Hydrogen Energy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 14th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the implications of their decision to cancel the pilot plan for a ‘hydrogen town’.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

It is me again, I am afraid.

We have decided not to progress work on a hydrogen town pilot until after a decision in 2026 on any potential role for hydrogen in heating. The Government carefully considered the implications of this decision and the alternative options. Heat pumps and heat networks will be the primary means of decarbonisation for the foreseeable future.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I start by congratulating the Minister on injecting a modicum of common sense into the myth that hydrogen could ever be a meaningful player in home heating. My Question was prompted by a conversation with the CEO of a heat battery company, who is having to postpone a decision to build a new factory until the Government can give a clear signal that the 2026 deadline for the hydrogen strategy review has gone. Will the Minister take this opportunity to give him that clarity, so that he and others can add to the 9% green growth seen last year in an otherwise stagnant economy?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I would be very interested in speaking to the noble Baroness’s contact in heat batteries; I have also met a number of heat battery manufacturers. For those who have not come across it, it is a great growth industry in the UK and a fantastic technology. There is one particularly good company up in Scotland that I visited recently. I am not sure what extra clarification we could provide that would help her contact. We have said—indeed, I said it in my Answer—that heat pumps, heat networks and electrification will be by far the vast majority of the decarbonisation of home heating in the UK. If hydrogen plays any role at all, it will be only a very tiny one.

Offshore Petroleum Licensing Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

2nd reading
Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all Members from across the House for what has been quite a good debate, for the interest that they have taken in the Bill and for the many insightful contributions that we have had today. I think the debate has shown how interconnected the future of North Sea oil and gas production is with the huge effort we are making—and I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for instance, for pointing out the huge effort we are making —to decarbonise the UK economy through what is a renewables revolution. Nobody disputes that. I do not think anybody in the debate disputed the importance of net zero.

The Government’s position is entirely consistent with delivering on our targets, but we have to manage the decline of North Sea oil and gas production in a predictable and responsible way. I thought that was an excellent point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, from the Liberal Democrat Benches. It is a pity that his two colleagues did not reflect his excellent contribution.

Restrictions on future licensing would be a grave act of national self-sabotage and would place in jeopardy more than 200,000 jobs that OEUK figures show are currently supported by our domestic oil and gas industry. It would forego up to 1 billion barrels of oil equivalent and, equally importantly, remove an important source of tax revenue. That would mean more imports, including of liquefied natural gas, which has up to four times the production emissions of our own natural gas—a point well made by my noble friends Lord Lilley, Lord Moynihan and Lord Ashcombe. It would mean that we forego investment in clean technologies and the energy transition that our oil and gas industry is vital to driving forward, and it would leave us more vulnerable to hostile states, as we saw during the invasion of Ukraine. We need this investment, and we need the sector’s existing supply chains, expertise and skills. Introducing annual licensing rounds through this Bill will help to protect this investment. It will strengthen our energy security and support that essential transition to net zero.

Let me now deal with some of the specific point made during the debate. I thank my noble friends Lord Moynihan and Lord Ashcombe for their speeches, which recognised that the Bill will support our essential energy security. However, I am aware that other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Young, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, suggested the opposite. As I outlined in my opening speech, the UK still relies on oil and gas for most of our energy needs and will continue to do so well into the future, despite our excellent record on rolling out renewables. The UK is exceptionally well placed to support our own energy security and that of our neighbours and allies. As has been pointed out, we have pipelines connecting us to Norway, the Netherlands, Ireland and Belgium. We have the second-largest liquefied natural gas port infrastructure in Europe, and our infrastructure was essential to helping out our European friends and allies during the Russian crisis that they all suffered last winter.

Of course, we also have our domestic oil and gas production, which is a vital part of ensuring our own and our allies’ energy security. We currently produce about half our gas demand from the North Sea. The vast majority of UK-produced gas lands in the UK and combines with imports and storage to provide a healthy and well-supplied gas market. While 80% of the oil produced here is indeed refined abroad, 90% of that takes place in Europe, where it is made into the products that we need in the UK. Maintaining this resource reduces our vulnerability and that of our European allies to hostile states and leaves us less exposed to unpredictable international events. If the invasion of Ukraine pointed out anything to us, surely it pointed out that. Following that invasion, it was our domestic capability that helped us to support our European neighbours to wean themselves off Russian gas and oil, which most European states have now successfully done. By giving industry certainty about the future of licensing rounds, the Bill will help safeguard our domestic production and, in doing so, enhance the UK’s energy security.

Next, let me respond to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, that the Bill will not reduce energy bills. Of course, it is true that oil and gas are traded on a global market. As a net importer of oil and gas, this benefits us. The Government have also ensured that excess energy profits are being used to ease pressures on families across the country. This support helped to save the average household £1,500 on its energy bill last winter. The difficult but necessary decision to further extend the energy profits levy for one more year will raise an additional £1.5 billion contribution from the sector to help us cut taxes for hard-working families, reward hard work and support economic growth.

I have also heard claims that the Bill affects the UK’s international leadership on climate. I thank my noble friend Lord Lilley for his excellent speech, which showed why that is not the case. By contrast, some noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Sheehan and Lady Blake, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich—suggested that somehow the Bill would negatively impact our climate leadership. Our record speaks for itself. We are, as I constantly repeat, the first major economy to halve our emissions, and we are leading the world with our climate performance. Our 2030 target is one of the most ambitious among major economies, and again I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, recognised this. The Bill, I repeat, will not undermine those commitments.

Not proceeding with new licensing, as is the Opposition’s policy, is the real risk to our climate leadership. If we lose the skilled jobs that will transfer from oil and gas to renewables, we put at risk the transition to renewables and net zero. Some other noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who I am sorry to say is no longer in her place—apologies, she is sitting on the Bishops’ Bench, which is a great surprise to us all; I did not see the noble Baroness down there—raised concerns about the tests in the Bill. These tests have been carefully designed to ensure that new licensing supports our important net-zero commitments. The tests are in fact meaningful. Those tests being met would be a reflection of the fact that the UK is a net importer and that production emissions associated with North Sea gas are lower than imported liquefied natural gas.

There was also some discussion of carbon capture, usage and storage. This point was raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Young. The Climate Change Committee, often quoted in this debate, has described CCUS as

“a necessity not an option”

for the transition to net zero. CCUS will be essential to meeting the UK’s 2050 net-zero target, playing a vital role in levelling up the economy, supporting the low-carbon economic transformation of our industrial regions and creating new high-value jobs. The first two CCUS clusters are in the north-west and north-east of England, and we are proceeding as fast as possible to final investment decisions for those clusters. They are already generating thousands of jobs in Merseyside in the north-west and in Teesside, areas that the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and I know well.

I move on to the points raised about marine protected areas. The noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Willis and Lady Boycott, raised the important matter of marine protection. Let me also address the questions posed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich. I assure the House that the Government share the desire to protect the marine environment. Indeed, we have committed that we will be the first generation to leave the environment in a better state than that in which we found it. The UK is committed to the 30 by 30 global target under the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework.

We already have a robust regulatory framework in place to ensure that marine protected areas are effectively protected. Licences will be awarded only after ensuring that the environmental regulator OPRED is satisfied that activities will not have negative effects on those important protected areas. Future licensing will not affect our ability to reach our targets for ensuring that our marine protected areas are in a good or recovering state.

Furthermore, it is important to emphasise that human activity is not banned in marine protected areas. We constrain activities in MPAs, but the intention of the policy is not to forbid activity, especially where the environmental impact is assessed as not causing damage and is closely evaluated and monitored. Work is under way to ensure that we strike the right, important balance between our different marine priorities. The soon-to-be-commissioned strategic spatial energy plan and the cross-government marine spatial prioritisation programme will ensure that we take a more strategic approach to identifying future sites for marine developments and energy infrastructure, while allowing for nature’s important recovery.

In response to the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, the North Sea Transition Authority is responsible for ensuring that operators decommission abandoned wells within the recommended timeframe of two to five years. The noble Baroness also asked me if we would be giving any grants for oil production: no is the answer. In fact, the opposite is the case: any new production will generate billions in tax revenues, the very opposite of giving out government grants. The Government continue to work with the NSTA and the Health and—

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

The Minister has not addressed my third question, about stranded assets. Should these fields become so in the fullness of time, will he put in place safeguards to make sure that the British taxpayer is not liable for the costs?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness often raises this point. The industry pays billions of pounds in taxes every year, and oil companies are ultimately responsible for decommissioning their assets. As has been pointed out, they are commercial operations. If the fields are stranded assets and the oil companies lose money on them, I doubt whether anybody will shed any tears for them. They are responsible for decommissioning the assets, as is taking place now in many of the depleted fields. I think she needs to have a friendly cup of coffee with her noble friend Lord Bruce, who will fill her in on the details of how the industry works.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Yes, we get billions in taxes; that is because trillions are made in profits. What I am really concerned about is that if the businesses fold, the profits have been pocketed but the taxpayer will be left with the costs. Does the Minister accept that?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

If the noble Baroness is asking me if they pay billions in taxes and make billions in profits, then yes, I guess the answer is that the international oil companies do very well out of it. Of course, some of them are also financing renewable infrastructure. Some of the big oil and gas companies are helping to invest in CCUS in this country. We very much hope that they will continue to make profits, because it pays our pension funds and a lot of investors, and a huge amount of money into the UK Exchequer that the Liberal Democrats are normally very keen on spending. The noble Baroness needs to allow that money to be raised in the first place. The companies are responsible for decommissioning their assets.

The Government continue to work with the NSTA and the Health and Safety Executive to ensure that well decommissioning is progressing in line with the relevant safety and environmental regulations and standards. That is exactly the same as has been happening previously. The UK has a very robust decommissioning regime whereby operators are responsible for decommissioning their assets at the end of their useful life. This regime of course includes protections for taxpayers, so that the costs fall on those operators. I hope the noble Baroness is reassured by that.

I was of course also pleased to hear the support of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, for the jobs in the sector. He has a lot of relevant experience, particularly in north-east Scotland. This is in line with the words of Sir Ian Wood:

“Owing to a world-class oil and gas sector, the North East … is home to the critical mass in skills and expertise that will be crucial to ensuring that we successfully accelerate new and green energies, protecting and creating jobs as we do so”.


I am pleased to have the support of the Labour Party, but we must retain those skilled jobs in the industry, and our firm belief is that this Bill will help us to achieve exactly that.

To conclude, the Bill will give industry the certainty and confidence it needs to continue to invest in the North Sea, strengthening our energy security and supporting the energy transition as we move towards our goal of net zero, through the introduction of annual licensing rounds, subject, of course, to all the appropriate tests being met. I look forward to continuing the scrutiny of the Bill as it progresses through the House, but in the meantime, I beg to move.

