Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Access to Infrastructure) Regulations 2011

Lord Bishop of Chester Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, again I do not know what else one could do. There seems to be an outbreak of common sense; we are implementing a European directive, which I see this as primarily, to ensure that pipeline and CCS companies do as we scold our children to do—to share, rather than keep things to themselves.

I have two questions for the Minister. First, he mentioned a long track record of facility sharing in the oil and gas industries, which there clearly already is, but I suspect that those provisions did not perhaps come in until a lot of the structures in those industries had got going. In this case, it is a new industry and I presume that we do not have any carbon dioxide pipelines going extensive distances. Clearly, they do within existing industrial plants but I wonder whether we might get into a sort of games theory where no one builds the first one because the first mover, in this instance, is the one who has to find all the finance and raise all the money, which is not inconsiderable. All the businesses coming afterwards will have to do is show that independent authority that it would make sense to share, so they miss the whole hurdle that the first people had to get over. I wonder whether that distorts the market somehow, but I am sure that the Minister will have an eloquent reply on that. Otherwise, this is good legislation.

Finally, I take this opportunity to ask the Minister where we are in terms of CCS and when we might see the network of carbon dioxide pipelines under—I was going to say across—our countryside. Where are we on the four schemes that the Government are promoting?

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I, too, will ask the Minister one or two questions, perhaps going a bit beyond the immediate area covered by the statutory instrument. However, I will start with that. Do the Government anticipate that the transport of carbon dioxide will be through an entirely new set of pipelines, or will existing pipelines, in particular those used for natural gas, be used when fields dry up? Is it also possible that a given pipeline might have some form of dual use? Are we talking about an entirely separate infrastructure or about an infrastructure that will be available for both uses?

Can the Minister confirm where the expected storage sites will be, and what state of provenance they have? Are we talking simply of oil and gas fields under the North Sea, or are there other geological structures in which it is anticipated that carbon dioxide might be stored? Given that we are talking about a very long timescale for storage, what evidence exists that the carbon dioxide will not escape, through cracks or whatever?

The impact assessment states, on page 8:

“As the main method of de-carbonising fossil fuel power generation, it will be important that CCS, should it prove viable at a commercial scale”.

That is phrased in the subjunctive conditional. It raises the question: what happens if it is proved that CCS is not viable on a commercial scale? On the previous page, the assessment states:

“CCS is not currently commercial without subsidy”.

It would be helpful to have some idea of what level of subsidy the Government consider may be needed to provide CCS. This is important because, if the Government stick with their position of having no more coal-fired power stations without CCS, and if CCS adds so much to the cost that we do not have coal-fired power stations, we then have to ask what form of electricity generation we will use.

I understand that over the past year our coal-fired power stations have been used more than was expected because they proved cheaper, with the price of gas going up. This has shortened the permitted life of some of our existing coal-fired stations. If we cannot go forward with any coal-fired stations because CCS does not prove to be commercially viable, does this not contain a hidden further increase in electricity prices if we cannot rely on any use of coal generation? Perhaps the Minister could put on the record some comments in response to those questions.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, first, we welcome these regulations and the new clauses on this issue added in the other place to the Energy Bill. They all lead towards ensuring that we have the available infrastructure in place and that necessary powers will be available. The noble Lord knows that we fully support CCS, and indeed that we made a commitment in government to fully fund the first CCS project. The regulations pave the way to that. However, as the comments from other noble Lords have highlighted, they do not remove the uncertainties that remain. Perhaps, in the light of the regulations before us, the Minister will be able to offer some reassurance on when the investment for the schemes will be available, because we have had no information on that yet. The CCS levy has been scrapped, the Government's argument being that the burden on business was unfair. Instead, the taxpayer is now to be funding the scheme through the Treasury but we do not know when that is going to happen, so any clarification from the Minister would be welcome.

I want to ask two specific questions on the order. I understand what the Government are seeking to do here and I support that. I will talk through this and see if the Minister can follow, as I have not given him notification of this question. My understanding is that an applicant seeking access to or modification of a pipeline can seek the approval of the Secretary of State or another consenting authority—it need not be the Secretary of State—if negotiations fail to secure such access or modifications as are required. The legislation before us allows an appeal to be made if the consenting authority, which will mainly be the Secretary of State, thinks that there has been a reasonable time in which to reach that agreement. I hope that would only be in exceptional circumstances as it seems to me that, more often than not, the problems in reaching agreement will be not on technical issues but on the commercial aspects.

The evidence base for decisions determines the criteria on which the consenting authority will make decisions, and it does not include commercial considerations. What if the stumbling block to agreement is not technical in any way but commercial? What if it is about price? It seems very difficult for the Government or any consenting authorities to intervene, as stated in the order. As I read it, the Government would not have the power to intervene.

