Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Access to Infrastructure) Regulations 2011

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I, too, will ask the Minister one or two questions, perhaps going a bit beyond the immediate area covered by the statutory instrument. However, I will start with that. Do the Government anticipate that the transport of carbon dioxide will be through an entirely new set of pipelines, or will existing pipelines, in particular those used for natural gas, be used when fields dry up? Is it also possible that a given pipeline might have some form of dual use? Are we talking about an entirely separate infrastructure or about an infrastructure that will be available for both uses?

Can the Minister confirm where the expected storage sites will be, and what state of provenance they have? Are we talking simply of oil and gas fields under the North Sea, or are there other geological structures in which it is anticipated that carbon dioxide might be stored? Given that we are talking about a very long timescale for storage, what evidence exists that the carbon dioxide will not escape, through cracks or whatever?

The impact assessment states, on page 8:

“As the main method of de-carbonising fossil fuel power generation, it will be important that CCS, should it prove viable at a commercial scale”.

That is phrased in the subjunctive conditional. It raises the question: what happens if it is proved that CCS is not viable on a commercial scale? On the previous page, the assessment states:

“CCS is not currently commercial without subsidy”.

It would be helpful to have some idea of what level of subsidy the Government consider may be needed to provide CCS. This is important because, if the Government stick with their position of having no more coal-fired power stations without CCS, and if CCS adds so much to the cost that we do not have coal-fired power stations, we then have to ask what form of electricity generation we will use.

I understand that over the past year our coal-fired power stations have been used more than was expected because they proved cheaper, with the price of gas going up. This has shortened the permitted life of some of our existing coal-fired stations. If we cannot go forward with any coal-fired stations because CCS does not prove to be commercially viable, does this not contain a hidden further increase in electricity prices if we cannot rely on any use of coal generation? Perhaps the Minister could put on the record some comments in response to those questions.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, first, we welcome these regulations and the new clauses on this issue added in the other place to the Energy Bill. They all lead towards ensuring that we have the available infrastructure in place and that necessary powers will be available. The noble Lord knows that we fully support CCS, and indeed that we made a commitment in government to fully fund the first CCS project. The regulations pave the way to that. However, as the comments from other noble Lords have highlighted, they do not remove the uncertainties that remain. Perhaps, in the light of the regulations before us, the Minister will be able to offer some reassurance on when the investment for the schemes will be available, because we have had no information on that yet. The CCS levy has been scrapped, the Government's argument being that the burden on business was unfair. Instead, the taxpayer is now to be funding the scheme through the Treasury but we do not know when that is going to happen, so any clarification from the Minister would be welcome.

I want to ask two specific questions on the order. I understand what the Government are seeking to do here and I support that. I will talk through this and see if the Minister can follow, as I have not given him notification of this question. My understanding is that an applicant seeking access to or modification of a pipeline can seek the approval of the Secretary of State or another consenting authority—it need not be the Secretary of State—if negotiations fail to secure such access or modifications as are required. The legislation before us allows an appeal to be made if the consenting authority, which will mainly be the Secretary of State, thinks that there has been a reasonable time in which to reach that agreement. I hope that would only be in exceptional circumstances as it seems to me that, more often than not, the problems in reaching agreement will be not on technical issues but on the commercial aspects.

The evidence base for decisions determines the criteria on which the consenting authority will make decisions, and it does not include commercial considerations. What if the stumbling block to agreement is not technical in any way but commercial? What if it is about price? It seems very difficult for the Government or any consenting authorities to intervene, as stated in the order. As I read it, the Government would not have the power to intervene.

There may be an intention that there should be a regulator to ensure that the pricing mechanisms are fair but, unless I am misreading something in the order before us or its Explanatory Memorandum, I do not see that. Indeed, if we look at the evidence base for option 2, which is on page 10, the impact assessment says on these issues:

“If the consenting authority is required to determine the financial terms for access or modification for … pipelines and storage sites … they would be guided by principles similar to those already used in other sectors”.

