20 Years of Devolution

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Guto Bebb

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The dynamic of change is a critical aspect of how we have accountability, quality of policy and innovation of ideas. We have yet to see that—it can be interpreted in many ways—in Wales. I believe we can very much strengthen democracy in Wales in that respect.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Let us be honest: a change of Government in Wales would demand a coalition between parties other than Labour. Is the hon. Lady of the view that the right way forward should be a coalition, and that that coalition should not exclude the Conservative party?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

From Westminster to every Parliament of the United Kingdom, the adversarial way in which we operate is not serving any of the nations of the United Kingdom effectively. I urge us all to find new ways of working, rather than this duality of adversarialness, which frankly does nothing but score points.

The reforms that Plaid Cymru put to the Senedd yesterday are evidently—it was interesting to hear agreement from Conservative Members—in the interests of our country and of Wales, yet Labour refused to support our motion. Instead, Labour put in place obstacles to avoid achieving immediate reform. Many of us present feel that the need is urgent for Wales. Wales deserves a world-class Parliament and a Senedd that makes decisions in the best interests of the country, not in the best interests of the Labour party.

With the impending threat of a no-deal Brexit and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) as Prime Minister, change is more vital than ever. Brexit has shone a pitiless light on the inadequacies of the UK constitution. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act will, with the aiding and abetting of the Labour Welsh Government, weaken the devolution settlements that the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have enjoyed for the past two decades. Not only did the Labour Welsh Government capitulate on the withdrawal Bill; they withdrew the only means of protection that the Senedd had against the Tory Government: they repealed the Welsh continuity Act.

First Minister Mark Drakeford’s whole argument for repealing the Act was premised on his belief that the Scottish Government would lose the Supreme Court case over their equivalent legislation. He said that if Scotland lost it would have nothing, while Wales would still have its paltry agreement with the UK Tory Government. It is sad to recount that his wager backfired in spectacular fashion. Scotland won the case, meaning its powers are legally protected. It is Wales that is left with nothing, defenceless. We have nothing left but a bad deal that gives away Welsh powers to Tory Ministers, with no guarantee that we will ever get them back.

My party’s position for Wales’s future is clear: we want the people of Wales to run our own affairs. In all honesty, who aspires to come into politics and into government but would not aspire to that? In truth, who would not aspire to that? Sometimes, when we spell this out, we are told that to call for independence is somehow irrational and unreasonable—something to which we should not aspire—but in all honesty, who among us would ever have come into politics unless the people we represent had the chance to represent themselves? Why would we ever tell people that they do not have the means, the means to aspire or the potential—that they do not have it in them to manage their own affairs? That is what motivates many of us here on the Opposition Benches.

I acknowledge that, in the interim, we need a collaborative procedure for the creation of UK-wide frameworks, given that the Government are so determined to press ahead and remove us from the already functioning EU frameworks in which we know where we stand. Such UK-wide frameworks would have a significant impact on the existing evolved devolution settlements and therefore must be created jointly by all the sitting Governments, not dictated from this place by Ministers of the Crown. This is only the first step to ensuring that devolution is not just respected, but upheld in the upheaval that the Government are creating and forcing on us by leaving the European Union.

In future, there must be no first among alleged equals, but equality of respect, means and potential. Welsh democracy is facing its biggest existential threat of its 20-year anniversary. We face a stark choice of two futures: will Wales be a peripheral geographic unit, crumbling under the pressure of an increasingly London-centric Unionist Government, or will we be an independent European nation, with a fit-for-purpose and dynamic Parliament? I know which future I would choose for the people of Wales and the people I represent.

Social Mobility (Wales)

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Guto Bebb

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mrs Moon. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing this important debate, and I am honoured to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), who made a considered and quite inspiring speech.

To speak plainly, responsibility for social mobility lies with the National Assembly. The Welsh Government have a crucial role to play in reducing inequality in Wales, but it is also true that every decision taken in Westminster has a very real impact on people’s prospects in Wales, whether it be on social security, digital connectivity or infrastructure, to name just those areas I intend to concentrate on today. I have to return to my expertise in a former life—I was a director in a large further education establishment—and I must reiterate the integral role that education plays in promoting social mobility.

In one of the earlier speeches, early years, vocational education and higher education were mentioned. Those, in terms of funding, targets, quality of achievement and the curriculum, are entirely within Labour’s remit in Wales. It is important to emphasise that in the role that we expect education to play. I have seen how the effects of the political choices made in different areas of Wales have played out, and it would be extremely disingenuous of me not to remind the Chamber of the role of Labour in that respect. However, today I intend to be “on location” and direct my arguments to the Minister.