There may be an intention that there should be a regulator to ensure that the pricing mechanisms are fair but, unless I am misreading something in the order before us or its Explanatory Memorandum, I do not see that. Indeed, if we look at the evidence base for option 2, which is on page 10, the impact assessment says on these issues:

“If the consenting authority is required to determine the financial terms for access or modification for … pipelines and storage sites … they would be guided by principles similar to those already used in other sectors”.

That implies that there is a role for the consenting authority and the Secretary of State to intervene on financial or commercial matters. It would be helpful to have some clarification because I am not sure I really welcome a Secretary of State intervening in commercial decisions. There could be a potential difficulty or a minefield if they are required to do that without sufficient guidance about which criteria they should take into account and how that should be conducted.

My only other question is: in terms of the time allowed for negotiations before the applicant can make an appeal to the consenting authority, will there be any guidance on what is reasonable? It seems that different kinds of applications could take different amounts of time, as some will be more complex than others. If the negotiation is around price, that could make it even more complex as it could be that company A is trying to preserve a position that it may want to take in the future. While I certainly support the principle, I would like some further information on those points if possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

In a previous incarnation, I was a chemist. In all my previous experience of carbon dioxide, it never had a liquid state. It went straight from gas to solid; hence you can buy solid carbon dioxide to keep your ice-cream cold, and so on. Under what conditions do you get liquid carbon dioxide? I have not come across it.

[Lord Marland]

I did not actually say it was liquid. I said it was more liquid than gas. Denser carbon dioxide will be moved down the pipes. It is readily identifiable as a subject because, as the right reverend Prelate will know as a great scientist, you cannot touch carbon dioxide.

The right reverend Prelate made another point about storage. We are reliably informed that there will not be leakage. We have to take every precaution to make sure that there will not be leakage and must make sure that all adequate precautions are taken. Of course, this is a demonstration project. We are moving into unfounded territory and who knows what the outcome will be. It is very important that we have rigorously tested the programme, but it is a demonstration project. I will not comment on the outcome of the demonstration project at the moment because the intense negotiations finish on Friday. We remain optimistic.

[Lord Marland]

That is certainly not the intention. There may be residual oil in an empty oil well, but it is not the driver for them carrying out this process. However, I am grateful to the noble Duke for informing us of that.

The right reverend Prelate asked whether we know whether CCS will be commercially viable. Until we have done the first demonstration, we do not know whether we can do it on a large scale. If we achieve it on a large scale, economies of scale will come into play, and we hope it will become commercially viable. In answer to his subsidy question, that is why the Government have committed £1 billion of capital expenditure to try to make the first demonstrator work. The right reverend Prelate made a very good point about the future of coal. As he said, we are reliant on coal. It is not our intention to rid ourselves of coal but to make it cleaner within a low-carbon economy. As a scientist, he will know that they will have to put in NOx cleaning systems in 2016 and 2017 to make coal cleaner. He is probably the only person in this Room who knows what the effect is, and I will not pretend to go into detail with him on it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, kindly gave me some prior notice of her questions. She made two very good points and, if I am honest, I am not completely satisfied in my mind that I have the right answers to them. At what point does a Minister intervene? Should a Minister intervene? What is the reasonable time that should be allowed? In her own words, let us hope that it does not come to that. However, at some point you have to have an ultimate arbiter. At some point it is reasonable to think that the ultimate arbiter should be the Minister, in which case it is reasonable that at some point the Minister would intervene. Should we put a time limit on a dispute? I tend to agree that we should, but if we are too prescriptive about it, we may force the thing in the wrong direction. I will take away those points to consider in the department to see whether there is a straighter edge to put on those two excellent suggestions.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

On that point, page 8 of the notes states that there should be,

“the opportunity to refer a negotiation to an independent party”,

for perfectly good reasons. I entirely accept that. Is the Minister happy with the description “an independent party”? It seems to me that he will have a vested interest in being the arbiter if in a commercial situation there is no agreement. It would be normal for the Minister to be regarded as independent for those purposes, as described on page 8.

[Lord Marland]

Where does it stop? At what point is someone independent if the word means that they are able to take an objective and independent view of the problem? I do not disagree with the right reverend Prelate on the conclusion that we are trying to achieve. As I referenced earlier, I think that it needs further thought and a straighter edge. I readily said that we should perhaps try to get a little more detail on it. I do not have a prescription now. I am not necessarily sure that we should have a prescription now, but I am happy to carry on the discussion outside the Committee because it is at the margin of the reality and focus of the issue of CCS. To use the words of the noble Baroness, let us hope that it does not get to the point where we have to.