Smart Meters Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th April 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I was engaged in debates on these matters with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, 10 years ago, when the original legislation was put through. I am unable to understand what pressure is on the Government to get on with this before the National Audit Office produces its report. I would have thought that that report was critical in all this, as it may well make recommendations that do not fit within the proposals of this legislation. What is the pressure? Could we not have waited for another six months? What would have happened if we had?

[Lord Henley]

I have been criticised for the Government going rather slowly on something that was introduced in 2006 by the Government of whom the noble Lord was a supporter. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, this has continued through the length of two world wars and a bit more; I asked him not to specify any further wars. The NAO has already reported three times. As I said, we will respond to the NAO’s report, but I do not see why we should not continue with what we are doing at the moment. As far as I know, we are all in full agreement on the general benefits of a smart metering programme and of getting as many people as possible on to it, so that they will be wiser about their use of energy and more able to consider which energy supplier to choose—I am just giving all the benefits of smart meters. I do not think that there is any need to pause for the NAO report. As I said, we will consider it and respond as appropriate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Has the NAO expressed a view on whether the legislation should have been delayed? It will have a view. Is it happy for us to proceed with legislation without its report?

[Lord Henley]

I am not aware that the NAO has asked for any delay, but the noble Lord can look at its three reports, including the most recent one, which I have referred to. I will leave that to him.

As I said, we published our prospectus document in 2011, which established a framework for the rollout and was the basis for the regulatory framework through which the rollout is now being delivered. It is right that we have progressed from planning to implementation. Both the Government and Ofgem are focused on monitoring the rollout to ensure that it delivers in a timely way—albeit, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, put it, slightly less timely than he would have liked. Where our monitoring activity identifies areas where the course of the rollout needs to be adjusted, we will of course take action.

In due course, we want smart metering to be business as usual in a competitive retail market. The Government will then be able to step back when it is right so to do. However, in the short to medium term, the Government do not intend to step back from their leadership role. Through the powers in the Bill, we will sustain our active engagement with the industry to ensure that any risks to meeting the 2020 deadline are identified and addressed as quickly as possible. I repeat what I said about hoping to have ongoing discussions with the noble Lord and others, but I hope that in the meantime he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

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I support this programme. It is very important that we have smart meters but, as the programme goes along, particularly because it depends on consumers taking up meters, we need to get this right. I hope that the Government can look seriously at the code of practice. Also, does the Minister think that the code of practice and Ofgem’s powers are strong enough to deal with this?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I do not profess to have huge knowledge of this subject. It is not an issue which I have researched recently.

When the original legislation went through—I refer to the role played by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, in about, I think, 2006 or 2008—I spoke at great length during the course of the proceedings because I knew the subject. However, my questions on this occasion are simple and elementary.

When my service charge for my flat in London is issued every three months by the management company, it always shows the amount of water consumed by each flat in a list that is circulated to all members of the residents’ association—there are about 160 flats and a similar number of members—and therefore the occupants of flat 1 in my block will see how much water I use. I have always thought that was rather dangerous—depending into whose hands it fell—because from water consumption you can tell the scale of occupancy of the residents.

When I was having a chat with some colleagues and I saw Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, in which paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2) of the proposed new clause refer to,

“the risk of data obtained from consumers being stolen”,

and,

“the risk of data obtained being passed on to third parties without the consent of the consumer”,

I was left wondering what would happen with this 2G technology and how easy it would be to hack in and find out how much electricity is being used by the occupant of a particular flat or house. That is exactly the information that burglars, of all people, would want. I wonder to what extent these matters have been taken into account when deciding on the technology supplied. People have meters at the moment, but I do not know if there has been any research on whether this information is already being tapped into and given to people who would misuse it by breaking into people’s homes. Has any work been done to establish to what extent that might be a problem?

The Minister cannot have all the answers—I understand that—but if we are not aware today of the incidence of this information being abused, perhaps he could write to the members of the Committee about it because it is important. We are going into a new era with all this technology and I wonder whether it could be abused by people having that important information when they are seeking to burgle or interfere with other people’s properties.