Limiting Global Temperature Increase

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 13th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand the point that the right reverend Prelate is making, but one person’s disinformation is another person’s free choice and free speech. There is always robust debate about all of these issues. There will be continue to be robust political debate about it, and I think that is right in a democratic society. We are very clear on the policy that we should be following and that we are committed to. We are committed to net zero; it is a legal obligation. The Government are committed to that trajectory.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the agreed wording of COP 28 in the small hours of this morning does not go far enough, given that scientific consensus is strongly in favour of a phase-out of fossil fuels. Nevertheless, this is what we have signed up to. Can the Minister say whether the Government will publish a plan to say how they will meet our commitment to

“Transitioning away from fossil fuels in energy systems, in a just … and equitable manner, accelerating”

—and that is a key word—

“action in this critical decade”.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are into semantics and wording, but a transition away with clear deadlines is, in our view, a phase-out in all but name. It is not the language that we would have preferred, but in a multilateral negotiation there has to be compromise. We are very clear on the trajectory we are following. We have published numerous plans about our transition. We are accelerating the rollout of renewables and reducing our use of oil and gas, and that will continue.

Hydrogen Heating

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 11th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the finding of the National Infrastructure Commission that there is no public policy case for hydrogen heating, set out in the Second National Infrastructure Assessment published in October.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, heat pumps and heat networks will be the primary means of decarbonising heat for the foreseeable future, and will play an important role in all 2050 scenarios. Of course, we welcome the NIC’s input, are carefully considering the analysis and will respond to the report in due course.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. My first question is about the residents of Redcar. Their council leader has written to the Secretary of State to say that they do not want a hydrogen heating trial. Am I correct in saying that they will be allowed to follow the residents of Whitby and veto the proposal? After all, the Minister himself has said as much from the Dispatch Box. Secondly, what assessment have the Government made of recent scientific developments that show that hydrogen leaked into the atmosphere has an indirect global warming impact around 12 times greater than that of carbon dioxide?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

With respect to the noble Baroness’s first question, I think she needs to read the letter from the leader of Redcar Council more carefully. I do not think it supports the analysis she gave. Nevertheless, I have said on numerous occasions that no hydrogen village trial will take place without strong support from local residents. On the noble Baroness’s second question, yes, hydrogen does have a high global warming potential, which illustrates the importance of not allowing it to leak at all.

Climate Change: Phasing Out Fossil Fuels

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are not pursuing climate delaying tactics. Our legally binding net-zero commitment and carbon budget remain exactly the same. I do not know whether the noble Baroness was listening to the answer I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, but we are attracting record amounts of inward investment. At the Global Investment Summit, a whole range of inward investors promised considerable new funding in the order of £30 billion to all these exciting new industries, in which the UK is a world and European leader.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, in his COP 28 speech, the Prime Minister referenced the 48% reduction in UK territorial emissions, but he did not refer to the consumption emissions related to goods made outside the UK. One tool for addressing emissions leakage is via effective carbon pricing, so can the Minister tell the House when the Government will publish their response to their consultation on measures to mitigate carbon leakage, including via a carbon border adjustment mechanism?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness highlights an important matter. We consulted on this in the summer. We are currently doing the work to consider all the implications of carbon leakage measures, including CBAM, which we are looking at closely. We will have more to say on that very shortly.

Climate Change: Aims for COP 28

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not want to repeat the five points that I have made. Obviously, we want to make progress on all of them. That is probably unrealistic; it is a negotiation and there are many countries with different agendas going into it, but we will negotiate in good faith and the overall pledge to take action on 1.5 degrees is probably going to be the most important point, but there are a number of other important negotiating points as well.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, we get quite a lot of our gas from the UAE. What assessment have our Government made of the pollution caused by the flaring and venting of methane by that state?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Flaring and venting is something to be avoided by all member states. The noble Baroness is right that we do import a lot of liquid natural gas. Of course, if she and others were not so keen to halt the UK’s extraction of oil and gas, we would not need to import so much from the UAE. So perhaps she might want to indulge in a little bit of introspection.

Biomass Strategy 2023: Cross Sectoral Sustainability Framework

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 15th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I declare at the outset that I have a biomass boiler, which came with the house I live in—but, honestly, we are trying to get rid of it. It takes trees between 44 and 115 years for sequestration of carbon. The lower estimate takes us well beyond 2050, the upper beyond the lives of anyone born today. So clearly biomass is not renewable within the timeframe needed to tackle climate change. Will the Government take that into account and ensure that the UK applies the precautionary principle and ends the ridiculous classification of biomass as a renewable power source?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am pleased to hear that the noble Baroness has a biomass boiler. In fact, she does not need to get rid of it, because if she sources her pellets from the appropriate sources, that is a renewable resource. These are not pellets from virgin forests but by-products from the timber production process. There are very strict sustainability criteria attached to them and, even if those pellets were not used for biomass production, they would be a waste product because the timber would still be harvested for its other uses. So the noble Baroness does not need to feel so guilty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure I know what third and fourth generation biomass is. I will have to have a cup of coffee with noble Lords afterwards and we can have a chat about it.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that trees decompose only once they are felled?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I suppose, if we want to get into a debate about that, they absorb CO₂ when they are growing. If they are felled and just rot on the ground they emit CO₂, but also when they are burned.

Offshore Wind

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend certainly highlights a concern, but lots of protections are built in and lots of environmental regulations need to be adhered to when these projects are consented to and all the matters are gone into fully, in both environmental and regulatory permitting. Every energy source has its drawbacks. Those who are against nuclear would point to its drawbacks; with coal-fired power stations, there are obviously drawbacks; gas-fired power stations have their drawbacks. There has been an increase in new solar farms being developed in the UK. I can assure noble Lords that, from my postbag, lots of people write in to complain about those as well. We have to get generation capacity and electricity supplies from somewhere. No system is absolutely perfect but offshore wind is certainly one of the best.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, it is unacceptable that last week’s offshore wind auction was a failure because of the Government’s insistence on an unrealistic strike price, yet we remain none the wiser about the cost of another source of electricity—nuclear energy. The cost of Sizewell C’s electricity remains shrouded in secrecy. The only thing we can be sure of is that it will be exceedingly expensive. The Commons Science, Innovation and Technology Committee has called for greater transparency on Sizewell’s cost. Will the Minister take this opportunity to give an updated cost estimate for Sizewell C? We need to be sure that we are on a level playing field.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I will be happy to supply those figures to the noble Baroness in writing if I can. Again, it is worth saying that, in a diversified energy system, it is important to have different sources of supply. I am very enthusiastic about solar and offshore wind; they are intermittent but they are cheap when they are generating. We also need baseload supply, so there will a role for nuclear and for gas-fired power stations, ideally with CCUS fitted as well. It is important that we have diversity of supply, including such things as tidal on a relatively small scale. Geothermal is another technology that was successful in getting contracts under this allocation round. Again, these are nascent technologies that are starting to build up. We need diversity of supply for our future generating mix.

2030 Emissions Reduction Target: Heating

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That depends on what target the noble Lord is referring to. There are a number of different targets but a substantial amount of government funding is going into this—some £450 million for the boiler upgrade scheme and £6.6 billion to decarbonise heating generally.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, this July, residents of Whitby in Ellesmere Port vetoed plans to be one of two proposed sites for hydrogen village trials out of safety concerns—concerns which were extremely well-founded, I might add, given that hydrogen is the lightest element in the periodic table and notoriously difficult to control. I have two questions. Can the Minister confirm that the residents of Redcar in Teesside will have a similar right of veto? Which other locations are now being considered for these ill-advised hydrogen boiler trials?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Public acceptability is a key component; that is why we ruled out Whitby for the trial. Redcar is the only other location being considered.

Oil and Gas Windfall Tax

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not know where the noble Baroness gets her figures. I responded in my previous answer to the question about investment allowances—policies that the Opposition have called for. The energy profits levy is expected to raise about £26 billion and is set at a rate of 75%, which is one of the highest in the world. I realise that the Labour Party’s policy is to tax firms into extinction, but we need to leave them with some profits. Much of the profits of oil and gas companies goes towards pension funds and other shareholders which many pensioners and others rely on for their income.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the IEA’s report World Energy Outlook 2022 is clear that the solution to the energy trilemma of economic, climate and security issues is to accelerate the move to greener energy. For us in the UK, among other things, that means urgently equipping our workforce with transferable skills for the energy transition. What are the Government doing to make sure that a single offshore energy skills passport that aligns training standards in all offshore energy sectors is introduced?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is essentially right: of course we need to transition to renewable energy sources, and that is exactly what we are doing. The North Sea transition deal between the Government and North Sea companies is helping to move them, as far as the transition is going, to transfer their skills to many of the new industries. For example, many drilling companies operating in the North Sea also drill geothermal heat sources to use for renewable energy. The two things are not mutually incompatible.

Decarbonisation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 13th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I totally understand the point that the noble Lord is making. He highlights the dilemma of carbon-reduction policies in these areas, where we impose carbon taxes and emissions trading systems and schemes, and of course that has an effect on domestic industries that emit a lot of carbon—the so-called carbon leakage problem. We are working closely with the steel industry to try to help it adjust to greener manufacturing methods, and of course it receives free emissions permits.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, recent reports that the Government are considering rowing back on their flagship climate finance commitment of £11.6 billion to assist lower-income countries to reduce their emissions, adapt to climate change and protect the natural environment are to be deplored. Those global benefits affect us all and would be lost to us all. Does the Minister agree that using a proportion of the funds raised through CBAM, the carbon border adjustment mechanism, to support low-carbon transition in least-developed and climate-vulnerable countries would be enlightened self-interest?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is asking me to comment on tax policies and hypothecation of taxes, which are matters in the purview of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I shall make sure her views are communicated to him.

COP 28

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend of course knows this subject very well from his time as Energy Minister and makes an important point. We already have invested massively in renewables. We have the biggest wind sector in Europe by far. We have the first, second and third-largest wind farms in Europe, so we are massively expanding our renewables sector. It makes sense because particularly wind power and solar power are cheap compared to fossil fuel generation, but renewables are intermittent, which is why we will also need our nuclear generation. He draws attention to the scale of the problem we face.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I ask the Minister whether our Government are fully behind the COP 28 declaration to phase out fossil fuels, something that we tried to do at COP 27—not successfully. I assume the answer to that question is yes so, to help realise that aim, will the Government commit to the UK joining the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are committed to phasing out fossil fuels and I outlined in a previous answer the progress we are making. But it is a transition: we have a requirement for fossil fuels during that transition period and have had exchanges about that before. I do not know the details of the declaration that the noble Baroness refers to, but I will certainly have a look at it.

