Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Lord Blackwell Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Blackwell]

1: Clause 4, page 8, line 47, at end insert—
“( ) In determining the “specified extent” in subsection (5)(d), the regulator shall have due regard to proportionality where the ring-fenced activities constitute a large majority of the group’s overall activities.”

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[Lord Blackwell (Con)]

My Lords, since I was unable to speak at Second Reading, I should take this opportunity to declare my interests at the start of Committee stage. I am a non-executive director of Lloyds Banking Group and chairman of Scottish Widows group.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, I would be most grateful if colleagues could leave the Chamber quietly, particularly because my noble friend is taking the proper course of declaring an interest which must be correctly entered in Hansard.

[Lord Blackwell]

My Lords, before moving on to the amendment, and as I did not speak at Second Reading, I want to make it clear that I strongly support the principles of the Bill, and the principle of ring fencing in particular. My amendment is to deal with some of the practical issues of making that work in the financial institutions. The amendment deals with the situation where a financial services group that is primarily operating ring-fenced activities retains a small set of activities that may fall outside the ring-fence.

The consequence of the legislation as it stands is that where a group is primarily operating ring-fenced activities but retains some non-ring-fenced activities which may be excluded activities, it would be required to have a separate board for the ring-fenced subsidiary and a separate set of directors operating in it—that is, separate from the group board.

I can understand why having separate boards for a ring-fenced subsidiary may be seen as desirable where the group contains a large non-ring-fenced activity in investment banking or wholesale market activities in order to police the separation between the ring-fenced and the non-ring-fenced activities. The provisions of ring-fencing under the Bill should of course deal with that situation by specifying the amount of capital and requirements for security in the ring-fenced activity and its resolution, preventing the flow of dividends controlling the financing relationships between the ring-fenced activity in the group, but I can also understand that having an independent board for the ring-fenced activity where there are other significant activities in the group provides an added level of security to deal with potential conflicts of interest.

However, where the non-ring-fenced activities are of a very minor nature compared with those within the ring-fenced bank, it could potentially lead to a situation where the group board with responsibility to shareholders and to the public has virtually no control over the activities of the ring-fenced activity, despite the fact that the vast majority of the assets and capital are within the ring-fenced subsidiary. That would be a nonsensical situation. It would be poor governance and it would be difficult to operate such a group board in that situation.

The type of activities that I am talking about are those where the ring-fenced bank may feel that to serve its customers effectively it needs to retain some element of activities outside the ring-fence not engaging those as a principal part of its business but as part of achieving a proper level of service to its customers.

The amendment would explore that situation where the non-ring-fenced activities are a fairly minor part of the group. There are two ways in which this could be resolved in a common-sense way. The first way would be for the regulator to exercise discretion under new Section 142D to the FSMA to allow a small volume of otherwise excluded activities to be carried out within the ring-fence so long as the regulator is satisfied that including those activities within the ring-fenced subsidiary did not put at risk the solvency or ability to resolve the ring-fenced activities if there were situations that used the capital applied to the non-ring- fenced activities. So one solution would be to allow the ring-fenced bank to extend its activities. Of course, the regulator would also need to be assured in that situation that allowing the ring-fenced bank to operate those activities would not distort competition with non-ring-fenced banks operating in those markets without the ability to operate within the ring-fence.

The second way of resolving this, if the regulator does not feel that it can include those excluded activities within the ring-fenced subsidiary, would be for the regulator to use its discretion under new Section 142H(5)(d) to waive the requirement for separate board membership of the group and its subsidiary, again where the regulator is convinced that in so doing it does not put at risk the ability to resolve the ring-fenced bank where there was a threat to its solvency.

The amendment is probing in nature. The legislation as I have described it allows the regulator to exercise discretion, but I invite the Minister to provide clarity that where the legislation says that the separation of the boards should be “to a specified extent”, the regulator would have the freedom and indeed the expectation that it should exercise that discretion with due respect for the proportionality of the activities within the ring-fence and any activities that there may be within the group outside the ring-fence. That seems to me to be a common-sense solution. I beg to move.

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[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether, in his assessment of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, the Minister might take into account the fact that it was exactly this sort of procedure that led to the steady erosion of Glass-Steagall over the years. There was a tendency continuously to say, “Well, if we have a particular subsidiary, then perhaps we don’t need to have the separation in this smaller subsidiary”. These steady erosions built up over the years, until by the early part of this century, before its repeal, the effectiveness of Glass-Steagall had been completely eroded. Perhaps the Government should take that into account. There is also the point that, if the investment banking services required by a ring-fenced bank are relatively small, they could, of course, always be purchased from another provider.