[Lord Grantchester]

I support Amendments 6 and 11 which are also in this group. In Amendment 6, the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, seeks a review of the code of practice energy suppliers must follow in the installation of smart meters. We agree with that as a necessary and constant reassessment of best practice should become part of any post-rollout review.

Similarly, Amendment 11, also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Maddock and Lady Featherstone, calls for a review of the use of data from the operation of smart meters. I am grateful to them and my noble friend for highlighting some of the problems that could arise if we are not careful in this operation. We agree that it should be kept under constant review by the department to make sure that the risk of errors and non-compliance is kept to a minimum.

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I hope that, with that assessment, the noble Baroness and others will agree that there are appropriate safeguards. I think that, with what I said on that and on the first amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will be reasonably satisfied, but I offer to write if there is anything more I can say on that matter. Of course, I and no Government—indeed, no one—can give an absolute cast-iron guarantee that any smart meter cannot be hacked into because none of us knows what people will get up to. We also accept and acknowledge that information on any meter is something that could be of use to people outside. We want to make sure that the appropriate protections are in place while also making sure there is appropriate access.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I ask a consumer question: if someone wanted to know now whether it was possible for their meter to be hacked, who would they ask? Who could tell them?

[Lord Henley]

The first people to ask would be the suppliers of that meter, to ask them what evidence they have and to take it from there. The same is true for any IT equipment that the noble Lord buys for any purpose. None of us can give any absolutely cast-iron guarantees as to what can and cannot be done by nefarious people.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

This is one of the reasons why the amendment asking for this sort of national plan would have been interesting. Those are the kinds of questions that the consumer would expect to find in a report of that nature. I would not ask my supplier; I would ask the manufacturer whether its equipment could be hacked. If it said that it could be, I would want assurances as to how that would be dealt with. I am not altogether convinced that manufacturers have been asked, or whether GCHQ has been asked that question for it to appraise separately. It is on the list; I presume it too has been asked about the system that is being introduced.

[Lord Henley]

The point I am making to the noble Lord is that it would be wrong for anyone to give an absolute cast-iron guarantee of any sort with equipment of this sort. I can think of a whole range of other questions on other subjects. I remember that it used to be said that if you went to a school and asked about its policy on bullying and were told there was no bullying, you should immediately reject that school because quite obviously it had no idea of what was going on. Similarly, if someone offered a cast-iron guarantee that their equipment was unhackable, I would have some doubts about it. They could say that they had done everything possible to make sure it was unhackable, but we have the right processes in place with suppliers and others to make sure that checks can be done—which is what I have set out—to make metering as secure as possible. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, who dealt with privacy, that is why we have also had consultations with the privacy commissioner. I think that we have all the appropriate checks in place—but if I offered the noble Lord the guarantee he is asking for, he would know that I was a charlatan.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

There is another question that would have been answered in this report. It is the question that the public ask all the time. If I have a supplier and I have a piece of equipment installed, will I be able to change supplier? Most people in this Room probably know the answer about retaining that equipment, but the great public outside do not know the answer, and that is what they worry about. So it is essential to the Government’s case to make it clear when and in what circumstances that problem will no longer arise.

[Lord Henley]

I fully understand what the noble Lord is saying and the need to provide the public with as much reassurance as possible, and clearly to explain the range of steps that the Government have taken with security experts, including GCHQ, which I mentioned earlier, to provide robust security for the smart metering system. We worked in partnership with GCHQ on the blog on smart metering infrastructure. We will continue to support Smart Energy GB, among others, to provide a clear and reassuring message to the public on smart metering security. We will do all we can. Everyone else will do all they can. All I am saying is that one can never get beyond that 99.9% security up to 100%.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, drew a distinction between transferability and interoperability. The question I am asking is what the public are asking. When will they be given assurances that it will be possible to change supplier and retain their smart meter? It is a very simple question, and I do not think you will find the answer anywhere at the moment as far as the public are concerned.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is moving on to another question.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

This is one of the amendments.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord asked what assurance we can give to the public about security, and I think I have given as much assurance as I can. I acknowledge that it is important for the Government to continue to give as much assurance as possible. That is why we talked to GCHQ and others. With regard to changing supplier—is it changing the meter or changing supplier? They are two different matters.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

One is the consequence of the other, as I understand it. That is the problem. When you change your supplier, I understand that on occasion you have to change the meter. Am I not correct?

