Modern Slavery Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I have Amendment 36 in this group, and I have put my name also to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness. I shall take the amendments in the group in reverse order. Amendment 36 would provide that a compensation order could be made to reflect injury and so on resulting not just from the principal offence, if that is the way that one should describe it, but from other relevant offences taken into consideration by the court when it determines the sentence.

The amendment comes from Section 130 of the 2000 Act, which is the subject of Clause 10(1). When I read that section, I saw the reference to offences taken into account in sentencing and wondered whether it needed to be made explicit in the Bill. If it is implicit, fine; if it is not covered, it should be.

My comment on the noble Lord’s amendment is that while obviously we are on the same page as him, I would hope that any provision that results from this debate will allow for claims not only in the county court but in the High Court. The county court is the court for lower claims and the High Court for higher claims, as is the case with all civil claims. I think that we agree that the damage to individuals can sometimes be very great.

One of many reasons why a civil claim would be appropriate is that those who have survived forced labour, slavery or exploitation have different levels of vulnerability, different reactions and different responses. Some are more resilient than others. Current civil remedies may not provide a remedy for those who are resilient enough not to suffer an injury, such as a diagnosable psychiatric condition.

There are, of course, recognised bases for bringing civil claims in tort, contract and employment, but often they do not adequately reflect the gravity of the situation. I add to the mix the possibility of exemplary damages and perhaps civil remedies being available to be pursued against not only those who committed the offence but those who knew or ought to have known—I am picking up language from elsewhere—of the offence and who have benefited from it.

I conclude by saying that I am aware that, for some, the experiences they have suffered are articulated in comments such as, “Twelve years and no money”. That is the way that some victims are able to put it, because they cannot necessarily express everything that they have undergone, but many years for no pay is something keenly felt, and the noble Baroness’s amendment would meet that.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I wonder whether anything covered under Clauses 1, 2 and 4, creating these criminal offences, is not already, under the ordinary law, a civil wrong. If it is, it would carry a claim of damages and other remedies for civil wrongs with it, such as injunction. If I am wrong about that, this is a good move. On the other hand, if I happen to be right about it, the people who are wronged before this becomes law would have a right of action which the Bill cannot confer on them until it is enacted. I also wonder whether there may be more scope in the civil remedies that exist now in respect of the people who are involved in the perpetration—not the actual perpetrators, but those who organise it and are behind it; they are sometimes called the brains. Whether that is appropriate, I shall not comment. We need to think about that question in relation to this group of amendments. I am all in favour of having people who damage others under conduct which is made criminal by Clauses 1, 2 and 4 being subject to civil action. What I am wondering is whether that is not true already.

[Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, support the noble Baroness’s amendment. These cases are incredibly difficult to investigate and even more difficult to bring to court to a successful conclusion. To have some remedy which would allow more people an avenue to justice, bearing in mind the problem of resources that the police service has at present, surely has to be a good thing. Equally, I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. A large number of people in this country have been damaged beyond our imagination and for them to wait for justice in the way that some of them have to is not acceptable. Sometimes these cases will take year after year to bring to successful conclusions. I for one totally support what the amendment is aimed at doing: to assist those people, either financially or otherwise, to come to a conclusion in some of these cases.

I go back to my original point. These cases are difficult to investigate and take a long time and then people have to come to court and prove the cases. I would add that I went to America in 2004 and can support the American system. I looked at it closely and it works. I think that it has now gone beyond the 33 states to about 42. It works in the American system and may be one thing that we can take back from America to use successfully in this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord was gracious enough to mention that he is not a lawyer, and I join in that fellowship of non-lawyers. I am quickly looking for guidance from my team, but I think guidance is about to come from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I think the situation is that if there is a criminal conviction for a civil wrong that, of itself, will be sufficient to justify the civil action and to permit the judge in the criminal court to make a compensation order. There are arrangements for the proper linking of the two. You cannot get money twice for the same wrong, so there is a connection between the compensation order you can get in respect of the criminal conviction and what can happen in a civil action related thereto.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised questions about whether the existing civil protections are adequate. I have not seen any particular comment on that. I raise that as a question. I am not saying for sure that all the matters covered would be fully covered by the civil law, but I rather suspect that they may well be. The important thing is that a criminal conviction certainly helps in respect of civil action, but it is not necessary to have a criminal conviction to have a civil action. These two are independent.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I could not have put it better myself.