Finally, the Minister mentioned that the precise definition of the rules of extent and so on will be defined by the regulators and in secondary legislation. I wonder whether it would be appropriate at this moment to take into account the latest report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which has expressed considerable concern about the scrutiny of secondary legislation that will follow from new Sections 142A, 142B and so forth as we are discussing in this particular context. Are the Government likely to accept the enhanced scrutiny proposed by that committee with respect to these particular sections?

[Lord Blackwell]

I am grateful for my noble friend’s comments on Amendment 1 and for his explanation that the flexibility allowed for in this Bill will be flexibility that the regulator will be expected to interpret. I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, but clearly the regulator’s role will be to ensure that creep does not occur on the way and that the protection of the ring-fenced bank is the requirement as set out in this legislation. Therefore, with those assurances from my noble friend, I am pleased to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Deighton]

With respect to the specific question, we have not had the chance to review the delegated powers yet, but of course we will in formulating where we go from here.

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[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, I am in total agreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, has said about the importance of the reviews of this process. We have to realise that we really are breaking new ground here. In a way, this is a leap in the dark and we have no idea whether it will work. Obviously a lot of effort has gone into trying to ensure that it will work, but it is such a novel innovation that we really cannot be sure whether it will, or indeed whether it will have a whole series of unintended consequences.

Accordingly, I feel that it is very important that the process be kept under virtually continuous review. The amendment in the name of myself and my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe seeks to ensure that the first review and subsequent reviews take place within relatively short time periods of up to two years. The reason for that is that it is only five years ago, almost to the day, that Lehman Brothers collapsed, and let us think what has happened since then. If we were to retain the four-year limit, that would cover almost that whole period, with all the remarkable devastating changes that have occurred.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, in his proposed new Section 142JA, that such a virtually standing group should act as an independent arbiter and assessor of these matters. It certainly should not be, as in the Government’s proposal, the PRA inspecting itself. That does not seem to be a very satisfactory structure at all. It is not appropriate in terms of giving confidence in the reviews, and it is not fair to the PRA. The PRA should be able to stand up and do its job, and then accept that it will then be scrutinised by the sort of independent group proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. My amendment would simply ensure that that group had a virtually standing role in assessing these major changes to ensure that, once we have taken this leap in the dark, we land on firm ground. On Amendment 5, I shall simply reiterate the arguments that I have just made. I beg to move.

[Lord Blackwell]

My Lords, I must express some reservations about the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. It is not that I do not understand the significance of having continuous and effective review of these ring-fencing procedures, but it seems to me that we have set up, with a lot of time in this House and the other place, a regulator that has learnt in that legislation and its constitution and objectives many of the lessons of the past, and we have entrusted that regulator with maintaining the stability of the financial sector and enforcing this legislation, if the Bill is passed. I think there is a danger in seeking to replace the regulation of an industry by an independent regulator with what might be in danger of turning into regulation by parliamentary committee. Parliamentary committees have many virtues and values, but they cannot engage dispassionately in the same evaluation of detailed analysis and commercial information that a regulator can, and they are more likely to be swayed by current opinions of the day. I pay tribute to the work of the commission on which the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, and other noble Lords sat, which did an excellent job. I worry about the possibility of moving away from regulation by independent regulators, which are deliberately made independent of the Executive, towards regulation by parliamentary committees.

[Lord Turnbull]

The noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, referred to the fact that this might become a parliamentary committee. I think it is very clear that this would not be a parliamentary committee. The person who chairs it should,

“act independently of the Treasury, the PRA and the FCA”.

It would be much more like the Vickers commission.

[Lord Blackwell]

I thank the noble Lord for that clarification. I was responding to the fact that the amendment suggests that the chair should be approved by the chairman of the Treasury Select Committee. That would certainly alleviate some of my concerns. Nevertheless, the main point is that if we have an independent regulator, we should trust that regulator to do the job we have asked it to do. That does not prevent Parliament, or any Select Committee of Parliament, conducting its own reviews at any time it wishes, or appointing other reviewers if the circumstances require it.