One other thing I would like to question slightly is using Oxbridge as our measure of success. It is interesting that so many people here attended Oxford and Cambridge, but we should be building a society where someone can gain that capability and confidence without having public, or private, school education and Oxbridge university education behind them. We should be building that in Wales for our young people to achieve near to their own homes.

In the effort to champion social mobility, redistribute wealth and provide opportunity, every socioeconomic pillar must carry its load. The Government are failing to raise the people of Wales through the measures in their remit of social security, infrastructure and digital connectivity in particular. Changes to social security made by the Government will hit the poorest areas hardest. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies has revealed that Westminster’s benefit cuts will trigger a rise of over 5% in child poverty in Wales, compared to 1.5% in London. Wales remains the only country in western Europe without an inch of electrified railway, and all the while Welsh taxpayers are contributing towards High Speed 2. We hear disingenuous arguments as to how HS2 will benefit us. Frankly, I have concerns about how it will affect services from Cardiff to Manchester via Crewe and services along the north Wales line as well.

Only yesterday, we read reports in the Financial Times that the Westminster Government are having cold feet over the Swansea bay tidal lagoon project—we already had that impression—which is an investment that would bring £316 million of gross value added in its construction alone. What about digital connectivity? Recently, the Westminster Government invested significant sums to improve broadband infrastructure in three of the four UK nations—but not in Wales. They found £20 million for ultrafast broadband in Northern Ireland and £10 million was found for full-fibre broadband in six trial areas across England and Scotland, yet nothing for Wales. According to Ministers, the decision on where to invest the money was based on how likely they believed it was that the investment would stimulate short-term economic growth, effectively to boost headline statistics. That is where the fundamental problem lies and where the link between social mobility in Wales and Westminster’s priority is at its weakest.

It is not the Government’s job to pick who wins and who loses in the British state; it is their job to provide equality of opportunity. There is of course a complex link between regional inequality and social mobility. Poverty in the UK is particularly concentrated in Wales, affecting nearly one in four people, while the UK poverty rate remains at 16.8%. Median weekly salaries stand at £393 in Wales, compared with £434 in England. When I hear about the employment rate, yes, I am delighted that people are in full-time worthwhile work, but I also know of people in my constituency who are holding down three or four jobs in order to make a living. There must be a question about salaries and regional inequality in the United Kingdom.

In the past 10 years, under successive Westminster Governments, productivity in my county of Gwynedd has fallen by 10% while productivity in central London has risen by more than 5%. Unlike the Westminster Government, the EU recognises wealth inequality as a problem to be addressed, and attempts have been made to make up for Westminster’s neglect and to strengthen Wales’s economy by redistributing wealth. I know we discussed the effects of European structural funds. Could we take a step back and consider where Wales would be if we had not received those funds? They were there for the noble principle of addressing inequality and poverty.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is somewhat unreasonable in her comments. The European structural funds were provided to ensure that GDP levels in Wales were comparable with the average of the European Union. That measure failed significantly in the Welsh context, and I want to stress that that was not the fault of the European Union. It failed as a result of the way in which the projects were designed in a Welsh context. That has been the problem.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Again, what would the position of Wales have been if we had not received those funds? We may not agree on the way they were used, but I am truly concerned that we are moving to a future in which there is no principle on addressing and raising those funds.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am coming to a close.

At a time when we are being pulled out of the European Union, the Westminster Government must stick to their promises at the time of the referendum and ensure that Wales will continue to receive every single penny that it received thanks to the EU’s redistributive wealth policies. I beg to ask the Minister to say what Wales’s fair share will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Moon, and to follow the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). I want to ensure that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) is not only congratulated on securing the debate but also has a few minutes to respond at the end of the debate, so my contribution will be somewhat curtailed.

It has been an interesting debate, and I argue that it has been at its best, and the speeches have been at their best, when they have not been partisan. I know I am guilty of being one of the most partisan Members in this place when I want to be, but I will try to respond in a manner similar to most of the speeches we have heard, rather than those with a “Money, money, money” theme, which seemed to be the message from some hon. Members. However, on the whole, the debate has been thoughtful, useful and constructive. I particularly thank the hon. Member for Ogmore, as I have said, for securing the debate and for the majority of his speech, which looked at the core issues at stake. On the whole, it was a constructive speech, although it occasionally fell into supporting the Welsh Government come what may.

The hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) made an impassioned speech on the importance of people being aware of whether they can or cannot take their opportunities for further education. While I would describe the universities in Wales as the elite universities—not least Aberystwyth University, which I attended—the hon. Gentleman made an important point about aspiration. When looking at some of those giants of recent Welsh history, who came from valley communities, slate quarrying villages and farming stock, and who actually aspired to education, we have to ask why we have lost that in the Welsh context. The hon. Gentleman’s comments are well worth further consideration by those who actually take an interest in the goings-on of this place.

I also welcome the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) to the debate. I congratulate him on his work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on social mobility, and I appreciate his interest in the cross-border work of the Wales Office. He made some really important points about the London-centric nature of the UK economy, which I subscribe to. I believe that one problem we have, not only in the Welsh context but throughout the UK, is that we have a London-centric view of the world, which needs to be challenged. The hon. Gentleman is clearly doing excellent work as part of the all-party parliamentary group system here in Westminster. I would argue that most of my constructive contributions in this place between 2010 and 2015 were made through all-party parliamentary groups, so I encourage the hon. Gentleman to carry on with his work and to keep on being involved with us in north Wales, in relation to the potential of the north Wales growth deal.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), who highlighted that many of the issues we have talked about, including educational attainment and training and so on, are devolved to the Welsh Government. That point was worth making. However, at the same time, she was quite happy to challenge me, as the Wales Office Minister representing the UK Government.

At this point, I think I need to once again clarify my point about EU structural funds. I congratulate the hon. Members for Vale of Clwyd and for Caerphilly (Wayne David), and all politicians who ensured that Wales received EU structural funds at the highest level, on their involvement at the time. I have said that on the record time and again. The point I have also made, which is still worth reiterating, is that the reason Wales achieved the highest level of EU funding intervention was to ensure that our GDP was comparable to the EU average.

That was not achieved, so before we ask for more money, we need to ask ourselves why that investment did not achieve the desired goals. It is simply not good enough for the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd to claim that the situation would have been even worse without that intervention; we need to ensure that in the future, if we have intervention through a UK Government shared prosperity fund, that intervention improves the GDP of Wales and the life chances of all people in Wales. We should be willing to learn lessons from the fact that the whole purpose of EU structural funds in Wales did not deliver the growth we were hoping for.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

In the spirit of planning ahead, much mention has been made of apprenticeships today. I represent an extremely rural area, where we have a shortage of skills when we are looking at developing, say, the Wylfa site. We need workplaces in which people can undertake apprenticeships. We do not have those workplaces in north-west Wales in sufficient numbers. Will the Minister commit to looking at creative ways of finding workplaces that will enable young men and women to be trained for engineering and construction in the future?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady makes a point that I fully subscribe to. The Wales Office stands ready to support any initiative in a Welsh context that extends the number of apprenticeship places available. We are certainly of the view that the financial contribution made by the UK Government to the Welsh Government through the apprenticeship levy has been significant, and that money should be spent.

The opportunities that exist in north-west Wales include the development of a new nuclear power station in Wylfa and the work going on in Airbus, with the apprenticeship schemes available at RAF Valley. Those schemes are strong. They are making a difference and showing young people that there is an alternative to going to university. I have seen the success stories in north Wales of Coleg Cambria and Grŵp Llandrillo Menai replicated in south Wales with Coleg Merthyr and other colleges, as a result of my role as a Minister in the Wales Office.

I highlighted, for example, how impressed I was with the enthusiasm and commitment of apprentices when I visited the General Dynamics site in Merthyr Tydfil. That is the way to show young people that educational achievement does not necessarily mean aspiring to Oxbridge. There is no reason why anybody in Wales should not aspire to improve themselves from an educational perspective, but that improvement can happen in their local communities. Opportunities should be enhanced for people to get qualifications in the workplace, ensuring that they are earning while learning.

In Wales, we have some of the better further education institutions. They are doing great work, but they should be fully supported by the Welsh Government in delivering more for the people of Wales. I genuinely thought that the comments from the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) were inspiring. Colleagues have said clearly that we need to sell the concept of going further in education. We need to sell the ability of young people to see themselves attending some of our finest institutions.

We need to be proud of the fact that we have a significant entrepreneurial spirit in Wales. How often is that sold in local schools? The biggest success in my constituency since I was elected has been Sean Taylor, a veteran who left the Army and decided to set up a high ropes training and outdoor pursuits centre. He subsequently created the Zip World business, which now employs 240 people in my constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, 75% of whom are local Welsh speakers. Those people have had an opportunity to work, develop skills and gain qualifications while seeing that setting up a business in their community can make a real difference. I am proud to say that Sean Taylor is the type of entrepreneur who is willing to go out and explain to young people, “You can aspire to university and to a medical or legal profession, but you can also make a big difference in your community.”

