Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Liz Kendall and Sammy Wilson

2nd reading
Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

I will crack on a little, and then I will be happy to take an intervention.

I will now spell out each of the Bill’s measures in turn. First, there are powers to investigate potential fraud. The Bill will mean that, for the first time, the DWP’s serious and organised crime investigators will be able to apply to a court for a warrant to enter and search the premises of suspected fraudsters and criminal gangs to seize items for evidence, such as computers and phones. At the moment, our investigators have to rely on the police to do this. The Bill will enable us to act much more quickly to gather evidence, to take control of and speed up investigations, while also freeing up police time. These powers will be used only when approved by the courts, and the police will continue to be responsible for arresting suspects.

Secondly, the Bill will update the DWP’s information-gathering powers for investigating fraud. At the moment, we have the power to require information from only a limited list of third parties. This does not include key organisations and sectors that could help to prove or disprove suspected fraud, such as airlines.

To add to that, there is limited ability to require responses to requests to be sent electronically. Instead, quite unbelievably, they have to be sent in writing or physically collected, which is time consuming and cumbersome, to say the least. That limitation on our powers completely underlines how the changes in the Bill are long overdue, and the lack of action by the previous Government. The Bill widens who the DWP can compel information from, and it will enable us to require the information to be provided digitally by default.

Thirdly, our new eligibility verification measure will enable us to require banks or other financial institutions to provide crucial data to help identify incorrect benefit payments people might be getting, including fraudulently, such as if someone has too much in savings, making them ineligible for a benefit, or if they are fraudulently claiming benefits abroad when they should be living in the UK. People should not be getting benefits they are not entitled to, and the alerts will make the process of identifying potential fraudsters much simpler, quicker and easier.

However, we know that people lead busy lives and sometimes genuine mistakes happen. The measure will help there too, by finding and putting errors right quickly, preventing people from building up large debts that they then need to repay. I am absolutely determined to reduce benefit mistakes by stopping them from happening in the first place and to avoid debts building up, with all the worry and distress that causes. That is why I have launched the independent investigation into the overpayment of carer’s allowance, in order to learn lessons about what went wrong and ensure that does not happen again.

I want to stress to the House that, under our eligibility verification measure, the DWP will not be able to access people’s bank accounts or look at what they are spending. We will not share any personal information with banks. Once an alert has been issued, any final decision about someone’s benefits will always be taken by a human being and the state pension will be excluded from the measure. There will also be independent oversight of the power on the face of the Bill, with the requirement to produce reports and lay them before Parliament, which I will say more about in a moment.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Minister is outlining the actions she intends to take to ensure that errors do not happen and that humans will conduct any reviews. However, once a decision has been made—whether the error was genuine or not, the person should not have received the money—the Bill sets out that the person is still subject to all the measures that would be imposed on people who have deliberately engaged in fraud. That is the real worry. Despite the Secretary of State’s assurances, errors will still be made. Judgments will have to be made about whether the money, given in error, is recoverable, and if it is recoverable, it will be treated as if that were fraud.

[Liz Kendall]

No, it will not be treated in the same way. There is much more we can do to use technology to prevent genuine mistakes and errors building up in the first place, but we also have to use all the technology and information-sharing abilities we have to crack down on fraudsters who will use anything they can to try to defraud the system. I will come to the wider safeguards in the Bill towards the end of my speech, but my hon. Friend the Minister for Transformation and I will be more than happy to talk to the right hon. Gentleman in more detail about any other concerns he may have.

Women’s State Pension Age Communication: PHSO Report

Debate between Liz Kendall and Sammy Wilson

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

It is true this was a long-running issue, spanning multiple Parliaments, that was delivered to the last Government, and we have dealt with it. We have dealt with it seriously, but also as quickly as we can. We take our responsibilities seriously. It is a difficult decision, but I believe it is the right and fair one.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

How long will we have this Government giving the excuse that they cannot do things because the last lot did not do them? Will the Secretary of State remember that she is now in government? When she was in opposition, she and other members of her party campaigned for WASPI women. The facts have not changed: administratively, mistakes were made and, financially, there is still an impact; and now the ombudsman has found in favour. She cannot hide behind saying that “We have no money”. We just had the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero in questions boasting that he is bunging billions of pounds to power companies, yet we cannot honour the commitments made to people who were wrongly treated in the pensions system.

[Liz Kendall]

I hate to disagree with the right hon. Gentleman, but I did not say it was only about there being no money. I said it was because we do not agree that if we had sent those letters earlier, it would have made the difference that he says, and because, when 90% of women aged 45 to 54 knew the state pension age was increasing, we do not believe a flat rate is pertinent. I say this to him: we do take the public finances seriously. We have to make difficult decisions, and we cannot spend more than we have. We will continue with that approach, but based on our values. We do not believe that what has been set out is the right or fair way forward. I have come to the House honestly to make that decision plain, but I would be happy to talk to him in more detail if he would like.

“Get Britain Working” White Paper

Debate between Liz Kendall and Sammy Wilson

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

Yes. What my hon. Friend and many hon. Members have highlighted today are lots of individual examples of really good working, but we are not joining them up. They are not a central part of our employment system, but they absolutely should be. We know that we need extra investment, and the Chancellor has put £240 million into this endeavour, but we are not getting the most out of the money we are spending because it is not co-ordinated and joined up. That is what we mean by delivering investment and reform together. If it is locally led and involves people who are doing all this fantastic work, we can make a really big difference.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the initiatives and recognise that this is not a problem that has been created by the Government; it has been with us for a long time and started long before July this year. Northern Ireland has the highest level of economic inactivity in the UK, despite the fact that I can think of many initiatives in my own constituency for people with learning difficulties, for apprenticeships in certain sectors, for the work of local colleges and so on. Despite all that, the problem persists—and that is in a place with almost full employment. Can the Secretary of State give an assurance that, despite a Budget that will make it more difficult to recruit, she can set objectives for the number of people she believes can be brought from unemployment into work as a result of the initiatives?

[Liz Kendall]

The right hon. Gentleman raises many important points. As I said earlier, it is absolutely the case that Northern Ireland has the highest level of economic inactivity in the UK. We will set clear objectives for our plans as we work with the devolved Administrations, and at local level, to get the levels of economic inactivity down. That will be challenging because, as I said earlier, only 3% of people who are economically inactive get back to work each year. We need to increase that, and the only way we can do it is by more fully joining up work, health and skills support. Too much of the focus of welfare reform over the past 14 years has been on the benefit system alone. Clearly, the benefit system can incentivise or disincentivise work. We want it to incentivise work, but we also know that we need to join up work, health and skills if we are to get every part of the United Kingdom working again.