I must just add that my concerns on that would be even greater if this was required to happen at two-yearly intervals, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, rather than at five-yearly intervals, because the task of the regulator with a permanent body looking over its shoulder would then become almost untenable.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, I had the opportunity of speaking at Second Reading, which seems rather unusual. I pointed out then, and I remain of the view, that the way that the Bill is drafted, with so much reference to a previous Act, makes it extremely difficult for the House to work out what is happening from moment to moment on an unbelievably complex matter. Having said that, the briefs that have been provided by the Treasury on individual amendments and so on are extremely helpful and do something to ameliorate the problem that I have just mentioned.

It seems to me that we are going very much into uncharted waters here. There is a lot of doubt about ring-fencing, its effectiveness and whether it is a sensible way of proceeding at all. I continue in the view that total separation is a better way of going with it. Certainly, since ring-fencing may cause problems, the case for having a review of it is overwhelming.

With regard to the specific way in which this amendment is drafted, the noble Lord who moved it pointed out that the suggestion is that the people who are appointed to the reviewing body should require the endorsement, effectively, of the Treasury Committee. I think I served as chairman of the Treasury Committee for longer than anyone else has ever served, and I welcome the fact that it is playing an increasing role in these affairs. It also seems to me that the development that has been adopted lately, of saying that it requires a degree of endorsement by the Treasury Committee, is good.

It certainly would be wrong—I think that my noble friend Lord Blackwell has misunderstood the position—to start saying that the review should be carried out by the Treasury Committee. It has, after all, an awful lot of work on its plate anyway. However, having said that, we certainly ought to have this amendment or some variation on it, simply because of the difficulties that the ring-fence system as now proposed is likely to create, assuming that we go ahead with it.

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[Lord Turnbull]

I referred to the second reserve power, which would allow that where, in the commission’s view, it was felt that not just a single bank but the banking sector as a whole was not respecting the constraints of ring-fencing and the scheme was basically not working, it could move by steps to full separation. Of course, this second reserve power was predicated on the assumption that there will be a fundamental review of the kind that some of us have been arguing for. If all that we have is the PRA-led review of the kind that the Government have been seeking, we would certainly not have a sufficiently strong basis. However, the review we are seeking is based on a view of the world in which, first, there is continuous innovation and, secondly, other jurisdictions are making changes—notably in the EU. At some point that, combined with the behaviour of a banking sector, may lead to the conclusion that there should be a further change. Deciding that this scheme is not working does not necessarily lead you to full separation; it could lead you to something else, such as tightening the regime or some other modification.

We have had this argument about the review. However, then you get to the real crunch, which is that even if there is agreement on the review, and the review says that ring-fencing needs to be changed in some way, this amendment says that the further action that has been identified and recommended by a son of Vickers could be implemented under the powers of this Bill. That is the fundamental disagreement. The Government argue that that means that you are doing something completely different. I argue, first, that getting legislation is not an easy thing to do—you have to compete for time; and, secondly, that not being able to implement the conclusions of such a review reduces the effect of the deterrence and increases the opportunity for lobbying. In any case, the Government would have the last say in the scheme that we have devised. Therefore, if there was a recommendation from a Vickers mark 2, the Government would not be forced to act on it: they could decide that they did not want to act on it and did not have to accept it. Equally, if they wanted to, they would be able to. The position is asymmetrical. Since the Government have a veto, they cannot be railroaded into a policy that they do not want. However, if it is a policy that they do want, they have the power to accept it and act accordingly. That is the basis of Amendment 23, which refers to this power, and of Amendment 117, which states that you cannot exercise this power until a fundamental review has taken place.

[Lord Blackwell]

Could the noble Lord explain the drafting of Amendment 23? As I understood his explanation, it was that this would be a contingent power that the regulator could enforce if necessary. The way the amendment is drafted, proposed new Section 142VA gives the impression that it would be a requirement regardless of any other condition. Perhaps the noble Lord will clarify how it will become contingent on the regulator deciding that it is necessary.

[Lord Turnbull]

If the drafting does not say that, we will have to amend it. The clear intention is for this to be a power and not a requirement. I beg to move.