I am proud to represent a constituency with one of the highest levels of self-employment. It has been said that in rural Wales, self-employment is often a case of doing anything to earn a living because of people’s pride in themselves and their community, and because no other opportunities are available. We need to make setting up a business and being entrepreneurial a key opportunity for young people to move forward in their communities. Nothing gives me greater pride than when, in my role as a Minister in the Wales Office, I meet young people who have set up businesses in my constituency and across the length and breadth of Wales.

While I thought the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) was somewhat partisan in her comments, I am happy to agree that we need to deal with the lack of social mobility. I want to allow the hon. Member for Ogmore a few minutes to respond, but before I finish my comments, I need to touch on some of the issues raised in the debate. Clearly social mobility is important for this Government. It was said in some of the most thoughtful comments by Opposition Members that nobody in the Chamber can be proud of our record on that issue. If, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, the highest point of social mobility in our history was achieved in 1958, that is a stain on all of us. If, 10 years before I was born, we reached the high point of social mobility in our communities, we genuinely need to ask ourselves what went wrong. No amount of finger pointing between Westminster, the UK Government and the Welsh Government will change anything unless we are willing to acknowledge where we have a weakness.

This debate is entitled “Social mobility in Wales”. We have agreed that education is crucial, and we need to acknowledge that in Wales we are not performing as we should. I am not going to say anything more than that, but we all acknowledge that we are not performing in Wales to the standard of the UK as a whole or the rest of our competitors in the European Union. We need to be very clear about that. When Germany found itself failing under the PISA regime, it acted, and in 10 years it managed to get itself from a very low level to once again leading. The report on PISA in Germany sent shockwaves through the German political system, and the question I ask is: why are those shockwaves not resonating through the corridors of the Welsh Government in Cardiff? We need to do a lot of work on education. It is not perfect in England, but it is certainly not as good as it should be in Wales, and Members should acknowledge that.

Members have highlighted the need to ensure that the concept of lifelong learning is understood. That is why investment in our further education colleges is crucial. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston made the crucial point that education, and certainly education in the workplace, does not end at the age of 18 or 21. It is increasingly the case that 35 to 50-year-olds are looking to retrain. As we are all living longer and expected to work longer, we have to acknowledge that we need to adapt to the workplace. One of the key things I have seen at further education colleges that I have visited in Wales is their commitment to take on apprentices regardless of their age.

Another issue that we need to be aware of is the importance of making work pay. We have seen in Wales since 2010 a significant reduction in the number of children in workless households. That is very important. The Office for National Statistics has highlighted that families in which members are in work are, on the whole, in a position to make more of their lives and have better outcomes than those where that is not the case. Interestingly, the ONS statistics also highlight that, regardless of a household’s income level, where there is someone in employment, outcomes are better. I often hear complaints from the Labour party about the type of jobs being created, but we should always take pride in any jobs that are being created and in allowing people to take care of their own future.

One thing that has come out of the debate is that poverty can be measured in financial terms. I acknowledge that. The hon. Members for Torfaen and for Islwyn and others highlighted the importance of dealing with poverty of ambition. We need to be champions within our communities, highlighting to young people that there are financial difficulties in terms of ensuring equality of opportunity, but also challenging the poverty of ambition that blights too many of our communities in Wales and across the United Kingdom.

Rural Economy of Wales

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Guto Bebb

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I am absolutely delighted to welcome that comment. It was great to see the hon. Member for Wrexham there. In addition, I am engaging with north Wales MPs and there will be a roundtable session in Gwydyr House with the bid authors and north Wales MPs in due course.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) made a very important point in highlighting the fact that growth deals are bottom up. The key thing is that the proposals from north Wales were coming in from local authorities representing the whole of north Wales. Our responsibility down here in Westminster—the responsibility of the UK Government—and the responsibly of the Welsh Government is to work constructively with the partners in north Wales.

This is the template for an approach for mid-Wales. One of the key things I am aware of as a UK Government Minister representing Wales is the importance of ensuring that we do not forget mid-Wales. One of the key things that we highlighted in the Budget is that, although of course we need to deliver a growth deal for north Wales—after all, in the context of this debate, a significant part of north Wales can undoubtedly be described as rural—we also need to deliver for mid-Wales. I want to be able to stand up and say categorically that we will have delivered growth deals for every single local authority in Wales. We have already delivered for 14 local authorities in south Wales. We are working with the six in north Wales, and we are opening the door to a deal in mid-Wales.