That implies that there is a role for the consenting authority and the Secretary of State to intervene on financial or commercial matters. It would be helpful to have some clarification because I am not sure I really welcome a Secretary of State intervening in commercial decisions. There could be a potential difficulty or a minefield if they are required to do that without sufficient guidance about which criteria they should take into account and how that should be conducted.

My only other question is: in terms of the time allowed for negotiations before the applicant can make an appeal to the consenting authority, will there be any guidance on what is reasonable? It seems that different kinds of applications could take different amounts of time, as some will be more complex than others. If the negotiation is around price, that could make it even more complex as it could be that company A is trying to preserve a position that it may want to take in the future. While I certainly support the principle, I would like some further information on those points if possible.

[Lord Marland]

I am grateful to noble Lords. It is a very opportune moment because, as of this morning, I am in the middle of a two-week lock-in negotiation on the first demonstration project. This morning was spent banging heads together to try and make it work further, but I will explain a bit more about that in a moment.

On the specific points raised by my noble friend Lord Teverson and by the right reverend prelate the Bishop of Chester, whom we welcome as always, the first demonstration project will be using existing pipelines owned by National Grid and Shell. They have great expertise and technology and are very comfortable that they can work. In fact, they have exploratory machines working on them at the moment. One has to rely on great companies to come up with the technology, so the likelihood is that a number of the CCS projects will be able to use existing infrastructure. Of course, that will not always be the case and some new pipelines may have to be built to create junctions or things like that.

The plan for the first demonstrator is to force the carbon dioxide, which becomes more liquefied, into the Goldeneye oil well, located in the North Sea. It is a largely Shell-owned platform. The ownership of it has become a bit more complicated but Shell is operating that end of it. On how we know of its ability to keep the captured carbon in storage, the answer is—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and thank him for being very candid about his own uncertainties on this statutory instrument. I do not think that it is unreasonable to say that he does not have an exact time limit in mind for when a Minister or consenting authority should intervene. “Reasonable time” is a matter of judgment. I apologise if I am missing the Minister’s comments, but I am still not clear about the financial side and when it would be appropriate for a Minister to intervene in a pricing or commercial decision. It seems to me that a significant part of the regulations concerns the ability to intervene if things are not going as we would like, and agreement cannot be reached. I would appreciate it if the Minister would give me more detail or write to me, as it is crucial to the statutory instrument.

[Lord Marland]

With due respect to the noble Baroness, I think that most decisions in which people have to intervene are commercial, so ultimately a commercial decision will have to be intervened on. I can say that it will be a commercial decision. I quite understand that there may be a case for putting a time limit on when the commercial decision is reviewed. Consideration may need to be given as to whether it is an independent authority and when the Secretary of State appoints the independent authority, but these challenges or disagreements always come about through failure to reach a commercial agreement. We are suggesting that the Secretary of State can intervene and bang heads together to make sure that the agreement is sorted out. I am not sure that one can say more than that.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I know that the Minister is trying to be helpful, but there are four criteria in the regulations on which the consenting authority can make the decision if there is a dispute. None of those is commercial or financial, although it does say in the notes in option 2 that it is financial. I am happy for the Minister to take this away and come back to me. I am still not clear, if the regulations do not state that one of the criteria on which the Secretary of State or consenting authority can intervene is financial or commercial, where the authority to do so will come from, when rather than a technical issue it could be the basis on which the Secretary of State will need to bang heads together, to use the Minister’s words.

[Lord Marland]

I am very happy to carry on this conversation with the noble Baroness outside the Committee, but the point I am making is that whether this is technical or financial, it is all commercial. That is the reality. Everything is commercial when it comes to negotiating these things. The noble Baroness is in danger of taking things at face value without looking at the realpolitik. As I say, I do not think that we want to get into the nuts and bolts of the definition of commerciality. I am very happy to carry on this conversation with the noble Baroness through officials, as always.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That would be helpful.

Motion agreed.