amendment along similar lines to end the defence of reasonable chastisement during the Domestic Abuse Bill. I was quite new to your Lordships’ House and learned along the way that many people had been working on this for decades longer than I had been. I heard from the then Conservative Government, “Oh, it’s not the time now; we’ve got to see what happens in Scotland and Wales”. I would very much like to think that we are not going to hear the same thing this evening, although I am not terribly optimistic.

Like others, I listened very closely to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson. I say a couple of things in direct response to the noble Lord. He cited Professor Larzelere, who would best be described as a “controversial” academic. I point noble Lords to an article responding to some of the work of Professor Larzelere in the journal Marriage & Family Review in 2017, “Researchers Deserve a Better Critique” by George W. Holden et al. The authors say that Professor Larzelere had profoundly misunderstood the description of positive parenting and was very misinformed about the whole academic field.

You could feel a visible sense of shock around the House when the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, suggested that smacking was harmless. That is a disturbing label to put when we know from the Royal College of Paediatrics that children who have experienced physical punishment are 2.6 times more likely to experience mental health issues. We know what a mental health crisis we have in our society. They are up to twice as likely to experience further forms of abuse, sometimes leading to the cases that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, presented to us so powerfully. The college makes a really important point that children who have experienced physical assault are more likely to believe that violence is accepted and encouraged in society. We want to protect the vulnerable children, but we are also addressing the question of what sort of society we are.

We have had a number of international comparisons, but I believe that Thailand is the most recent state to have banned physical abuse of children. I happen to know quite a bit about Thailand. I was technically a Thai civil servant in the 1990s when I was there as an Australian volunteer abroad. I follow Thai politics quite closely and know quite a lot about Thai society. This is a big step for Thailand to take. Thailand has had a great deal of political difficulties in recent years but has regarded protecting its children as so important that it has ensured that there is legal protection. It is interesting when you look at the government announcements around this that this is a need to support parents as well as to ensure the protection of children.

I have one final point to make and a question for the Minister. The NGO Article 39 sets out the historic background for the reasonable chastisement offence, which arises from a criminal case in 1860, R v Hopley, about a head teacher found guilty of the manslaughter of a 13 year-old child with learning difficulties. The head teacher had beaten the child with a stick for more than two hours. Looking at the judge’s words on which this whole “reasonable chastisement” is based, the judge said that a parent or schoolmaster

“may for the purpose of correcting what is evil in the child inflict moderate and reasonable corporal punishment”.

That is the origin of what has got us to where we are today and what we are trying to change with this amendment. It is a reflection of how out of date the current legal situation is.

Finally, my question to the Minister arises from the Article 39 briefing. We have all focused on parents, but the briefing says that the defence

“has also not been removed from part-time educational settings (including those operated by religious organisations), children’s health settings or supported accommodation for looked after children aged 16 and 17”.

Can the Minister—either now or I will understand if she wishes to write to me—set out whether that briefing is indeed correct and there is still that allowance of violence against children in other settings as well?