We passionately believe that such deals should come from the bottom up. That is why, in the discussions with the leader of Gwynedd County Council and the chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, and in the discussions that Lord Bourne, my fellow Minister in the Wales Office, had yesterday with the chief executive of Ceredigion Council and the vice-chancellor of Aberystwyth University, we were very clear that we do not think that the mid-Wales deal has to be confined to Powys and Ceredigion.

I am sure the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) is aware of examples in Scotland of counties involved in more than one growth deal. We are keen to ensure that if the proposers from mid-Wales say that they want involvement from south Gwynedd—Meirionnydd, for example—Dyffryn Teifi in Carmarthenshire or even north Pembrokeshire, that is something we can look at, because we want to work to deliver the growth deals that are needed in every part of Wales. If people are telling us that the way to do that is to expand or to work as two counties in mid-Wales, we will listen. I am pleased to say in the spirit of co-operation that, over the past few years, the relationship with the Welsh Government Minister for the economy has been extremely constructive.

One thing that has been highlighted in this debate is that we have an east-west issue in relation to economic development. I would argue—perhaps some Opposition Members would agree—that there was perhaps too much emphasis in the early years of devolution on strengthening ties within Wales, which was perfectly understandable. When a new institution is being created for Wales, there needs to be a coherence to Wales. But we also need to recognise the economic realities, including the links between Newport and Bristol, and the cross-border links in north-east Wales. We need to ensure we have a strong Welsh economy that is able to work with our partners in other parts of the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn said that Wales is not a peripheral region. I could not agree more. The north Wales growth deal can link to the northern powerhouse and the success stories that are Manchester and Leeds, and a sector deal for the nuclear industry could make a huge difference not just for north-west Wales, but for the entirety of the north Wales economy and the north-west of England economy. That shows clearly that we are not a peripheral region and that we have a huge contribution to make.

I want to touch quickly on the involvement of universities. The hon. Member for Ceredigion was absolutely right to highlight the importance of universities for economic development. He is fortunate to represent not one but two universities in his constituency. The contribution of Glyndwr University and Bangor University to the north Wales growth deal is an example of what can be done. I was pleased that Lord Bourne met the vice-chancellor of Aberystwyth yesterday, because universities will have a crucial role in any mid-Wales growth deal. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to highlight the importance of the university and further education sector in developing growth deals.

I am aware that time is short, so I will highlight some other issues that were raised in debate. Concerns were raised about broadband connectivity. Listening to the hon. Gentleman, I could be forgiven for thinking that I was listening to his predecessor. Broadband connectivity in Ceredigion is indeed a very serious issue, as it is in many parts of rural Wales, although there are some areas where that is not the case. For example, the connectivity in Aberdaron on the Llŷn peninsular, which is much better than the connectivity in the majority of my constituency, is an example of what can be done. Rural Wales can be served if there is a desire to serve rural Wales, but we need some honesty in this Chamber. For broadband connectivity to be supplied across Wales, there has to be a partnership between the private sector, the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Back in September, I announced the £56 million of addition spending to be made available through the claw-back on the contract with BT, but it is disappointing that that figure was lower than the 11% secured for Wales in 2011 because take-up in Wales had been lower. There has been a lack of transparency in Wales about why and how the priorities for rolling out broadband were set. It is unacceptable that Ceredigion—an area with two universities, which can make such a contribution to our rural economy—has been so ill-served by the way the Welsh Government have rolled out the contract. We can rectify the situation, and we need to do so, but that can be done only if we work together.

I expected that the agricultural sector would be more of a key part of this debate. We understand the importance of the agricultural sector for Ceredigion and most of rural Wales, including Powys. The Government have gone a long way in trying to reassure the sector. First, we guaranteed that the funding will be in place until 2020. We also said that there will be comparable funding until 2022. I hear what the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) is saying about getting guarantees post-2022, but a funding guarantee until after 2022 would be a longer period of certainty than we would have had if we had decided to remain within the European Union. The farming community appreciates that guarantee.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn made an important point, which I am happy to accept, about the importance of ensuring that our share of future agricultural funding is based on the historical trend, rather than a Barnett-based system. The Wales Office and Ministers representing Wales in the Wales Office will be making that case, but we have to do so with sensitivity because we cannot say to the Welsh Government, “This is a chunk of money for you, but you must spend it on this specific area.” If we did that, we would be accused of a power grab.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Will the Minister give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I am afraid I cannot take an intervention from the hon. Lady because I am coming to the end of my speech.

This has been a constructive debate and the Wales Office is more than delighted to continue it with hon. Members. Our door is always open. The way we are working in north Wales and the way we have worked with the city deals in south Wales show what can be done when we work together on a cross-party, cross-governmental basis. I want to be part of a success story in mid-Wales to follow on from the success story in north Wales.