[Lord Teverson]

Unfortunately, probably after the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War, the phoney war bit during the coalition Government was around the whole process more or less coming to a halt because this whole security issue came up, which was a major delaying factor at the time. I do not want to talk on behalf of the Government of that time, but security was given huge focus. From a personal point of view, I feel that that area has been dealt with enough at the moment. It clearly needs an ongoing security look, but it was one reason why the whole programme pretty much ground to a halt during part of the period of the coalition Government—if that is at all helpful.

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[Lord Henley]

This is going back in history. The past is another country. I do not think I want to go there just for the moment. I do not know the answer to that. If I can find out more, I will certainly let the noble Baroness know.

The noble Baroness also raised the question of smart meters working with solar panels and spoke about the information she had received from one of her noble friends. As I understand it, all SMETS-compliant electricity meters must be capable of both measuring the amount of energy the household consumes or imports from the grid and recording the electricity generated by solar panels or other microgeneration technologies that is fed back or exported to the grid. We are not aware of any technical reasons why smart meters cannot be installed in premises with microgeneration technologies. However, some suppliers may start installing for these customers later in the rollout. If the noble Baroness would like to go back to her unnamed noble friend—perhaps it was not a noble friend, perhaps it was someone misleading the noble Baroness—and get back to me, I will take this up and find out what the real answer is. The initial response is that we feel that this should not be the case, but I will respond when the noble Baroness gives me more information.

Amendment 7 was spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone. The rollout of smart meters offers an opportunity for consumers to take control of their energy use and realise significant savings as soon as the meter is installed. Like any infrastructure project, the smart metering programme involves some investment, but it will enable a net reduction in consumers’ energy bills over time. Amendment 7 would give the Secretary of State power to modify licence conditions and industry codes so as to require energy suppliers to pass the savings they make from the rollout on to consumers.

We expect that competitive pressures will encourage energy suppliers to pass on the cost savings they make from the rollout of smart meters. If energy suppliers do not pass on the savings to their customers, their customers, as we all know, can switch to a better deal among an increasing number of competitors. As noble Lords will be aware, there is an increasing number of competitors and it is quite simple to switch. We recognise that the market is not working for all customers. That is why we have introduced to Parliament the Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff Cap) Bill—it is in another place at the moment—which will require Ofgem to set a cap that protects existing and future domestic customers who pay standard variable and default rates. The cap will last until 2020, and it may be extended annually, up until 2023, if it is assessed that the conditions for effective competition are not yet in place. In setting the cap, we expect Ofgem to take into account the benefits that energy suppliers will achieve from the rollout.

Smart meters are themselves an enabler to greater competition in the energy retail market. Smart meters provide near real-time information to consumers on their energy consumption and how much it is costing them, giving consumers greater awareness, which in turn is expected to further increase consumer switching. The signs on this are encouraging. According to a report on consumer engagement in the energy market, published by Ofgem in 2017, 23% of consumers who say they have a smart meter have switched supplier in the past 12 months, compared with 17% of those who say they do not have a smart meter. It is worth pointing out that we would expect the level of engagement from consumers to help inform Ofgem’s review into whether the conditions for effective competition are in place.

