Energy Bill
Debate between Lord Berkeley and Baroness Worthington
Baroness Worthington
In response to the Minister’s direct question, we would have a regulator which, when it is asked, “Why can’t you split vertical integration?” answers, “That is a good idea and we will look at it in more detail”, instead of “Because the industry doesn’t like it”. Quite frankly, as I said earlier, when it did a review into liquidity and competition in the market, eight recommendations were made but I think six of them were dropped and the two that were moved forward were watered down. As soon as Ofgem goes and consults its friends in the industry, it gets told, “That’s too difficult—we couldn’t do that”, so things get watered down. That is what we have to break.
For example, the noble Baroness quoted the suggestions that Ofgem has come up with for solving this problem. The market-maker proposals are frankly ludicrous. They are so complex and so against a normal, natural market that I really cannot believe that that is our solution to this issue—actually, I can believe it since it is Ofgem—when the real solution is staring us in the face: no more vertical integration. However, I will sit down.
Lord Berkeley
I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. We have had a very wide-ranging debate with a wide range of opinion. It is really good that we have been able to air it. We have not all agreed but at least we have discussed it. I will not respond to every noble Lord who has spoken—to whom, many thanks—but the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, asked particularly how one decides whether six generators are sufficient for competition. There is no number bigger than three where it matters very much, in my experience. The key is that they are all able to act fairly, simply and transparently.
We have six at the moment, and whether they are in a cartel is not for discussion tonight. That is something for the regulators and the Competition Commission, if there is a complaint. However, what motivated me to put down this amendment is the problem of having a complaint from some of the other generators, which do not have retail outlets, that the system is not fair. They have to be convinced that it is fair because otherwise they will not invest. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but will the lights have gone out before we see the answer? On competition generally, my belief is that it is much better to have a simple structure than devising all kinds of rules and regulations to make sure that a mixed structure will work.
My noble friend Lady Worthington suggested Chinese walls as an alternative to complete separation. Chinese walls work if they are properly policed, so that may be another answer which we should discuss later on. To me, the key is to have a strong and effective regulator that is not captured by the industry. I am not saying that the present one is captured, but the key will be whether we end up with a system where all the independent and other new generators that do not have retail outlets feel so comfortable that they will continue to invest. I hope that they will also multiply rather than what happens on the other side, when they all get bought up by one or two big ones and there is no actual competition. I shall read the Minister’s response with great interest.