Climate Change Committee: Discussions

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 27th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Climate Change Committee about (1) the impact newly licensed oil and gas infrastructure will have on domestic and global emissions, and (2) the design of their ‘Climate Compatibility Checkpoint’.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government work closely with the Climate Change Committee and are grateful for its expert independent advice. The committee provided advice on 24 February 2022 in relation to both new licensing and the climate compatibility checkpoint; the advice was published on the committee’s website. Officials also had several discussions with the committee throughout the design process for the checkpoint. Its advice was considered in the final design, which has now been published on the GOV.UK website.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the climate compatibility checkpoint, in reference to new oil and gas fields, is, quite frankly, doublethink in Orwellian proportions. Can the Minister confirm that the IEA, the IPCC, the vast bulk of UK scientists and the Government’s own net zero tsar, Chris Skidmore, have all stated that the opening of new fields is incompatible with keeping global warming within the 1.5 degree scenario necessary to protect us and the natural world from catastrophic climate breakdown?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not agree with the noble Baroness. She is dead wrong about these matters. The reality is, whether the Liberal Democrats like it or not, that we get about 75% of our energy from oil and gas. That is declining, and the North Sea is a declining field. Unless she is proposing to tell voters that they should disconnect their gas boilers or not drive their cars anywhere, we have a requirement for oil and gas in the future, albeit for a declining amount. Therefore, the only question is whether we get them from our own fields and employ British workers, paying British taxes, or whether we import them from abroad, which usually has a higher carbon footprint. That is the choice that faces us.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Report stage
Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Flaring and venting is something that I am keen on eliminating, and I will use every opportunity in the House to progress the issue further. Therefore, would it be sensible for the Minister to agree to meet with me and other noble Lords who have expressed an interest in this issue, so that we can talk sensibly about it, going forwards?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I did organise a recent meeting with officials to discuss the issue, at the request of the noble Baroness’s Front-Bench colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. The noble Baroness had the opportunity to attend if she had wished to.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Before the Minister sits down, I will ask him to clarify a couple of things. First, I welcome his statements on decommissioning, but can he confirm whether the safeguarding of decommissioning funds will include all fields, both existing and new? Secondly, can he confirm that it is the FCA that will provide the regulatory oversight for decommissioning funds?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It would depend on what the noble Baroness means by “decommissioning funds”. What would the decommissioning funds be for? In response to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I outlined our intention to ring-fence the CCUS decommissioning funds.

Carbon Budgets: Methane Flaring

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise that eliminating routine methane flaring is a priority. North Sea flaring has halved in the past four years. We have committed to make every effort to ensure that routine flaring from oil and gas fields ends as soon as possible, ahead of the World Bank’s zero routine flaring by 2030 target. Methane emissions are fully accounted for in the UK’s carbon budgets, and the oil and gas sector is on track to deliver against this target.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the figures the Minister has quoted are hotly disputed by the respected journal Energy & Environmental Science. However:

“With natural gas prices at historic highs, gas flaring is an extraordinary waste of economic value … alongside its negative impacts on climate change and human health.”


Those are not my words but the words of the IEA’s recent technology deep dive report into flaring. Why do the Government not just stop this historic madness, follow the Skidmore review recommendation and ban flaring and venting, other than in an emergency situation, as Norway did in 1972?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

These are complicated technological and economic matters. If it were as simple as the noble Baroness makes out, we would do it, but we are working to do it as quickly as possible. The figures that I quoted are from a press release from the North Sea Transition Authority that was issued today—the authority must have seen the noble Baroness’s Question. Flaring is down by 50% since 2018. We must not get this out of proportion; of the UK’s methane emissions, only 1.6% are from the oil and gas sector, compared with the likes of the 49% that come from agriculture.

Domestic Heat Pumps: Budget Underspend

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the reasons for the underspend in the annual £150 million budget to install domestic heat pumps and other low-carbon alternatives to gas boilers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, despite it being a challenging year for the energy sector, provisional data from Ofgem shows that we have received 14,100 applications so far. Industry has reacted positively to the scheme during its first year, with suppliers developing competitive offers alongside the grant. The Government recently launched a targeted marketing campaign to increase public awareness. We will consider options such as increased marketing, as well as keeping grant levels under close review.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. We know that heat pumps are the only show in town today that can deliver low-carbon domestic heating cheaply and quickly. In 2022, a whopping 20 million heat pumps were installed across 16 EU countries, yet our Government fall short time after time in delivering even the basics needed for success, such as home insultation measures, a skilled workforce and improved public awareness. What plan do the Government have to move their woeful current rate of under 10,000 in almost a year on the boiler upgrade scheme to their target of 600,000 a year by 2028? Without a plan, the target is pie in the sky.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness obviously did not listen to the Answer that I gave her, because I just said that we have received 14,100 applications for the scheme. But this is not the only scheme by which heat pumps are installed. There are those that are installed by the private sector, and they are already starting to be installed in many new properties. A range of our other schemes—the social housing decarbonisation fund, home upgrade grant, et cetera—also support the installation of heat pumps.

Methane Emissions

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No, we are not saying that we have done our bit; we are saying that we have an extremely good record that is, as I said, much better than many of our industrialised partners, principally because we have virtually eliminated coal from our energy mix. Because we have done much better, performative-wise, than other countries it makes it more difficult for us to reduce further going forward, but we are committed to doing that. We are committed to working with our partners. Many of these sectors, as has been indicated by the questions, are quite difficult to tackle but we will certainly take a lead in this.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

The International Energy Agency estimates that 72% of methane released from the UK’s oil and gas sector could be abated cost-effectively with existing technologies and practices. Will the Government accept the recommendations of Chris Skidmore’s net-zero review and ban routine flaring and venting by 2025—as the Norwegians did back in 1971?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course, we have received Chris Skidmore’s excellent report only recently, and we are studying its conclusions and recommendations in detail and will respond shortly. As I said, we will do our best to reduce routine flaring and we have a target—but if we can exceed that target, we certainly will.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Committee stage
Monday 16th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Well done to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for avoiding the question.

I thank everyone who has contributed today; it has been a fascinating debate. In the context of the Energy Bill, I think it is the first we have had on the fundamentals of our energy policy, with both sides: those who, in the case of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, seem to want to ban everything, and those who take a more pragmatic view of the issues. I will attempt to set a centre course of a sensible, pragmatic energy policy, which is the one we will follow.

I will address the various amendments, starting with Amendments 224 and 227, tabled by that fascinating pairing: on the one hand my noble friend Lord Moylan and on the other the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. I will also address the contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington.

I begin by stating our fundamental policy of driving down demand for fossil fuels as we transition to our legally binding net-zero economy. Of course, the noble Baroness’s Amendment 227 would have significant ramifications. At a time of global energy crisis, an orderly transition underpinned by oil and gas is the best approach and it is crucial to maintaining our energy security of supply.

Outside the rarefied world that the noble Baroness lives in, Greens in other parts of the world are having to live up to these difficult choices in the real world, in real policy. At the moment, the German Greens are quite hilariously justifying the expansion of a massive new coal mine—producing lignite coal, one of the dirtiest forms of coal—in northern Germany, because of the energy crisis. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, might think it is funny for us all to sit in the cold and dark, relying on unstable sources of power, but the rest of us think that we need to supply this country with the energy it needs. We need to set the country on a net-zero transition, but we need to do it gradually and responsibly. We set this out in the British Energy Security Strategy, where we set out our long-term plan for greater energy security, including references to domestic gas supply. In the Autumn Statement, the Chancellor built on that and set out that the Business and Energy Secretary will publish further details on our energy independence plans in due course, and we will do so.

The North Sea Transition Authority launched the 33rd licensing round on 7 October 2022. This is expected to deliver over 100 new licences, which will put more UK gas on the grid. I repeat: it will not put more gas on the grid—it will put more UK gas on the grid. I have had this debate many times in the Chamber with the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and I still fail to see how she does not think that this is a good idea. In our transition, as we are reducing our demand, it makes sense to have that gas from relatively low carbon-producing sources rather than importing highly polluting, high-carbon fracked gas from other parts of the world.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

So the gas produced from the licences that will be issued in the 33rd round will not be traded on the commodities market—is that what the Minister is saying?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The decision was taken by a different department, by DLUHC, in a quasi-judicial manner. It is likely to be the subject of judicial proceedings, so I cannot comment in detail on that decision, as the noble Lord will understand. I am sure we will be having this debate lots of times in future.

I move on to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. The reasons for the Secretary of State’s decision are set out in full in his published letter on GOV.UK, which takes into account matters like the demand for coal, climate change and the impact on the local economy. To reiterate the point of my noble friend, coking coal is used in the production of steel—it is not used in power generation—which is, of course, crucial to building the infrastructure that we all wish to see more of, such as offshore wind turbines.

On fracking, I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh for her contribution. The Government have been clear that in line with the commitment made in the 2019 Conservative manifesto, it is adopting a presumption against issuing any further hydraulic fracturing consents for the extraction of shale gas. That position is, in effect, a moratorium. This will be maintained until compelling new evidence is provided that addresses the concerns around prediction and management of induced seismicity.

I move on to my noble friend Lord Lilley’s amendment. I welcome his thoughtful contributions to today’s debate, as well of those of my noble friend Lady Altmann. British Standard 5228, which my noble friend quoted, recommends procedures for noise and vibration control in respect of construction and open-site operations. It is not a measure designed to reduce the risk of induced seismicity. The potential for induced seismicity from hydraulic fracturing is a result of the injection of fluid deep underground, at depths of one kilometre or more. Seismicity induced by hydraulic fracturing is therefore different in nature from vibration directly induced by a construction site, and the application of BS 5228 would therefore not be appropriate.

My noble friend Lord Moylan tabled an amendment about the composition of our domestic gas supply. A review of the Gas Safety (Management) Regulations 1996 is currently under way. The Health and Safety Executive has been reviewing these regulations, which govern gas quality, and is consulting on a set of proposed changes. The HSE’s consultation closed in March 2022, and it will be aiming to publish its response in due course. BEIS has worked closely with the HSE and has taken regular opportunities to input into the process in both an analytical and a policy capacity. A statement by the Secretary of State at this stage is therefore unnecessary as the publication of the Government’s formal response will be tantamount to just that. I hope my noble friend will understand that in advance of that document, I cannot comment as it would not be proper.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, tabled two amendments in this group. On Amendment 222A, I should say at the outset that tax matters are an area for the Treasury. Since the introduction of decommissioning relief deeds—DRDs—the Treasury issues a Written Ministerial Statement at the end of each financial year updating on DRDs, including the total number of DRDs in force during the past financial year, past payments under DRDs and the projected value of future payments under ongoing DRD claims. While a DRD claim may arise where a company has defaulted on its decommissioning obligations, the tax system also provides tax relief for decommissioning costs in recognition that decommissioning is a significantly expensive and statutory obligation. HMRC publishes information annually on the estimated sum of all forecast tax relief payments due to decommissioning as part of its annual report and accounts.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his comments on decommissioning. He is unwilling to move further on the amendment, but will he at least commit to writing with the current estimate of the Exchequer costs of decommissioning if prices were to fall to less than $5, in line with Clause 1(3)(c), and to explain how these risks are being managed? I think that would be within scope.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Decommissioning relief deeds are private contracts between the Treasury and the relevant company. That is a matter for the Treasury. I cannot give a commitment on behalf of the Treasury. I suspect that the best option would be for the noble Baroness to take it up with Treasury Ministers.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I hope the Minister will not mind me pressing on this issue. I am not asking for anything commercially secret but just for some assurance, which I think the PAC and the NAO have sought, that the Government have a handle on the liability and risks which they are potentially exposing taxpayers to in the future.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, the noble Baroness should take this matter up with the Treasury. I cannot give commitments on its behalf. I do not know the details. I have set out the position on DRDs. As far as I am aware, this is not tax or revenue legislation. I suggest that the noble Baroness take this up with a Treasury Minister.

I move on to Amendment 227AA on the prohibition of flaring. The Government are already taking steps to drive down routine flaring and the similar practice of venting. The UK has committed to the World Bank’s Zero Routine Flaring by 2030 initiative, and we are working with regulators towards eliminating this practice as soon as possible. Through the North Sea transition deal, industry has committed to accelerating compliance with the World Bank initiative ahead of 2030. We are making good progress: in 2021, total flared gas and vented gas reduced by 20% and 22% respectively, relative to 2020. Furthermore, the North Sea Transition Authority, as the lead regulator on these matters, expects all new developments to be planned and developed on the basis of zero routine flaring and venting.