I turn now to the final two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—Amendments 12 and 13. The Government want consumers to benefit as soon as possible from the advantages of smart meters. That is why we continually review the rollout and take action to remove any barriers to effective delivery. The amendments would require, as a condition of extending powers that the Secretary of State has to amend or introduce new regulation for the purposes of smart metering, one of two conditions are met first before those powers can commence. The noble Lord suggested either 500,000 second generation—SMETS 2—meters must have been installed or a review of the programme, focused on consumer satisfaction and value for money, must be complete. We do not believe that either of those conditions for commencing the extended regulatory powers are warranted or necessary. We are also concerned that the effect of those amendments would be to leave the Government without powers to intervene to unlock delivery barriers and ensure consumer benefits are being realised.

I will take each condition in turn. I shall deal, first, with the noble Lord’s SMETS 2 target of 500,000. Like the noble Lord, we want to see the SMETS 2 meter installation accelerated. It is very small at the moment, but in the near term this should happen only if it is in the best interests of consumers. Setting a target would remove suppliers’ flexibility to plan and manage the rollout efficiently in order to serve their customers effectively in a competitive market and could lead to unintended consequences. We are assured that larger energy suppliers have commercial and financial incentives to drive them to install SMETS 2 meters as soon as is practicable. SMETS 2 meters unlock more of the customer base, supporting more cost-effective marketing approaches. They also include capability for load control and additional support for consumer access devices, thereby supporting service offers in line with energy suppliers’ potential future business strategies. These incentives align with regulatory imperatives to make progress, not least that our current expectations are that from later this year the installation of SMETS 1 meters will no longer count towards an energy supplier’s rollout obligations. We intend to include in future quarterly statistical publications—subject to sufficient supplier anonymisation—information about the number of SMETS 2 meters that have been installed, allowing for progress to be tracked and transparent.

We agree with the noble Lord that the programme should understand its impact during operations, in terms of consumer satisfaction and value for money. As regards consumer satisfaction, the department commissions and receives, including via Smart Energy GB, regular survey updates on smart meter consumer satisfaction. I have referred to some of them, and the satisfaction levels that have been achieved. In terms of value for money, my right honourable friend the Minister for Business and Energy, Claire Perry, has committed, as part of the Bill’s passage in another place, to undertaking and publishing an updated cost-benefit analysis in 2019, which will reflect, among other things, the real benefit for consumers. On this basis, the noble Lord’s condition would be duplicative and risks undermining the powers that the Government need to ensure the rollout is progressed smoothly and in consumers’ best interests.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Can I just ask again a rather simple question? I understand that we are not the only country in Europe with a smart meter installation programme. The French claim that they have done it for half the price of the programme in the United Kingdom. They claim it is going to cost them €5.5 billion, whereas we are potentially spending £11 billion. Is there any truth in that? Is our equipment the same as what the French are introducing? Is there some explanation for this suggestion that we are paying rather a lot for our equipment?

[Lord Henley]

I do not necessarily take all claims from France as seriously as the noble Lord does. I will certainly have a look at that claim being made by the French, but I believe we are doing reasonably well. Obviously, I will have a look at what they are doing and, if there are things that we can learn from that, we should do so. Just as we will continue to monitor delivery in this country, we will study and look at what is happening abroad. I have received advice about what is happening and whether we are sharing our experience with other countries and whether other countries have shared their experience with us. We have looked not just at what is happening throughout Europe—we have met representatives from Ireland, Sweden, Spain, Malta and, I understand, France—but we have looked further afield to India, Australia and the United States. Lessons we have learned include the importance of consumer engagement. That is why I emphasised earlier what we have done on consumer engagement.

On the actual costs, the advice I have received is that the EU average comes in at £181, compared with our figure of around £155 for a single-fuel electricity installation. So that is somewhat lower. On that front we are doing better. If there is anything further I can add about gas distribution grids in Malta or Italy that might be of use or even of interest to the noble Lord, I will pass it on. Another matter that came up was a concern about privacy, which is something that the noble Lord is concerned about and we discussed earlier.