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[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, what underlies this whole debate is a feeling that the so-called advantages of the universal bank do not outweigh the dangers and disadvantages. My noble friend referred earlier to preserving the advantages of the universal bank, but there is no doubt that such advantages as there might be, regardless of the risks, are significantly reduced if we have an effective system of ring-fencing. Many of us here feel that the ring-fencing proposal is wrong and unlikely to be very successful. We came up with the Vickers report and the Government have gone along very largely with the proposal that was made, but the reality is that we are going to have a situation whereby we should really be going in the direction of full separation. This is bound to take time. Therefore, an amendment of the kind that my noble friend has proposed would effectively give us a means to get out of the present impasse to a situation where we move towards full separation.

I return for a moment to a point that I made earlier. Where does all this leave us in relation both to the United States and with regard to the European Union? This is clearly a global industry. It is no good our legislating for the situation with regard to British banks if quite different rules are being applied in Europe, or applied to us from Europe, or the rules are different in the United States. There is a strong case for trying to get an international consensus on this, but the ring-fencing proposal seems significantly different from what I understand is being proposed in Europe and certainly what is being put forward in the United States. Therefore, I hope that my noble friend will respond to two points. First, where do we stand with this proposal in relation to the international situation? Secondly, is there not a case for the amendment which, as my noble friend has said, will enable us to act if what has rightly been called an experiment as regards ring-fencing turns out not to work?

[Lord Blackwell]

My Lords, given some of the recent speeches, I again sound a small note of caution. While I understand the need to electrify the ring-fence, the Government and this House should be cautious about legislating on a presumption that universal banking is the wrong commercial or organisational model. I share many of the concerns that have been expressed about the difficulty of having a common culture in an organisation that embraces too many different activities. However, it seems to me that it is primarily a commercial judgment for the management and shareholders to decide whether or not they can make that range of activities succeed. The primary duty of the Government and the regulator is to ensure that whatever is done is not a threat to the financial stability of the system. As I said in my introduction to the first amendment, I support ring-fencing which seems to me to be targeted at that purpose, which is to define the capital and risk exposure of the ring-fenced bank and ensure that it is regulated in such a way that the other activities of the group do not impinge on the capital and solvency of the ring-fenced activity. So long as the Government and the regulator can do that—I understand that people are raising questions about that—it seems to me that the question of other activities in the group is not something on which the Government should rush to legislate.

There are arguments which have not been put in this House about, for example, the ability to serve customers in a common way across different entities in the group, which would not be prevented by ring-fencing. There are arguments about the use of common resources such as IT resources, infrastructure and a whole range of central resources that can be used in a group structure. There may be good arguments or bad arguments but those are arguments that the management and the shareholders should primarily be in a position to consider. Some will succeed and some will fail but it is not up to this House to decide the commercial logic or otherwise of universal banking. The House should decide primarily whether or not the ring-fencing, the safeguards in the Bill and the electrification that is already built into the government amendments will do the job that is intended.

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, what is particularly striking about the commission’s report, especially its final report, is the way in which it presents a coherent package of measures. This amendment fits together with the review amendment that we considered earlier as those two elements reinforce each other. As Amendment 117 makes clear, the review element is the key trigger for Parliament to consider whether this measure of separation should be introduced. There is coherence here. What is distressing about the Government’s rejection of the nature of independent review and hostility towards this amendment is that by removing that internal coherence of argument they significantly weaken the overall approach to financial regulation which we are attempting to achieve.

In anticipating this discussion on separation, the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, asserted that the arguments for separation had not been considered and that if you wanted an amendment of this sort you ought to have another commission to consider the arguments. That is just not so as the arguments were considered extensively, first by the independent commission and then by the parliamentary commission. The main point that came out of those discussions was that there was a strong case for separation. However, the experiment of ring-fencing was felt to be worth while as, if it worked, the trauma of separation would not be required. The idea that this issue has not been considered is not the case as it has been considered very thoroughly. It has not been rejected but is seen as a backstop, if you like, to the ring-fencing proposal.

The most reverend Primate made the terribly important point, in a way which has not been brought out by other speakers, that this measure strengthens the whole structure of the ring-fence and will incentivise the banks to regulate each other. There will be an enormous incentive for all the banks to keep an eye on what everybody else is up to to ensure that they are not drawn into this final total separation. The people on the inside who really know what is going on will have a strong incentive to make the ring-fence work because if it does not work they know that there is a reserve power in the Bill. If you really want the ring-fence to work, you need this clause. It is a contingent clause and a reserve power but if we really want the ring-fence to work, the Government should wholeheartedly embrace the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull.