European Council

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 23rd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to highlight the TTIP agreement—the Europe-US trade agreement. Once it is finally in place it will be worth a huge amount to the United Kingdom and all other members of the European Union. It is a good example of why membership of the European Union remains very important to us as a country.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord raises an important question, but in the time available I will not be able to do it justice. Clearly we want to prevent the extension of nuclear arms wherever there may be a risk of that happening.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, in the event of an incident occurring somewhere in eastern Europe during the next six weeks, can we have an assurance that the Prime Minister would not unilaterally take action without the fullest possible consultation with the leader of the Opposition?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Prime Minister has been clear that his first priority would be to seek a political solution and diplomatic route in response to any kind of situation and that any action taken by the United Kingdom would be as part of wider international auspices.

Legislative Scrutiny: Digitalisation

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is right. Not only do we need to make sure that those who use access technology are well served alongside any new technological developments; we also need to make sure that those of us who rely on paper and prefer to do our work in an analogue fashion are able to do so. At the same time, we do not want to be behind innovation, so it is also about bringing people with us.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

If the objective is greater public scrutiny of work in the House of Lords, in particular on legislation, why does the House of Lords not have its own television channel instead of having to share one with the House of Commons? If the public want to watch what happens in this House, they have to wait until one o’clock in the morning. Have we actually assessed what it might cost to provide another channel?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Lord knows, I used to work at the BBC. If he would like, I could give him chapter and verse some other time on the way in which decisions are made on the costing of channels. While we do not have our own dedicated channel, it is important for us all to be aware that people have access to what goes on in this Chamber and in all the other democratic Chambers around the UK via a BBC service called “Democracy Live”, as well as what is available through parliamentlive.tv.

Parliament: Conventions

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I disagree with my noble friend because I think we have proved in the course of this Parliament that these conventions have, as I say, stood the test of time. Therefore, I believe that it is unnecessary to constitute another committee and that the conventions will be adaptable throughout the next Parliament.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Rooker asked a specific question about whether there would be references to these matters in the manifestos of the political parties and the Government. What will happen in the case of the Conservative manifesto?

House of Lords: Procedures and Practices

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in opening my remarks I need to go back to the Parliament Act 1911, and the subsequent general acceptance by a hereditary House that the Commons were entitled to their business—an arrangement that held right up to the exclusion, 15 years ago, of most of the hereditaries. Of course I accept that during the period there were a disproportionate number of Labour Government defeats. Nevertheless, the arrangement was generally sustained.

But the hereditary House was archaic. It had to go. It has been replaced, over 15 years, by a House that is far more politicised and assertive. It is that which brings me to the issue of procedural reform. The introduction of a large group of former Labour and Conservative MPs, along with a substantial contingent of former Liberal Democrat parliamentary candidates, has profoundly changed the House and the way it works.

When I came here in 2001, even then I was conscious of a different culture, and I made a conscious effort to depoliticise my speeches. That, for me, was a big change after 22 years of fierce political debate in the Commons. I took a hard line on secondary legislation, refusing to vote on fatal Motions, and refused to insist more than once on Lords amendments. But this is now all being challenged. With its vast new intake of the more politically engaged, the House of Lords is changing.

That brings me to what might happen next year, after the general election, and the implications for procedure. Historically, polling has helped in the prediction of election results, but next year’s poll is impossible to predict. The political landscape is far more volatile. Both the main parties could see a reduction in votes yet an increase in seats. Both the Greens and UKIP could win a substantial number of votes yet, in the absence of proportional representation, no seats. What happens if the Liberal Democrats, outside their incumbency seats, find that their national vote completely collapses, and perhaps even turns out to be lower than the UKIP vote? What happens if, on a collapsed national vote, the Liberal Democrat group in the Commons is reduced to a rump? What happens if both the main parties lose seats to UKIP? The implications for the House of Lords and its proportionality are immense.

Let us take a step back to the last general election, and the coalition agreement. The programme for government stated:

“Lords appointments will be made with the objective of creating a second chamber that is reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last general election”.

On the combined coalition Benches, that objective has been realised. But the May 2015 proportions are likely to be very different. The result may well be a disproportionate House, lacking all credibility. For example, after next May the 106 Liberal Democrats, who currently comprise nearly 20% of the working political appointees to the House, may have a much reduced mandate, while their numbers are increasing in the Dissolution Honours List.

How will we be able to justify a House of unelected Peers who may well in no way reflect either the proportions of votes cast in the country or even, on a lesser measure, the proportion of seats won in the House of Commons? How will we be able to justify their right to amend legislation and on occasion to drive legislation into the process of horse-trading during wash-up, which so often can lead to unreasonable compromise? Horse-trading over amendments with representatives of disproportionate political parties would be an affront to democracy, particularly under a minority Government.

If there are those who doubt that such conditions could arise, let me remind the House of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, who is in his place, speaking on behalf of his party in 2005:

“I do not believe that a convention drawn up 60 years ago on relations between a wholly hereditary Conservative-dominated House and a Labour Government who had 48 per cent of the vote should apply in the same way to the position in which we find ourselves today”.—[Official Report, 17/5/05; cols. 20-21.]

Speaking in the same debate, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said:

“The Government should not rely on an outdated convention but should argue for their programme on its merits”.—[Official Report, 23/5/05; col. 274.]

We can see where the Liberal Democrats are coming from and how they see their role in the House.

We are on notice, let there be no doubt, that a disproportionate and more assertive House of Lords that could meet after the 2015 general election may lose all credibility if it proceeds to handle legislation under the present arrangements. I foresee a crisis in credibility and the management of business, and some of us may well have a lot to say pending the wider debate on Lords reform. I believe that a major review of our procedures, under the changed circumstances that I have outlined, is utterly inevitable.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I could not possibly comment. My noble friend the Chief Whip felt that the House as a whole, regardless of the Opposition, wanted the opportunity to ask questions, so he went ahead as he did. I am sure that many noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Forsyth, were grateful to him for that decision.

I move on to the category of points raised under the heading, “Arrangement of Business”. As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, acknowledged, we have already changed an awful lot in this Parliament to make our work more relevant and accessible to those who want to engage with it. We have indeed created more opportunities for Back-Bench debates on matters of interest, including the introduction of topical QSDs, which allow time-sensitive issues to be debated quickly, and we have significantly increased the availability of QSDs more generally. We have also devoted more resources to ad hoc Select Committees so that a wide range of cross-cutting topics are able to be scrutinised in detail by noble Lords.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked about co-ordinating sitting times with the Commons. Where we can, we do. In the main, our sittings are aligned because the two Houses work closely together. However, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, we are a separate Chamber with our own priorities, and it is right that we organise our sittings to meet our overall needs.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, also asked about the notification of business. The forthcoming business document produced by the Government Whips’ Office gives a three-week forecast of business in this House, and, clearly, we work hard all the time to ensure that we provide as much information as possible.

The role of the usual channels was raised by several noble Lords, and I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for his comments about how the usual channels work in the interests of the House as a whole, not against them. I dispute the point that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, made. Indeed, we have tried, through the usual channels—whether by ensuring that we schedule business so that we have the right people on the Opposition Front Bench in place to challenge the Government, or by beginning to publish more business calendars on government Bills—to make sure that those who want to engage with our business are able to do so because we provide enough information in advance about what will happen and when.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, made an interesting remark about the digitisation of our amendments. That might lead to complications, but on the general point that she makes, a lot of departments are trying to do that now to ensure that there is greater clarity on how amendments affect legislation.

The proposal for a Back-Bench committee was looked at and voted on by this House—I dispute the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, described that process. The point is that everyone in this House is able to table Motions for debate themselves, without anybody else deciding it. Any noble Lord can go into the Table Office and table a debate, and they are now looked at in the order in which they were first scheduled.

Noble Lords raised several other things—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the noble Baroness accept the principle that after the next general election political appointments to the House of Lords should reflect the proportionate party votes as cast in the general election?