In conclusion, we will continue to monitor the delivery of the programme and will continue to provide updates in annual reports and an updated cost-benefit analysis. I do not think the amendments add much. They risk duplicating those processes and could result, as I said, in unintended consequences that might delay getting the benefits to the consumer. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

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[Lord Henley]

We are going ahead to SMETS 2. The noble Lord is right there. We will see benefits from that, just as we have seen benefits from SMETS 1. That process will continue. I am suggesting to noble Lords and the rest of the Committee that we will provide appropriate reports back as to how that goes in due course, but I cannot provide any figures on exactly how fast that is likely to go, particularly in the initial stage this year.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I shall put it another way: what would happen if, having fitted 500,000, we found that there was a problem?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not believe in crossing bridges until we get to them. When we get to that stage, if there is a problem, I will come back to the noble Lord.

Smart Meters Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

We must move forward. Most of the clauses of the Bill are good and I would not want to get in their way, but we say to the Government, “Okay, you’ve said it’ll work. Get on with it. Good luck, but the rest of the House thinks that you haven’t got a chance”. I rest my case.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, subsection (5)(b) of the new clause proposed by my noble friend states:

“an assessment of the future developments thought feasible and desirable for the smart meter programme, including monitoring of customer activity so as to deliver least cost tariff benefits combined with the maximum ability to engage with future appliance applications, inter-operability, compatibility with smart phones and tablets, and the encouragement of self-generated capacity in the home”.

I shall concentrate on the word “interoperability”, which I raised in Committee.

I was with some friends last weekend and we had a discussion about smart meters. The general view was that the problem with them is that you cannot switch suppliers. Although we are assured by Ministers that we can switch suppliers, the public believe that that is impossible without losing some information. My friends said that some suppliers refuse to have anything to do with the meters provided by others.

We need today from the Dispatch Box an undertaking that under whatever arrangements are ultimately in place, there will be absolute interoperability whereby, whoever is the supplier, the meter will work and provide information on the number of units consumed, the price per unit and the total paid to that point for the power consumed. The public need the assurance that if they get a smart meter, they can switch between suppliers quite liberally without losing any of the facilities available from an existing meter. I would like that assurance from the Dispatch Box, because I am sure that it would resolve many of the existing concerns in the country on the failure of the equipment to be interoperable.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and other noble Lords for introducing their amendments. I think that it was the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, who said that she came late to this debate. That is true of a great many of us—but she is right to say that it has been going on a long time, through a Labour Government, the coalition Government and now under this Government. I believe we are making progress, and I want to correct the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who implied that only about 300 smart meters had been installed. I hope that was just a slip of the tongue and he was just referring to SMETS 2. As he is aware, some 10 million smart and advanced meters are operating across Great Britain, which are being installed at a rate approaching 500,000 a month—and I hope that figure will go up, as all those first-generation meters are expected to be enrolled within the national infrastructure from later this year.

I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Stevenson, the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for the way they have co-operated on this Bill, and the constructive approach they have taken to its scrutiny. I hope that, as a result, we will fairly quickly be able to move on to other matters and then, once the legislation is finished with, get on with the programme and meet the aims shared by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and I. We have heard concerns about how well the smart metering programme will deliver benefits for consumers. I hope that in due course we will be able to address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

I am convinced, perhaps because I am one of those eternal optimists, that the programme will be a success. The noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, smiles at me because she thinks I am too much of an optimist—or too much of a Tigger—in these matters, but it is better to be a Tigger on this occasion than an Eeyore. I shall continue to do so, and I hope the noble Baroness will accept that progress is on the way.

I recognise the spirit in which the amendments have been proposed. While I cannot accept them, I want to set out several commitments that the Government are making, which I hope will address noble Lords’ concerns.

I turn, first, to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, which would require the Secretary of State to establish and put into regulations a national plan for smart meters with associated implementation requirements. We believe we have the right strategy in place for ensuring that the smart metering programme is delivered cost-effectively and that consumer benefits are optimised. The Bill, in seeking an extension to the duration of the Secretary of State’s regulatory powers, recognises that the Government are accountable for delivering the benefits of smart metering and that we need to maintain close oversight of implementation.

There are various aspects of what is proposed that duplicate work that the Government already have in place, which we do not believe would ultimately work in the best interests of consumers. However, we have reflected closely on the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has expressed regarding the programme, and have concluded that there is more we can do to address his concerns to help the programme succeed. We have identified three actions we are prepared to commit to as a result.

I recognise that there is an appetite for the Government to do more to ensure that we are transparent with consumers and Parliament in monitoring and tracking delivery. The programme already publishes quarterly rollout statistics, and we have committed in the other place to publish more substantial reports on programme delivery. I can further commit to publishing, by the end of 2018, as part of our annual report on progress, a forward plan of activity. This will show that the Government have a clear plan for resolving the remaining technical and operational challenges to delivering the programme. The report will be placed in the Library of the House.

I sympathise with noble Lords’ desire for further assurance that the Government have a firm hand on the tiller on all aspects of the programme. I therefore commit to publishing, by spring 2019, a report that will provide a stocktake of progress towards delivering the consumer benefits of the programme. We will take evidence from consumer representative bodies and Ofgem in preparing the progress report. The planned National Audit Office inquiry on the smart metering programme, which we currently expect to report by the end of this year, will be another important strand of evidence. It is right that Parliament should have an opportunity to scrutinise the report. The Government will therefore bring forward a ministerial Statement on the final report, allowing some sort of debate in both Houses of Parliament.

We believe that smart meters will be game-changing for how consumers engage with their energy use and the market. The amendment seeks an assessment of how well the programme is future-proofed and we recognise that there are merits in undertaking an assessment of the smart meter platform in support of this. I therefore commit to publishing a paper by the end of this year that will draw out and promote the potential of the data offered by smart meters for future innovative consumer technologies and services.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised interoperability and claimed that it is difficult to switch between suppliers. It will be important for suppliers to communicate to consumers that they can switch supplier without risk of losing services. From later this year, the enrolment of SMETS 1 meters is expected to take about a year. All SMETS 2 meters will be fully interoperable from the outset. If the noble Lord requires anything further, I am more than happy to write to him.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, in the event that a second supplier takes over, will the information on the meter provided by the first supplier be equally made available by the second?

[Lord Henley]

I think the noble Lord is correct, but if not I will write to him on that matter.

Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, relates to SMETS 2 testing. I recognise that at the heart of the amendment is a concern that the Government are pushing ahead with transition to SMETS 2 meters without adequate checks and balances. We want to transition to SMETS 2 meters as they are better for energy consumers. As I made clear, they offer full interoperability from the outset, cost advantages and support for energy network planning and investment decisions, from which efficiencies and consumer energy cost savings can flow. This is why we will put in place a SMETS 1 end date to drive the transition to SMETS 2 meters.

I reassure the noble Lord that we are not driving this transition blindly. We have thorough and mature industry-wide monitoring and governance that allows us actively to scrutinise this transition. We closely monitor energy supplier and DCC operational capability, meter availability and reliability and supply chain maturity. That is underpinned by a robust testing regime across the end-to-end system set out in the regulatory framework via the Smart Energy Code. It requires, and provides assurance, that the DCC’s systems and services meet requirements; that suppliers and other DCC users are capable of using the services that are provided by the DCC; and that the metering equipment which suppliers enrol with the DCC is interoperable with the DCC’s systems and compliant with the relevant technical specifications. This is backed by device certification via the National Cyber Security Centre’s commercial product assurance scheme.

After undertaking their own thorough testing, leading energy suppliers are now rolling out SMETS 2 meters to real customers at low volumes, demonstrating their confidence in the preceding testing. We think it is right to continue to press other energy suppliers to make the same transition, on the back of their own testing. We are in close dialogue with the DCC and suppliers, and if it was shown not to be in the interests of energy consumers, we would provide further time for the transition.

In light of those assurances, and given the substantive commitments to further government action and information that will be made available to both Houses, I hope the concerns of the noble Lord and all other noble Lords who took part in the debate have been dealt with, and I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.