With the explanations on these various points, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I thank the Minister, but I have to say that I am not hugely satisfied with the responses on decommissioning tax reliefs. I take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, about stranded assets and who will pick up the risk. In a scenario where, say, Shell decides that a particular field has become uneconomic for it to exploit commercially and decides to sell on that asset, which is then picked up by another entity which, in turn, goes bust, who will pick up the cost of that decommissioning? I hope that the Minister will be able to quickly address that.

In terms of flaring, I am really disappointed. It is such a no-brainer. Since 1991, Norway has been able to ban flaring—and, within that, I would include venting—yet our Government cannot give that commitment, when we have made commitments at COP 26 and COP 27 under the Global Methane Pledge, and we continue to do this. It really is on a par with asking countries to ban coal and then giving permission for our own coal mine in Cumbria to go ahead. It is just incomprehensible, and I hope that the Minister can quickly address that before I withdraw my amendment.

Business: Greenwashing

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that we need some consistency on these matters. The work on a green taxonomy is being taken forward by the Treasury and as far as I am aware it is proceeding.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, last year the Advertising Standards Authority ruled that HSBC’s greenwash ads were not adequately qualified and left out material information about its greenhouse gas emissions. Does the Minister agree that a ticking off from the ASA after an ad has gone out is not a deterrent? Will he request the CMA to incorporate this into its green claims code so that financial penalties can be imposed if firms breach the rules repeatedly?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The ASA has taken action against a number of companies, including one that made green artificial grass, over their environmental claims. I think this is a very real deterrent to businesses repeating unfair advertising, but I know that the CMA is looking at a number of different sectors: it has already published an investigation into the fashion sector and is moving its investigations on to other areas of the economy as well.

Electricity: Decarbonisation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 21st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of my friend the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are confident that the policies and programmes set out in the net-zero strategy and the British energy security strategy will deliver our ambition to decarbonise electricity generation in line with net zero while enhancing security of supply and keeping energy affordable.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and will now read the supplementary question from the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. The fundamental problem is that we are not building anywhere near enough low-carbon energy capacity or grid infrastructure to allow us to meet the 2035 target. One of the priority recommendations of the Climate Change Committee’s 2022 progress report is that we need a delivery plan to provide visibility and confidence for private sector investors to reduce costs and to build up supply chains. There is a key gap here, in comparison with other sectors, because, while we have the heat and building strategy and the transport decarbonisation plan, we do not have a plan for electricity decarbonisation, despite it being so important as an enabler for those other plans. Does the Minister agree that it needs urgently to be brought forward?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We will be setting out further plans on the matter in due course. I remind the noble Baroness that, during 2021, almost 55% of electricity generated in the UK came from low-carbon sources. We have an ambitious target of rolling out 50 gigawatts of offshore wind by 2030, and we have an excellent record in this area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Could I ask the Minister what estimate his Government or department have made of the additional costs to communities of their inefficient energy policies?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, but I really did not catch most of what her question was.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I rise in support of Amendments 117, 118 and 122. If we are to move towards cleaning up heat, we really need to get on with it and put sensible deadlines in place rather than leaving it open-ended, as it currently stands in the Bill.

Amendment 118 tightens up what needs to happen by when and makes some very sensible suggestions on timeframes for

“the banning of the installation of unabated gas boilers in new properties from March 2025 … the banning of the sale and installation of unabated gas boilers in all properties after March 2035.”

We need to get on with this. I support the amendment wholeheartedly.

Likewise, Amendment 122 would introduce a deadline

“to include the number of heat pumps in the latest figures on recommendations from the CCC.”

On Amendment 121, like the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, I add my note of caution about reliance on hydrogen. It is an unproven technology. There are ample studies and research that point to there being substantial barriers before it can be delivered at a low enough cost. Not least, there are technical difficulties: we know that the existing pipelines will not be suitable. So it will not be a straightforward case of replacing a natural gas boiler with a hydrogen or blend boiler. There are far greater changes that need to be made to the whole infrastructure before deployment.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I will start with my Amendments 123 and 124. Amendment 123 seeks to provide additional clarity to Clause 100. Clause 100(1) provides examples of how targets for a low-carbon heat scheme may be set. The amendment’s addition of proposed new subsection (2A) clarifies that an average appliance efficiency or emissions intensity target could apply to all of a given manufacturer’s heating appliances sold in the UK, whether or not they were sold or installed by the manufacturer itself. This had been explicit in one of the examples in the list in subsection (1) but not in others. The Government believe that it is prudent to make this explicit and it provides additional clarity.

The Government have tabled Amendment 124 purely to correct a minor drafting error in Clause 100(4), replacing “activity” with “appliance” so that the subsection has its intended meaning.

Moving on to the amendments tabled by other noble Lords, I will start with Amendment 117 from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. The Government have always been clear that they intend to introduce the low-carbon heat scheme provided for by this chapter in very short order; namely, from 2024. However, it is the Government’s view that it would not be appropriate to incorporate a timeline into the Bill. If the noble Baroness will take my word for it, we intend to get on with this fairly quickly. It is important that the legislation retains the opportunity, if necessary, to respond to any unforeseen changes in market conditions, et cetera, and to ensure that the necessary administrative and enforcement systems are established. We are indeed looking at the appropriate enforcement mechanism at the moment.

I turn to Amendment 118, the first of four in this group in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, for her contribution. This amendment would require there to be a link between the introduction of a low-carbon heat scheme and a ban on the installation of gas boilers in new-build and existing properties respectively.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Government will introduce a future homes standard in 2025, which will effectively require that new properties are equipped with low-carbon heating and high energy efficiency, avoiding the need for future retrofitting. New properties would be taken care of in that respect. It would be premature to decide exactly what policy approaches will be best suited to implement the phase-out of natural gas boilers in existing properties.

I do not believe that it is helpful to create a dependency between the ability to launch a scheme on the one hand and a particular, separate measure such as an appliance ban, as the amendment proposes, on the other. That would risk delaying the introduction of such a scheme altogether.

On Amendment 119, the Government have been clear that a range of low-carbon technologies are likely to play a role in decarbonising heating. District heat networks have an important role to play in all future heating scenarios, as do electric heat pumps. Work is ongoing with industry, regulators and others to assess the feasibility, costs and benefits of converting gas networks to supply 100% hydrogen for heating. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, said, it is indeed a considerable challenge, but we need to do the studies to work out whether it is feasible. Of course, other technologies may also play a supporting role.

To establish whether or not it is a feasible technology, the Government have an extensive programme of work already under way to develop the strategic and policy options for all these technologies and for different building segments. Another plan, seeking restrictively to prescribe the right solution for all properties now and out to 2050, is not particularly necessary or helpful.

I thank my noble friend Lord Naseby for his contribution on Amendment 121. This amendment would expand the potential set of low-carbon heating appliances that could be supported by a scheme established under the power in this chapter. However, I emphasise that the set of potential relevant low-carbon heating appliances established in this clause is solely for the purposes of a scheme under this power. It does not in any way serve as a comprehensive statement of all potential low-carbon heating appliances, and it has no wider bearing on what could be considered low-carbon heating appliances in any other policies, schemes or legislation.

The Government recognise that low-carbon hydrogen could be one of a few key options for decarbonising heat in buildings. To that end, the Government are working to enable strategic decisions in 2026 on the role of hydrogen in heat decarbonisation; I note the scepticism of a number of noble Members about this. The Government will bring forward the necessary policies and schemes to support the deployment of hydrogen heating, depending on the outcome of these decisions. We will also shortly consult on the option of requiring that all domestic gas boilers are hydrogen-ready from 2026. Since the scheme provided for by this measure would not be suitable or necessary to support the rollout of hydrogen-using or hydrogen-ready heating appliances, it would not be helpful to expand the scope of the power in this way.

Finally, Amendment 122 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, would require that three specific targets be incorporated into regulations for a low-carbon heat scheme. Again, the Government believe that targets are best set and adjusted in the scheme regulations, based on an assessment of the market conditions at the time, rather than in the enabling legislation in advance.

I turn to the specific targets that the noble Lord proposed. I have said a number of times that the Government’s ambition is to develop the market towards 600,000 heat pump installations per year in 2028. That is what we assess to be a scale necessary for and compatible with all strategic scenarios for decarbonising heating by 2050. Although the Government have clear plans to support industry to build a thriving manufacturing sector for heat pumps in the UK, we do not believe that a production quota is an appropriate way to achieve this.

In the light of what I have been able to say, particularly on the consultation, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will agree to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, on this—but could I ask the Minister a separate point about how the trials will be carried out? The Minister said they were going to provide evidence. I want to ask how long the trials will last. One of the issues with hydrogen, if I understand it, is its impact on the pipes that carry the gas to the boilers, et cetera. Those pipes perish in time, because the hydrogen makes them brittle in a way that natural gas does not. Of course, that will lead to cracks and leakages. Will the trial take place over a long enough period to see whether that is indeed the case and what the jeopardy from those pipes might be?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Let me reiterate once again. Noble Lords are getting involved in the detail of what these trials will comprise—timescales, consumer protections, et cetera. This Bill is about giving the Secretary of State the powers to make the regulations, which will then come back this House, when I am sure that we will have a massively long and involved discussion about all these precise and important details—but this Bill is not the place.

Energy Security

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing the Statement to the House. I of course also welcome the return of the Energy Bill.

I will start with nuclear, and the Government’s generosity with British taxpayers’ money in rebooting Sizewell C. I understand that common sense has prevailed: reports are circulating that China General Nuclear has been bought out. Can the Minister confirm that that has in fact already happened, and is not just an aspiration? Can he also comment on a recent article in the New Civil Engineer about fears of an 11-year delay to Hinkley Point C, on the back of news of a new contract between the Government and EDF, stipulating that Hinkley C will still be funded even if it does not start operating until 2036? If this were to be the case it would not be surprising, since no nuclear reactor has ever been built on time or on budget.

Finally on nuclear, the Secretary of State in his Statement cites it as a key plank in our bid for energy sovereignty. Can the Minister say where the raw uranium fuel for nuclear power generation originates from? The last time I looked, we do not mine any of it in the UK. I hope the Minister will agree that nuclear cannot be said to be the indigenous energy we need in the same way that energy farmed from our sun, wind and waves undoubtedly is.

Intermittency concerns about energy from renewables are often cited as a reason why nuclear is necessary. However, those concerns have been comprehensively debunked. There are many, much cheaper answers to intermittency if the Government were but minded to invest in them seriously. Energy storage is an example, including in the form of green hydrogen generated from the excess wind power that the grid is unable to harness in real time. There is also pumped hydro, more solar and onshore wind geographically spread out, marine energy, smart energy and demand management et cetera.

I have not even mentioned interconnectors. Can the Minister outline the Government’s view on the Morocco-UK interconnector power project? A project that is expected to provide low-cost, clean energy to more than 7 million UK homes by the end of 2030 with no taxpayer inputs and create 1,350 permanent jobs in the UK is surely worth a mention in any government energy Statement in 2022.

