Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, does he happen to know whether the Northern Irish legislation includes the person who has the obligation to provide the support? This amendment does not seem to have that. I wonder whether the Minister knows whether the Northern Ireland legislation says who must provide the support.

[Lord Bates]

I always slightly quake in my boots when my noble and learned friend asks me a question, because if I think I have actually understood the question, I am probably overreaching myself in terms of my understanding of it. I think that we are talking about the individual—the noble Lord, Lord Morrow can respond, should he wish, on the specifics of Northern Ireland—and making it clear that the support to be provided is through the care contract, which is currently provided through the national referral mechanism. In addition, there are particular statutory duties, of course, on the part of local authorities to provide social care for vulnerable individuals. I will, again, reflect on that and if there are any changes I will certainly write and clarify the remarks that I have made.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I have a fairly simple question. I have various connections with universities, but I shall not bother with that just now in order to save time. Subsection (2) in the new clause inserted by Amendment 15D refers to,

“carrying out the duty imposed by section 25(1)”,

and goes on to state that “it” must have particular regard to the freedom of speech. “It” definitely refers to the freedom of speech part. I have no difficulty with that. I do not share the difficulty of my noble and learned friend Lord Scott, which is obviously a Chancery difficulty, but my difficulty is fundamental. When carrying out the duty imposed by Section 25(1) may lead you in one direction, the freedom of speech duty may lead you in the opposite direction. In that case, which wins? That is why it is so important that the amendment states that we should,

“have particular regard to it”.

The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, suggested that it should be the top priority where there is a conflict. I do not know what quite what the intention is in that respect, but it is quite obvious that there can be a conflict, and if there is a conflict, what is to happen? With great respect, the Government’s new clause does not so far conclusively answer that question.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for that intervention. He hit upon a real issue, and we are going to have to write on that point. When exploring how to indicate that the commitment to free speech is to be taken seriously and nothing should take away from that, we did not want effectively to phrase the amendment in such a way as to say, a bit like Universities UK, “You can now just disregard it because you can claim everything is free speech and therefore do not need all the rest of it”. This is a serious thing that the Government are saying. We believe that there is a particular risk and that universities ought to have due regard to it. We would like that to be done consistently. That was the reason that we landed upon to,

“have particular regard to it”.

This answers the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and with this I will sit down. You cannot have a debate of this quality, with such incredibly perceptive points being raised, and not be open to it. As I hope I have demonstrated throughout this process since we began our journey at Second Reading, I have tried to listen and have due regard to the views expressed in your Lordships’ House—and nothing will change on that. We will reflect very carefully on the particular points raised. Of course, if there are ways in which we can tighten the language that we use and points to take on board, we still have time to do that, but we feel that in putting forward Amendment 15D, we have something that can give real reassurance to universities in this regard.

Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord was gracious enough to mention that he is not a lawyer, and I join in that fellowship of non-lawyers. I am quickly looking for guidance from my team, but I think guidance is about to come from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I think the situation is that if there is a criminal conviction for a civil wrong that, of itself, will be sufficient to justify the civil action and to permit the judge in the criminal court to make a compensation order. There are arrangements for the proper linking of the two. You cannot get money twice for the same wrong, so there is a connection between the compensation order you can get in respect of the criminal conviction and what can happen in a civil action related thereto.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised questions about whether the existing civil protections are adequate. I have not seen any particular comment on that. I raise that as a question. I am not saying for sure that all the matters covered would be fully covered by the civil law, but I rather suspect that they may well be. The important thing is that a criminal conviction certainly helps in respect of civil action, but it is not necessary to have a criminal conviction to have a civil action. These two are independent.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I could not have put it better myself.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, it seems to me that there is a good deal to be said for consultation in this area, in accordance with the spirit of what was said in relation to the big society, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool has pointed out. I am sure that we very much support what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said about the desirability of reducing the impact of litigation in this area, as that could at best produce only bitterness. Although it might provide rewards for some, it is not a particularly attractive process. Perhaps the consultation should be the responsibility of the Secretary of State rather than of one of the parties given that consultation originated by the Secretary of State, on an application being made to him or her, would be more likely to be regarded as proper consultation than would consultation initiated by the party making the application. Open-mindedness is implicit in the notion of consultation and I am not certain that a party wanting to make an application would necessarily have sufficient detachment to make the consultation effective.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, following that point, we need to be clear what we are consulting about. There has to be meaningful consultation in this regard. If we are dealing with a school judged outstanding by Ofsted, and the governing body and the head teacher have said that they wish to apply for academy status because they believe that it will give them greater freedom, then what exactly is there to consult about? There seems to me to be a strong case there. I noted the comments made about the right of children to be consulted under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. However, who consulted the children when a school was failing? Where was their voice then? Who came round with a clipboard saying, “Tell me what you think about the fact that you’re getting 20 per cent five A to Cs when the guys up the road are getting 60 and 70 per cent?” We have to be clear about what the consultation seeks to achieve and be absolutely sure that we are not trying to delay a process. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and his successor wrestled with that process in relation to the academy programme. Consultation could sometimes go on for years while schools were failing. Where a school body has an outstanding record, the process should be allowed to proceed on the say-so of its governing body. However, where a school is failing, in my view the governing body has forgone any rights in that regard and the Secretary of State has a right to intervene. That is in the best interests of children and parents.