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, on the—

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Popat (Con)]

May we hear from this side? The noble Lord will have an opportunity to speak later.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I take note of the proposal put forward by my noble friend. I do not believe that that is one of the specific steps that we are currently considering but I am happy to talk further to him about his idea.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness reply by not reading the reply to a question she has not heard? She seems to be reading all these answers. Will she answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Warner earlier about why there is such a big difference between the way that Israel is being treated in the crisis that it has created by occupying the West Bank of the Jordan and the far more vigorous treatment being meted out to the Russians when they have not even invaded a country?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have been very clear in responding to the points raised in the course of this Statement. In respect of Gaza, there are three situations that need to be dealt with. The first concerns an immediate ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, and stopping the fighting and bloodshed that are occurring there. Then we need a durable ceasefire to ensure that this kind of situation is not repeated; all parties involved in that need to play their part. Clearly that is the only way of our then moving towards the longer-term situation of ensuring that the Middle East peace process has some prospect of succeeding.

House of Lords: Question Time

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 7th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

This House is full of all sorts of Members who are not shy of coming forward and I welcome that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in the absence of a Speaker, we are told by the Government—indeed, by both Governments—from the Front Bench that it is for individual Members of the House to police the House and all its proceedings. However, does that not just create resentment and embarrassment between colleagues? The system does not work.

Immigration

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government do have a policy of adhering to treaty obligations. That is why we are very happy with the accession of Romania and Bulgaria to the EU, and with the free movement of those peoples, from 1 January.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right—but, equally, we must close the loopholes and avoid the abuse of low-cost labour from eastern Europe.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said about the seven-year accession arrangements was correct, why do Mr Cameron and government Ministers go on television and accuse the previous Labour Government of acting irresponsibly?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is important to make sure that we have transitional arrangements for future accessions that work properly and do not have undesirable effects, especially when the acceding state has a lower GDP per capita than the rest of the community.

Woolwich and the EU Council

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Leader of the House referred to the Cameron/Rifkind discussions on the role of the ISC. Can we be assured that the ISC will not be prevented in any way from carrying out a full inquiry to report by December as a result of what the Leader referred to as the ongoing inquiries being carried out by the police? Can we be assured that the police inquiry will not stop the ISC inquiry from taking place?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, following the conversation that the Prime Minister had with the right honourable Member for Kensington this morning, I know that the ISC is able to go wherever it needs to go to carry out its inquiry. The timetable of reporting by the end of the year is the one to which it is working. If there is further information I can get to amplify that, I will come back to the noble Lord. My understanding is that the terms of reference, as it were, of the ISC have been agreed and the very clear view is that it should be able to carry out its inquiry and do its work in whatever way it thinks it needs to in order to look into the matters properly so we can all see and learn the lessons.

Climate Change

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

I know that my noble friend has some views on this but I cannot agree with many of them. The market for low-carbon goods and services is a growing one for the UK, so I do not buy into the argument that this is costing British business. We are increasingly able to offer renewable energies as part of a good mix of our energy supply, so that we become less dependent on international global price hikes. I urge my noble friend to look at the benefits of having a good energy mix. Part of that must be a good carbon floor price.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, where are we in the discussions on overall climate change targets for 2030, and to what extent will these include clear targets on renewables?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the noble Lord of course knows that renewables will play a vital role in both the UK and the EU’s low-carbon energy mix. We will continue to ensure that that is the case after 2020. Our own electricity market reform proposals will provide strong support for renewable electricity generation, and at EU level we need to consider, within the proposed broader 2030 climate and energy framework, how best to support renewables and other low-carbon forms of energy.

Procedure of the House

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the principle of having to set some criteria, for example on identifying topicality, I shall just go back one stage. I am very glad to have been able to come up with this new proposal for guaranteed time, once a week, to deal with a topical issue on the Floor of the House. I very much accept that we need an opportunity to do that. One would need to establish some points around topicality in exactly the same way as a Back-Bench debates committee will have to come up with a set of criteria within which it would operate in choosing those debates. I accept that we would need to do that work; I would need to come back and show the House those processes.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord referred earlier to the quirky. How will the quirky meet these new criteria? He prayed in aid the need for the quirky Motion to be tabled. How would that work?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

There are a number of different points there. I certainly used the word quirky—I quite like quirky. This goes to the heart of the issue of having a rational process. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, talked persuasively in some ways about wanting a rational process. That could obviously mean a process that can lead, over time, to confirmation around a kind of norm. It could lead to a group of people’s sense of what is rational being superimposed on that of others. On retaining quirkiness, we are more likely to have quirkiness in balloted debates and on QSDs more generally if we do not have a sifting process. The topical slot is a different matter.