Moving on to fossil fuels, why do the Government persist in preferential treatment for the fossil fuel sector, for example, through subsidies? The OECD reports UK subsidies in 2021 of £200 million on decommissioning, £250 million on oil and gas investment, £1 billion on fuel oil, £1.5 billion on ring-fenced oil and gas trade corporate income tax relief and £2.1 billion on red diesel fuel. That is £5 billion of subsidies, which is unjustifiable.

On investment allowances, I agree with every word that the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, said. In the windfall tax paid by oil and gas extractors, they benefit from an investment allowance. However, no equivalent relief is available for renewable energy generators. This is nothing short of outrageous and will disincentivise investment in that sector.

Finally, on decommissioning, the subsidy regime may be even more costly than the £200 million reported by the OECD, because decommissioning relief deeds risk leaving taxpayers paying out to companies which never made a contribution to the Exchequer. That is madness. Can the Minister say to what extent the Exchequer is exposed to these types of deed? Currently we have no visibility of the assumptions behind those deeds or the liability that might result from them.

In conclusion, a Government who produce a Statement on energy needs which does not give immediate full-throttle support and investment impetus to energy efficiency of the built sector, on-ground solar, onshore wind and community energy projects are a Government who do not get the urgency of the situation the planet faces. The lack of ambition on energy saving is breathtaking. These are the low-hanging fruit which can do so much to wean us off expensive and immoral payments to the Russian pariah state as well as other unstable regions of the world. The Government could and should have done much more on these easy wins if they are serious about energy sovereignty. I am sure that many of these things will come up in the Energy Bill that we will debate next week.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, for their questions. I will start with nuclear, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and Labour for their support for it. The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the Liberal Democrats are absolutely wrong on this. The idea that we can satisfy all of our baseload capacity from a little bit of pumped hydro storage, a few batteries and a bit of hydrogen is nonsensical, I am afraid. If the Liberal Democrats are serious about ever being in government, they need to seriously address these issues of how to provide long-term energy security. I am afraid that, at the moment, nuclear is the only carbon-free option that will do so at scale. The option that the noble Baroness talks about produces puny amounts of power.

In the British Energy Security Strategy, we provided a clear, long-term plan to accelerate our energy transition towards net zero and away from fossil fuel prices set by global markets beyond our control, and we are making serious progress towards that. We have more offshore wind than the rest of Europe put together; we have the second-largest offshore wind sector in the world, and the contracts for difference scheme has made a massive difference. I get that the Opposition think we should go even further and even faster, and we are expanding our ambition, but the turbines are being rolled out at a rate of many hundreds a year, and there are a number of supply chain limits. I assure the noble Lord that we will continue to roll them out because, at the moment, it is the cheapest form of generation—albeit intermittent, and we therefore need to provide back-up power for it.

That is why the investment in nuclear was announced. We are confirming the first state backing for a nuclear project in over 30 years, with a £679 million investment to support the UK on our journey to greater energy freedom. We are taking a 50% stake in the project’s development, with EDF. Sizewell C is set to generate reliable and clean homegrown electricity for 6 million UK homes, but it will of course also deliver thousands of high-value jobs in East Anglia and nationwide. We are also working hard to set up Great British Nuclear with support from the industry and our expert adviser, Simon Bowen. Great British Nuclear will aim to develop a resilient pipeline of new-build projects, supporting them through every stage of development. There are a number of exciting developments, such as small modular reactors, which will come on stream in a few years’ time.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do recall the Question from the noble Baroness. We do not have precise data on how many digital advertising screens there are in the country and what energy they might be using. I do not think we want to get into micromanaging people’s energy consumption to that extent. We do not want the whole country to be in darkness, and there will be some important display screens that provide key information for people—so getting into heavy-handed government dictating to companies when they can switch their advertising screens on or off might be a policy beloved of the top-down, controlling Greens, but I do not think it is a practical solution.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, if there is time I would like to ask another question and put the record straight on what I said about energy efficiency. I am fully aware that the Statement mentions energy efficiency, but I was referring to the lack of ambition the Government are showing. I think 15% by 2030 is really not good enough. We need to do so much better, and it is so easy to do so much better that it really is a missed opportunity.

Secondly, I want to talk about the interconnector from Morocco to the UK. The 3.8 gigawatts of energy it will generate is not an insignificant amount. It could help enormously with intermittency. The Minister mentioned the length of the cable that will be required. It will be immensely long, but the good news is that that cable will be manufactured in the UK, in Hunterston in Scotland, Port Talbot in Wales and parts of the north-east of England—so it is a good news story all round and I hope the Government will give it their full support.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I think I said in response to the noble Baroness’s earlier question that I welcome this fantastic project and wish the developers well in producing it, particularly as I believe that it can be built without taxpayer support, so we should welcome it even more—and of course we will do everything we can to support such a fantastic achievement. If it can be built, it will produce a very useful contribution to the UK’s energy security.

I have to disagree with the noble Baroness, who does not think a target of 15% by 2030 is enough. I can assure her, looking at the analysis of it, that it is an extremely ambitious target. It will require a huge amount of resource to be put into the sector, both public and private, in order to achieve such a target—but if you do not reach for the stars you will never make it, and it is important that we set an ambitious target. We will do all we can to achieve it.

I said in my initial answer that we are spending £6.6 billion on energy efficiency schemes in this Parliament; the Chancellor committed another £6 billion for 2025 to 2028. We are also consulting on the £1 billion ECO+ scheme. We are doing an awful lot in the energy efficiency space and the answer will actually not be in total cash resources, but in the building up of the supply chain, which is constrained in many aspects at the moment. That is what is providing me with food for thought: to make sure that we actually have the resources on the ground, in terms of materials and personnel, to implement all these ambitious schemes.

Energy Supplies

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to agree with my noble friend that energy from waste is an excellent production technique. There are many successful energy-from-waste projects; it is another technology that will make a contribution to our energy supply.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, a short while ago in the Commons, the Prime Minister stated that fracking would go ahead only where there was community support, and the Minister has just corroborated that. Can he categorically state that community support will be gauged neither by the fracking companies themselves, of which there is a rumour, nor by Jacob Rees-Mogg’s department, given the debacle of his consultation on imperial measurements, in which “no” was not an option?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to hear from the noble Baroness the great news that the Prime Minister agrees with me and has said the same thing, which is always good for a Minister to hear. However, the reality is that the issuing of hydraulic fracturing consents is a matter for BEIS and the Secretary of State for BEIS.

Prepayment Meters: Pricing

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very important point. Obviously, we are doing everything we can to make sure that there are no blackouts, but if that very unlikely eventuality comes to pass, of course we will want to do all we can to make sure that the most vulnerable are protected.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister will agree that although the situation now with the differential is not as extreme as it used to be, we could easily go back to a situation in which those on prepayment meters will be paying the highest tariff. If the Government were minded to, they could easily remedy the situation; for example, simply by removing the ability of Ofgem to set differential rates for people with prepayment meters. If they did that, that would sort the problem. Does the Minister agree that this would do the job and would get rid of the injustice whereby the poorest are being asked to pay the most?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I refer the noble Baroness to the Answer I gave earlier: using a prepayment meter is not the most expensive way, and many customers choose to do it for their convenience. The licensing conditions for Ofgem reflect the cost of serving different groups of customers. Of course, we keep these matters under review, but if we equalised it, then those paying by direct debit—often those who are fuel poor as well; there is a higher percentage of customers on that level —would end up paying more. There are no easy answers to this.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

First, let me thank all noble Lords for their contributions to what I think has been an excellent, important and constructive debate. I will attempt to answer as many of the questions asked as possible, and of course, I look forward to debating many of these issues further as the Bill proceeds through Committee.

One of the most pressing issues facing many hard-working households and businesses today is the cost of living, particularly the cost of energy. Unsurprisingly, many noble Lords—including the noble Baronesses, Lady Blake and Lady Hayman, and my noble friend Lord Howell—asked how the Bill will address this issue. The Government are acting now to protect households from the full impact of rising prices with a package of financial support worth £37 billion.

However, the cost of living crisis is not just about providing support today. It is also about ensuring that we have an energy system that is affordable for many years to come. This Bill will create a more cost-efficient energy system by increasing innovation and competition, for example by introducing competition in onshore electricity networks and attracting investment in a strong, low-carbon energy sector. The Bill will also help to reduce our exposure to volatile gas prices.

My noble friends Lord Moylan and Lord Howell and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, touched on the important issue of energy security. It is an absolute priority for this Government. Thankfully, Britain benefits from highly diverse and flexible sources of gas supply and a diverse electricity energy mix, which ensures that households, businesses and heavy industry can get the energy they need. I am happy to confirm that the UK is in no way dependent on Russian gas. We have highly diverse sources of gas supply, providing us with one of the largest liquified natural gas import infrastructures in Europe, for which, I am happy to say, the EU is particularly grateful at the moment, as we support it. Natural gas has an important ongoing role to play in future as the UK decarbonises its energy system. However, how natural gas is used will need to change to eliminate the CO₂ associated with burning it.

In response to my noble friend Lord Moylan, affordability is of course absolutely key to delivering on our energy strategy. The value for money of the measures that we introduce is completely critical.

As many noble Lords have noted, this is a wide-ranging Bill. I welcome the many questions that were asked in the debate about the wider energy sector; most of them do not necessarily relate to the Bill but I will nevertheless attempt to address them anyway.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Blake and Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Whitty, raised the knotty subject of energy efficiency, which we have debated long and hard in this House. Let me say at the start that huge progress is already being made on the energy efficiency of UK homes. We are investing more than £.6.6 billion over this Parliament to improve energy efficiency. However, cost of living pressures mean that now is not the right time to bring in additional requirements for home owners regarding further regulations on minimum energy efficiency standards. However, we will bring forward measures at a more appropriate time.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, asked if the Government will introduce windfall taxes back into the oil and gas industry. The energy profits levy will raise around £5 billion in its first 12 months, which will go towards supporting people with the new cost of living measures announced by the previous Chancellor.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about the programme of policy statements and secondary legislation. To implement the commitments in this Bill we will of course publish policy statements for the Lords Committee stage, helping your Lordships to understand the intention of the regulation-making powers in the Bill and the next steps which will follow that.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, asked about onshore wind. On consultation, we are going to introduce a clear route which enables local communities and authorities to work together to signal their support for onshore wind and for onshore wind developers to respond quickly to this. On planning guidance, while we will not introduce wholesale changes to current planning regulations for onshore wind in England, we have committed to developing local partnerships for a limited number of supportive communities which wish to host new onshore wind infrastructure in return for appropriate benefits, including, for example, lower energy bills.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh all spoke about community energy. Through the introduction of UK-wide growth funding schemes, the Government are enabling local areas to tackle net-zero goals in ways that best suit their particular community needs.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, asked if there would be enough electric vehicle charging points. We are committed to ensuring that an inclusively designed EV charging network is available that works for all consumers.

My noble friend Lord Moylan asked what will take up the slack when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining, which is an important question. The Government’s long-term ambition is to increase our plans for the deployment of civil nuclear power up to 24 gigawatts by 2050, which would be around 25% of our projected 2050 electricity demand.

The noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about the use of waste for energy. I can inform both that the forthcoming biomass strategy will consider evidence on the likely support for and sustainability of biomass feedstocks and the best use of biomass across the economy to help us achieve net zero.

I turn to some of the points made about measures in the Bill, starting with pillar 1. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, mentioned the cost and viability of heat pumps—a matter dear to my own heart. With the low-carbon heat scheme and other policies, we are confident that the instalment cost of heat pumps will come down significantly over the coming years as the market scales up, making heat pumps an increasingly attractive and affordable option for more and more UK households.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, also questioned whether hydrogen was the appropriate technology for heating homes. Indeed, that is a very good question to pose. It has the potential to make a contribution to fully decarbonising heat by offering consumers a future heating option that works in a very similar way to natural gas, but without the carbon emissions. However, it is important to point out that hydrogen for heat is not yet an established technology. Much further work is required to assess the feasibility, costs and potential benefits. As part of that, a neighbourhood trial will start next year, with a hydrogen village expected to go live in 2025. This is all part of the plan to work out the feasibility of the wide scale use of hydrogen for home heating.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, all questioned whether CCS was an appropriate technology for the UK. The Climate Change Committee has described carbon capture usage and storage—CCUS—as

“a necessity, not an option”

for the transition to net zero, which will enable the UK to deliver upon its global climate commitments. Contrary to what some noble Lords said, CCUS is a proven technology with CCUS projects operating safely globally, in countries such as Norway, the US and Canada. CO₂ storage is a mature and safe technology.

The noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Whitty, spoke of the need to accelerate CCUS delivery and have a clear deployment plan. I agree with them; we remain committed to industrial decarbonisation across all nations and regions of the UK. As we work towards net zero, we are clear that CCUS will continue to play a key role in the process. In April 2022, the British Energy Security Strategy restated our commitment to support the deployment of four CCUS clusters by 2030. Following on from a process to select the first CCUS track 1 clusters to be deployed by the mid-2020s, we intend to bring forth further details on the outcome of phase 2 emitter projects in due course.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, asked about the hydrogen levy. The detailed design of the levy is ongoing, including decisions on where it will be placed in the energy value chain. The levy design will reflect wider government priorities and policies to ensure that consumer energy bills are, of course, affordable and that the costs are distributed fairly. We anticipate some public engagement on options for the detailed levy design in early 2023.

I move on to some points that were raised on pillar 2 of the Bill. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, and the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, for their positive stance on the independent system operator. We are also seeing that across the energy sector. I was asked about the timeline for implementation. BEIS and Ofgem are currently working with National Grid and the electricity system operator on the next steps. Depending on several factors, including the passage of legislation and continued discussion with key parties, the ISOP could be established by or in 2024.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about the interaction with Ofgem and National Grid. The Bill actually provides a power to set out a strategy and policy statement for the ISOP; that is where the Secretary of State will set out their direction for Ofgem and ISOP. The Bill also provides for Ofgem to license and regulate the ISOP, overseeing its activities in its capacity as the independent regulator.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh raised the important point about why heat network customers do not get protection equal to that of gas and electricity consumers. That is because heat networks typically buy their energy through commercial contracts, which are not covered by the existing default tariff price cap. However, I am pleased to confirm to my noble friend that the legislation provides the BEIS Secretary of State with powers to introduce a price cap, should it be necessary to protect consumers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, asked whether the Bill provides the overhaul needed for the heat networks sector. I very much believe that it does. To address her points on poor design and maintenance, about which I agree, the Bill will include minimum technical standards. It will also introduce powers to regulate decarbonisation; as mentioned, it will also enable powers to set price caps.

The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, asked whether zoning, which will of course be run by local authorities as the most appropriate bodies, can be extended beyond heat networks. Our strategic approach in the Heat and Buildings Strategy follows, in our view, the grain of the market. Our policy levers are aligned to certain points of action; for example, when people are replacing their heating systems. Extending zoning to other technologies in our view risks removing choice for households and businesses when consumer choice over heating technology will be best for the transition.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, asked about the effectiveness of the price cap. That is a valid question. The price cap remains, of course, a temporary measure until competition in the market improves. BEIS is currently considering what reforms are needed for energy retail market regulation to ensure that the market is resilient and sustainable and continues to protect consumers.

On the points raised that come under pillar 3 of the Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, asked for more detail on the nuclear decommissioning measures. The proposals do not result in any relaxation in the standards for public protection. Former nuclear sites will continue to be regulated by the relevant environmental agency and the Health and Safety Executive, rather than the Office for Nuclear Regulation, which will regulate health and safety at work activities. She also questioned the reach of the Bill’s core fuel resilience powers. These measures, also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, are intended to be used in a light-touch way to complement the additional voluntary approach. The Government will use these powers in a proportionate way, including providing for certain rights of appeal and consultation requirements.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, raised a question in relation to the disposal of nuclear waste. The Bill makes provision in relation to geological disposal facilities which will encapsulate and isolate radioactive waste at great depths. Nuclear Waste Services, the developer of the geological disposal facility, is confident it can meet the additional requirements from new nuclear as set out in the British Energy Security Strategy.

Moving to the point raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Jones, in their double act, about dumping radioactive waste in the sea, of course, disposal of radioactive waste in the sea is banned by international conventions and let me be absolutely clear that no part of a geological disposal facility will be in the sea. The waste will be isolated deep underground, within multiple barriers, to ensure that no harmful quantities of radioactivity reach anywhere near the surface environment.

My noble friend Lord Howell and the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, both asked about small modular reactors. Through the nuclear fund, we are providing funding to support research and development for a small modular reactor design and we are progressing plans to build an advanced modular reactor demonstration by the early 2030s at the latest.

The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, asked whether the Government could make sure that nuclear power is eligible for the renewable transport fuel obligation, including hydrogen produced from nuclear power. I know this is something we have had exchanges on in the past. We believe this would be complex and would require firmer, further evidence for industry to understand how exactly it might be compatible with wider RTFO eligibility criteria.

I welcome my noble friend Lord Moylan’s support for the promotion of nuclear fusion, and I also welcome the support from the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, for the continuation of North Sea oil and gas production. Perhaps he would like to have a word with his noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, about this important point, although I welcome her confirmation that she is now apparently in favour of gas as a continuity fuel. My point, which I keep making to the noble Baroness, is that since we produce only about 40% of our own gas in the North Sea and we still import considerable quantities of LNG to be used as a transition fuel, it makes eminent good sense, in my view, to obtain those reserves from our own resources in the North Sea, which of course is of much lower carbon intensity than LNG. I am sure we will continue to have these debates going forward.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Will the Minister address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, as well as by me, that the gas we produce in the North Sea no longer belongs to us? It is a global commodity and has to be traded as a global commodity.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is produced by private sector companies under regulation, and there are interconnectors connecting us to the continent. I am sure that the noble Baroness would want us to support the EU in its time of need at the moment. With our energy terminals, those interconnectors play a crucial role in helping our EU friends with their current difficulties. It is of course a global commodity and the price is set globally. However, if the noble Baroness’s question is about carbon intensity, the carbon intensity of domestically produced resources is much lower than imported LNG. As I have pointed out a number of times before, I fail to see why it is, in her view, more sensible to import gas through LNG rather than getting it from our own North Sea resources. I am sure we will have that debate many times again in future.

Finally, I will deal with the challenge from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, regarding smart meters. I can tell the noble Lord that we have now installed 27 million smart meters in the UK, and the vast majority of SMETS1 meters have now been upgraded with software upgrades to SMETS2 standards, so that they operate exactly the same as SMETS2 meters and provide full smart meter functionality. Only this morning, I met the DCC to review the progress on that upgrade and was told that the number of meters still to be migrated is tiny—a few tens of thousands of early meters that the DCC will continue to attempt to migrate; if that does not work, they eventually may be upgraded to full SMETS2 meters.

I have addressed most of the points raised by noble Lords. I am sure that noble Lords will say if I have not covered all their points, but we will debate these matters further in Committee. Many of the points made were things that noble Peers would like to see happen separately and outside the provisions in the Bill. However, I think that most of the measures received a wide degree of support in your Lordships’ House. I look forward to continuing this constructive engagement and detailed scrutiny as the Bill progresses through Committee.

International Energy Agency Report

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

To respond to that point would take longer than I have for this answer, but I disagree with the noble Baroness—although I have great respect for her—that biomass is not renewable. This has been studied at great length, and supporting Drax and other power stations to move to renewable sources of power with waste wood is an environmentally responsible thing to do, in our view. The energy pathway for that is audited.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, in response to my Written Question of 24 March about government plans to encourage people to turn their thermostats down, the Minister referred me to the Met Office’s WeatherReady campaign. This turns out to be a web page to help people prepare for severe-weather measures, such as putting on sunscreen and drinking more fluids. Therefore, let me put the question a different way: when will the Government launch a full-throttled campaign asking the British public to turn down either the heating or the air conditioning? This will save money, end once and for all our import of Russian gas, show support for Ukraine and reduce greenhouse gases—everything the Government say they want to achieve.

Behaviour Change for Net Zero

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 31st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point. Indeed, we are doing just that. I mentioned earlier that we have something like £7 billion-worth of support through some of the schemes I mentioned, including the social housing decarbonisation fund, the home upgrade grant and the local authority delivery scheme. All of those are focused on helping those on the lowest incomes in society to insulate their homes to reduce their energy bills.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, can I confirm that the Minister just said that the Government were not open to carrying out a consultation on behavioural change strategy with respect to climate change? If that is the case, it is really quite sad, because businesses are trying to lead the way, but they cannot reap the full benefit of their actions without a clear lead from government.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Government are providing a clear lead. We were one of the first countries in the world to legislate for net zero; we have provided a number of different strategy documents, pointing the way, across a whole range of sectors, to how we can meet net zero, and we are working very closely with business. We are delighted to see that so many different international companies have signed up to our net- zero pledges. We will continue to work with them and continue to encourage people to make greener choices.

COP 26

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 28th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Clearly, Brazil signed up to the declaration at COP 26 along with 140 other countries covering over 90% of the world’s forest. It is important for us to continue working with Brazil and countries representing some 75% of trade in agricultural commodities to try to move those countries’ trade towards more sustainable means.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the IPCC estimates that spending on adaptation needs to reach $127 billion per year for developing countries by 2030, but at the moment adaptation spend accounts for just a fraction of that, and for just 4.8% of tracked climate finance. Do the Government accept that spending on adaptation and mitigation needs to be equal? If so, is that something which will be achieved during our year of the COP presidency?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Clearly, we are working with other like-minded countries to try to deliver the maximum resources possible for developing countries to help them to adapt to the effects. I am very proud of our contribution of £11.6 billion of international climate finance over this five-year period.

Gazprom Energy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 24th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure what point the noble Lord is trying to make here. We are not pursuing a war on the Russian people; many Russian individuals are just as opposed to this war as we are. We have a constantly evolving round of sanctions—the Foreign Secretary announced another 65 sanctioning proposals this morning—and some 1,000 individuals and businesses have been sanctioned. However, we have to be careful to differentiate between Russian state entities, those linked to Putin, and perfectly legitimate Russian individuals.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the Government have said that Gazprom has been sanctioned and will no longer be able to issue debt or equity in the UK. Can the Minister say what that means? The British people want to be sure that no money from Gazprom is going to the Russian state to finance its vendetta against the Ukrainian people. Can the Minister categorically state that that is happening?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, it is difficult for me at this stage to comment on individual cases. However, we keep the whole sanctioning regime under constant review and new rounds of sanctions are constantly announced. It is difficult in this case because of the large numbers of essential businesses, schools, hospitals, et cetera that have contracts with Gazprom UK, but we will keep these matters under review.

Russian Oil and Gas Imports

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We have a very ambitious hydrogen strategy and it is perfectly possible that hydrogen will be one element of our campaign to decarbonise the UK economy. We will shortly be moving towards a hydrogen business model and we will attempt to roll out hydrogen production. However, again, no decisions are imminent, and it will be a few years before we know the full potential that hydrogen can offer.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, Germany has announced a £222 billion plan to transform its economy between now and 2026. Central to that is to wean itself off fossil fuels fast. Where is our big plan for immediate climate-compatible action?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not think the noble Baroness is quoting a very good example. The Germans have made a singular mess of much of their policies by phasing out nuclear power, which has resulted in the burning of much more coal. I am not sure that that is an example of what the noble Baroness wants us to follow. We have an excellent plan in this country. We have a much bigger renewable sector than Germany, which puts far too much reliance on gas from Russia and now may well be paying the consequences.

Global Warming

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the finding by the Mauna Loa Observatory that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere reached 419 parts per million in May 2021, what advice they have received from their Chief Scientific Adviser about the implications of global warming for the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

Her Majesty’s Government and advice from their Chief Scientific Adviser are informed by the latest scientific evidence as presented by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The panel’s report set out how, as carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere rise, global temperatures are also expected to rise, with severe impacts globally. Risks to the UK are assessed in the UK’s climate change risk assessments, which are informed by the Climate Change Committee’s independent assessments.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. The figure of 419 parts per million is the highest ever recorded over the last 800,000 years and it is a direct indicator, based on hard science, of a rapidly changing climate and consequent irreversible damage to our ecosystems. The BBC reports that in January 2020 some hard science was presented to the Prime Minister in the form of a slide show at a teach-in organised by Sir Patrick Vallance and led by Professor Stephen Belcher of the Met Office. It is said to have convinced the Prime Minister to take climate change seriously and that must mean keeping fossil fuels in the ground. Was the Minister present and will he ask for a similar teach-in for all government departments?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No, I was not present, but we have regular meetings with all the advisers who inform government policy on this matter. I know the noble Baroness has a strong view about “leaving fossil fuels in the ground”, but we require gas as a transition fuel. In the context of the recent crisis in Ukraine, surely even the noble Baroness can see the logic of obtaining that transitional fuel from UK sources.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I think we discussed this earlier. I am really not sure of the point the noble Lord is trying to make.

Amendments 12 and 29, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Boycott and Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would prevent subsidies that would relieve their beneficiaries from their liabilities as a polluter. Provision already exists in the Bill to protect the “polluter pays” principle for any subsidy in relation to energy and environment. Principle B in Schedule 2 sets this out explicitly:

“Subsidies in relation to energy and environment shall not relieve the beneficiary from liabilities arising from its responsibilities as a polluter under the law of England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland.”


Clause 13(3)(b) ensures that a public authority

“must not make the scheme unless it is of the view that the subsidies provided for by the scheme will be consistent with those principles.”

As I have previously set out, it is right that the provisions in the “polluter pays” principle apply only where they are relevant. That principle has long-standing foundations in UK law—including, most recently, in the provisions of the Environment Act 2021, which I also covered earlier.

Amendment 33 would prohibit subsidies for fossil fuels, including those subsidies that fall within the definition used by the IMF for fossil fuel subsidies. This would include subsidies for fossil fuel development and for the construction of new unmitigated fossil fuel-powered electricity generation, either in the UK or abroad. The principles in Schedule 2 to the Bill will help ensure that energy and environment subsidies contribute to optimal outcomes for UK citizens, recognising the importance of a secure, affordable and sustainable energy system and increasing levels of environmental protection.

I am fully in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, that inefficient fossil fuel subsidies encourage wasteful consumption, reduce our energy security, impede investment in clean energy sources and undermine efforts to deal with the threat of climate change. However, I cannot accept this amendment because unabated gas-fired generation currently plays a critical role in keeping Great Britain’s electricity system secure and stable. New-build gas generation capacity will continue to be needed to ensure security of supply until clean alternatives are deployable at scale.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I have a question for the Minister. We have a real problem with fuel poverty and the energy cost of living—indeed, the cost of living everywhere. Energy costs are so high, and they are going to get even higher come April. Does it not worry the Minister—and, through him, the Government —that Shell paid $1.8 billion in tax to Norway in 2020 but, over the same period, it received $99.1 million from our Government in the UK? In that year, the UK was the only country where Shell operates in which it did not pay tax, according to the company’s own annual report on payments to Governments. There is something very wrong here.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That is not a subject for today’s debate. I have no idea whether the figures produced by the noble Baroness are accurate, but we have had this debate many times. We are phasing out fossil fuel-required generation. We have one of the fastest deployable rates of renewables in the world. We have the largest offshore wind capacity in the world. I appreciate that the noble Baroness wants to go even faster but, unless she is standing here saying that we should turn the lights out tomorrow, even the Climate Change Committee accepts that we will need gas-fired generation in the years to come. This is a transition, not a revolution, so we will scale down our use of fossil fuels gradually but, in the short term, we will continue to need them.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I really must challenge the Minister on this. He knows that this is not a question of switching off the lights overnight. The Climate Change Committee has a well-worked-out plan for scaling down our use of fossil fuels. In that plan, we start to reduce our reliance on oil and gas to a point where the only oil and gas we have is mitigated by some form of abatement, in whatever form that may take, by 2050. The plan is not that we continue to use gas unabated until 2050—that just is not the case. It is very misleading to say that.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed—[Interruption.] I will let the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, come in as well.

Net-zero Test for New Policies

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point but it is not just government spending that contributes to net zero. Regulatory policies also have an impact. We are spending considerable sums; certainly, within my department we could always do with spending more, but the difficult job that the Treasury and Chancellor have is balancing tax income with net expenditure. Many government departments would, I am sure, prefer to be spending more money at the moment.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, just before Christmas, the Government launched a consultation with oil and gas companies on the design of the UK policy for the sector. Can the Minister say, first, whether the consultation will be carried out in accordance with the consensus between scientists and the International Energy Agency that new oil and gas production is incompatible with net zero by 2050? Secondly, how are the Government proposing to give voice to other stakeholders?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness and I have also debated this topic at length before. The point she needs to recognise is that, during the transition, there is still a requirement for oil and gas products in the United Kingdom. Liberal Democrats might not like that but it is a fact—unless you are going to stop people driving their cars and turn their gas boilers off tomorrow, and I do not see that being produced on a focus leaflet any time soon. We need to transition to net zero. During a transition period, therefore, the choice is: do we use oil and gas products we generate, creating jobs and paying taxes from UK assets, or do we get them from Russia or Saudi Arabia? I know what I would prefer.

Drax Wood Pellets

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No. In a sustainably managed forest, which all our biomass comes from, there will be stands of trees of different ages, which will be harvested in gradual sequence and then replaced as they reach maturity. The market price for biomass is far lower than it is for timber and board manufacture, which are far more valuable. These are by-products from the forestry process.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, part of the problem of how we got here is that the Government took at face value the assurances from biomass energy producers that their products were sustainable. Will the Government now commit to implementing a due diligence exercise in future, so that producers have to prove where they have sourced their product from?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

They already say where their product has come from; this evidence is independently audited. Generators must report against the criteria on a monthly basis and Ofgem performs checks to ensure that the criteria are met and deductions in certificate issuance or payments are applied proportionately for the energy produced. We are already doing the checks that the noble Baroness suggests.

Oil and Gas Authority: Remit

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 2nd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to align the remit of the Oil and Gas Authority from seeking the “maximum economic recovery” of North Sea oil and gas, to meeting the United Kingdom’s net-zero emissions commitments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, even though renewable electricity capacity has grown five-fold since 2010, oil and gas are still essential for our energy needs and are vital to the production of many everyday essentials such as medicines, plastics, cosmetics and household appliances. They will remain so in declining amounts, even in a net-zero world. It is therefore essential that we have a managed transition away from fossil fuels, as set out in our landmark North Sea Transition Deal.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the global atmosphere stands at an unprecedented 417 parts per million. At the very least, we have to stop exploration for new fields. The truth is that the UK is the most profitable country in the world for large offshore oil and gas projects thanks to our MER policy. Companies can offset all spending on exploration against tax, as well as receiving millions of pounds in direct grants. What plans do the Government have to phase out such inefficient subsidies, as required by the Glasgow climate pact?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, we have some of the most ambitious climate targets of any major economy in the western world and we are committed to net zero; indeed, it is a legal obligation. However, we will still need declining amounts of oil and gas, and the choice we face is whether we wish to use that produced domestically or to import it. In every scenario set out by the reductions, we will still have a requirement for petroleum products.

Net-zero Emissions Target: Fossil Fuel Extraction Projects

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they give to the net zero carbon emissions target set by the Climate Change Act 2008 (2050 Target Amendment) Order 2019 when determining whether to approve new fossil fuel extraction projects.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, as outlined in the Net Zero Strategy, we are driving down our reliance on fossil fuels and have committed to reducing UK greenhouse gas emissions by 78% by 2035. Oil and gas will play a smaller but important role in meeting future UK energy demand, as agreed by the Climate Change Committee. Fossil fuel projects are subject to robust scrutiny from our regulators before receiving consent, including on environmental grounds.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the recent report by the International Energy Agency, which was in fact commissioned and welcomed by the COP 26 president, Alok Sharma, said that to stay within the 1.5 degree limit there can be no new fossil fuel projects. However, Friends of the Earth tells us that there are at least 40 UK fossil fuel projects in the pipeline, the combined annual emissions of which would be almost three times that of the entire UK currently. Given our ambition for COP 26 to keep 1.5 alive, does the Minister agree with the IEA’s director that:

“If governments are serious about the climate crisis, there can be no new investments in oil, gas and coal”?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The problem with the noble Baroness’s argument is that we currently get three-quarters of our energy from oil and gas. It is a declining percentage as we decarbonise, but we currently get three-quarters of our energy in that way. Would the Liberal Democrats prefer that energy to come from Saudi Arabia or Russia, or from British workers paying British taxes in the UK, paying contributions to the UK Exchequer? That is the choice that faces us.

Climate Change: Global Temperatures

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can reassure my noble and learned friend on that basis. Heat pumps are a mature heating technology and currently the market-leading low-carbon option. I am also delighted to tell him that the largest UK manufacturer, Mitsubishi in Scotland, produces 10,000 of them a year.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the unpredicted intensity of freak events such as the heat dome in the US and Canada has left scientists reeling. Oceanographers are monitoring with concern the anomaly in the Gulf Stream, which helps to regulate our world’s weather, and the cold spot south-east of Greenland is particularly worrying. Does the Minister accept that it is time to stop dicing with the future of our planet, to keep fossil fuels in the ground and therefore to ditch the abominable policy that places a legal duty on our Government to extract every last drop of oil from the North Sea?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Committee on Climate Change has made it clear that we still need fossil fuels for the transition. I remind the noble Baroness that the UK is responsible for only 1% of worldwide emissions. Yes, we must do our bit, which we are—we are a world-leading power in that respect—but we also need to work on a worldwide basis with other nations, because just stopping emissions in the United Kingdom will not solve the problem.

Deep Seabed Mining

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 6th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is important to say that there are no mining projects ongoing at the moment; there is a discussion about possible mining projects in future. Our position is that we need to ensure that, before any projects take place, strong environmental regulations and controls are put in place, and we are playing a critical role in helping to ensure that.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, yesterday the congress of the IUCN, the International Union for Conservation of Nature, agreed the wording of a motion calling for a moratorium on deep seabed mining. How do our Government plan to vote on that?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are engaging closely in the process. We will possibly abstain on the final resolution, but we are working closely with our international partners to drive this and ensure strong and sustainable progress.

Net Zero Test

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not agree with the noble Lord. Of course, local authorities are critical in terms of delivering this agenda and I have many meetings with them to discuss a number of the grand schemes for which I am responsible. We have spent something like £1.2 billion in dedicated funds given to local authorities through the local authority delivery scheme and the public sector decarbonisation scheme to help them in this job.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the Government’s remit to the Oil and Gas Authority is MER, maximising economic recovery—also known as “drill every last drop”. The Government’s continued support for this policy leaves them open to applications such as the Cambo oilfield, which one trusts they will turn down. May I ask the Minister how the MER policy is compatible with our net-zero targets, given that existing oilfields already in production will take us over our agreed NDC?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The independent Committee on Climate Change recognises that there is an ongoing role for oil and gas, and we are working hard to drive down demand and emissions. The updated Oil and Gas Authority strategy includes a requirement for industry to “take appropriate steps” to support the delivery of the net-zero target—and, of course, we have put forward the ambitious decarbonisation plan for the North Sea. With regard to the Cambo field, Shell and Siccar Point have put forward a development proposal seeking consent, with an intention to commence production in 2025. This is not a new project; it was licensed in 2001 and 2004 and is going through the normal regulatory approval process.

Human Rights Due Diligence

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Tuesday 20th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to make human rights due diligence mandatory for businesses, in particular those engaged in forest risk commodities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government expect businesses to target their human rights due diligence approaches according to the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. We currently have no plans to make this mandatory because there is existing legislation which holds businesses to account on human rights. All UK quoted companies are required to report on relevant human rights issues in their annual reports, and large businesses must publish supply chain transparency statements on steps they take to prevent modern slavery.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. The European Commission plans to publish its sustainable corporate governance proposal this autumn, and UK companies operating in the single market would fall into its scope. I hear what the Minister says about the Government having no plans, but what consideration are they giving to keeping pace with the European Commission? Does he really believe that the current law is satisfactory to enable business practices to ensure that all commodities and services are subject to human rights and environmental due diligence processes?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course, we will keep these matters under review, but we believe that mandating compliance presents some practical challenges in definition, enforcement and so on. However, we will of course keep it under review.

Hydrogen Economy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes extremely good points. We have a number of world-leading companies in these fields. Indeed, I was able to visit JCB a few weeks ago, and drive a hydrogen digger—also without apparent accident, which is quite amazing. A number of other companies are also developing excellent, innovative products in this field. We have some world-leading companies but, as I said in a previous answer, our hydrogen strategy will indeed be published in due course.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the energy White Paper pledges to establish the UK as a world leader in the deployment of carbon capture and storage and clean hydrogen. This clean hydrogen is, in fact, blue hydrogen, which is a by-product of the fossil fuel industry. Does the Minister believe that CCS, the process that is supposed to render blue hydrogen clean, is proven at scale and, if so, can he name just one example?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There are a number of demonstration projects around the world on CCS, but we need to demonstrate it at scale and, as the noble Baroness will be aware, we will shortly be announcing our first CCUS clusters in the UK.

Covid-19: Vaccine Production

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 17th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in discussions with members of the World Trade Organization to facilitate increased production and supply of COVID-19 vaccines.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK is proud to be playing a global leading role in the development and distribution of coronavirus vaccines. What is now needed most is the scaling up of existing and new vaccine production to achieve equitable, affordable access for all. We continue to engage actively and constructively at the WTO regarding increasing the production and supply of Covid-19 vaccines.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the temporary TRIPS waiver proposed by South Africa and India to the WTO is supported by the US and France, as well as the leaders of the COVAX initiative—Gavi and the WHO—which has proven entire-chain processes that deliver to the last mile. Does the Minister agree that the counter-proposal by the European Commission to encourage voluntary action and reliance on compulsory licences is a red herring, because both options already exist? Millions of people have died while we rely on the good will of big pharma, which has yet again failed the humanity test.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Baroness. We are working with industry, the COVAX Manufacturing Task Force and the ACT-A Vaccine Manufacturing Working Group to champion other routes to scale up capacity and engage on forward supply chain planning in order to accelerate and progress vaccination programmes across the world. We think that is the best way forward.

Biomass Electricity Subsidies: Deforestation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, given the need to rapidly decarbonise and the impact of pellet production on forests, will the Government review the decision to class biomass as carbon-neutral under the UK ETS and stop subsidising new biomass projects? I should say here that I own a biomass boiler.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, the biomass strategy will review all those factors. We want to continue subsidising biomass only if there are genuine carbon savings, if it does not contribute to deforestation and if it is produced in a sustainable way.

Industrial Strategy: Local Growth

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 26th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course it is not always the case. Many councils do good work. We think that the local Industrial Strategy Council did some good work, but we are building on that, extending and taking it forward. The Build Back Better Council, to which the noble Lord refers, will take forward that work.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, why is the Industrial Strategy Council to be abolished? A number of other noble Lords have asked this question and I want to press the Minister on it. How do the Government intend to fill the gap that will be created to hold government Ministers to account on the plan for growth overall?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Many of the elements of the work of the Industrial Strategy Council have been superseded. There are now new challenges—we had the Covid epidemic. The Government, of course, are still being held to account in this House and elsewhere. The purpose of the Build Back Better Council will be to provide help and advice on the way forward.

Heat Pumps

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 22nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The heat and building strategy will set how we will co-ordinate many of these plans and work with local authorities. As the noble Lord is aware, we have a number of incentive and funding schemes to help in this deployment.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I refer to the undertaking given in the Minister’s letter of 25 January to a director of a company in the domestic heating decarbonisation sector promising that the green homes grant would support shared ground source heat pump installations in high-rise apartment blocks owned by social landlords. Up to last week, only one ground source heat pump had been supported by the GHG. When will this undertaking be implemented?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The GHG is facing some delivery challenges, as the noble Baroness will be aware. The deployment of heat pumps is proceeding. I can find out the latest figures for ground source heat pump deployment and let her have them in writing.

Energy White Paper

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord’s comments are well made. We all find frustrating the length of time it takes to do anything in this country with the planning system and all the approvals needed, but safety is critical. We must make sure that everything is safe, has the proper approvals and goes through all the proper planning processes, et cetera. I accept his disappointment about barrage systems, but the key point is that these are all different systems with different considerations and investment appraisals. Some of these schemes were extremely optimistic; we have to try to select systems and projects that are good value for money, but we always bear all these systems in mind and are interested in future schemes coming forward for investment appraisal.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the Government’s policy to extract every last drop from our part of the North Sea is incompatible with our net-zero target, the Paris Agreement and our leadership of COP 26 next year. When will the Government follow Denmark’s lead and stop for good the issuance of new licences for oil and gas exploration and plan instead for a just transition so that jobs and communities in Scotland and the north-east are protected?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know the noble Baroness has strong feelings on this because she has asked me this question before. She should bear in mind that hundreds of thousands of jobs are dependent on the North Sea. We are delivering the North Sea transition deal, providing support for the people and communities most affected by the eventual move away from oil and gas production. We are supporting the transition of skills and supply chains for a clean energy transition and focusing export finance on low-carbon opportunities internationally. Many companies producing in the North Sea are committed to the net-zero challenge, so, rather than just say that they cannot produce any more, we need to work to help them in the transition away from fossil fuel production.

Climate Change

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Government are ending support for fossil-fuel projects in developing countries, but here at home the Oil and Gas Authority’s remit remains to extract every last drop through its “maximising economic revenue” policy. Does the Minister agree that this is incompatible with the Climate Change Act and our leadership of COP 26 next year? Will he and the Government support my Private Member’s Bill, the Petroleum (Amendment) Bill, which seeks to rectify this?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No, I do not agree with the noble Baroness. The oil and gas industry employs tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. It recognises the challenge, and the Government need to work with that to help it in the transition.

Fossil Fuels: Business

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

In the transition, the North Sea will remain a strategic asset for the UK providing high-quality jobs. We are working closely with the sector to support its transition. The noble Baroness will get more details in the upcoming energy White Paper and the North Sea transition deal.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, according to the UK extractive industries transparency initiative, between 2015 and 2017, the Treasury gave more money to oil companies than it took from them in taxes—quite shocking. Is it still the Government’s policy to extract every last drop from the North Sea, no matter what the cost to our economy and to the future of our planet?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I just said in answer to a previous questioner, the North Sea is vital to our economy and the transition. We will work closely with those companies, and already have some world-leading commitments from many on how they are taking forward the decarbonisation agenda.

COP 26

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure that the noble Lord is being entirely fair with his critique of the announcement. Many of the initiatives are based on new and existing technologies. We are building on many of the initiatives that we already have going, for instance the green homes grants system, which is proving so successful and popular and is building on an existing scheme. I think that noble Lords in many parts of the House would accept that we should go further on things such as hydrogen and elsewhere.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, the catastrophes of climate change are already with us. We need urgent action and must pull all available levers to stop putting even more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Will the Minister say why proven, here-today technologies, such as solar PV and onshore wind, have been ignored altogether in the 10-point plan?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Solar PV has made immense progress in this country and we are looking to see how we can build on that further. Onshore wind has, of course, been controversial in some cases, but with existing turbines it has proved to be successful. The main gains to be made, however, are through offshore wind, the costs of which have fallen dramatically.

UK Internal Market: White Paper

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Sheehan

Wednesday 29th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Lord for his support. I was happy to be able to brief him personally on the proposals, because I know he speaks with great authority on this subject. He is right to refer to the market access commitments. It is a simple set of legal principles which guarantees UK businesses access to trade across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They have tremendous benefits for businesses in Scotland and Wales, as well as those in England. The noble Lord is right to say that we are considering setting up a body to monitor the operation of the single market across the United Kingdom. If we proceed with those proposals, I am sure that it will be sensible to have representation from the devolved Administrations.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the national mood is very much to build back better. That starts with the statutory safeguarding of hard-won improvements in food safety, animal welfare and environmental standards, which the Government have steadfastly refused to do recently during the passage of the Agriculture Bill and other Bills through both Houses. Does the Minister therefore accept that proposed measures in this White Paper do nothing to reassure campaigners, let alone the devolved Administrations, that their voices matter, and that mutual recognition looks very much to be a descending one-way street of falling standards?

[Lord Callanan]

I am afraid I cannot agree with the noble Baroness’s point. We are committed to high standards; we had these debates endlessly during the passage of the EU withdrawal legislation, and similar debates are going on during the passage of the Agriculture Bill at the moment. However, we are very proud of the high standards we have in this country and we will not dilute them. This is not about a race to the bottom.