Mayoral Referendums

Lilian Greenwood Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Ainsworth]

I am not so sure that I do agree. There are communities that are far more settled—there is more community in existence—and where people will be better known, although in many of our cities that is certainly not the case, because there is a turnover of population and a loss of community. It almost does not matter how long some individuals toil away at leading their city, the majority of the population probably do not know who they are.

I was about to move on to the potential benefits of bridging the democratic deficit, because none of it matters greatly to the majority of the people of this country or to the electorate in such places if it is not making a difference. Irrespective of our political views, how many of us believe that our cities are doing as well as they could? None of us believes that, so we ought to be looking for some improvement, not only for democratic reasons but for economic regeneration and performance.

Coventry, the city in which I was born and raised, is the most central city in England; we have excellent transport links, rail and road, to every corner of the country; we enjoy a pleasant environment for the city—the Warwickshire countryside is second to none—and we have an enterprising population. Why therefore are we not doing better than we are? With leadership, we could be doing that little bit better and be pushing that little bit harder. To return to the issue of democracy, in Coventry we would probably be demanding—with credibility—increased powers to be able to lead the city. In recent years, the people of London have managed to get from central Government increased powers over their own local government, under both Ken and Boris. The people of Scotland and Wales have managed the same, but otherwise our local government is so weak in comparison with Whitehall and Westminster that it has been unable to get the powers that it needs to represent properly its constituencies and communities, which deserve so much.

With a mayoral system, over time, local government would get those powers. I know all the arguments about not much being on offer, but that is not how things work. When we set up the London Mayor, there were far fewer powers than now, but the Mayors have been back to the well and asked for more water, as have Scotland and Wales. Would not powerful mayors in English cities ask for exactly the same? They would, and they would be in a far better position to get it.

Mayors would be a big improvement in how cities are run and in how the country is run. Think of the benefit of powerful people from the provinces—from Bristol, from Leeds—talking to this place from outside London and saying, irrespective of party, “Oi, mate! That ain’t how it works in the real world.” They would be listened to. I am afraid that I do not know who the leader of Leeds is, or of Bristol, although I know the leader of Coventry and who the mayor of Leicester is, but if someone like me, steeped in politics, does not know who the leaders of our great cities are, that is an indication that local government is not punching its weight in our country.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend is making an interesting argument about giving cities more powers. However, in London, the Mayor represents 32 local authorities, which is very different from a city such as Nottingham, which is too small to take on those extra powers. The opportunity should be on offer for city regions, rather than single local authorities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) on securing this important debate.

I want to take part in the debate mainly because my home city of Manchester is one of the local authorities that will hold a referendum on local election day next week. I should start by laying my cards on the table and saying that I have never been a supporter of elected mayors, but if the people of Manchester vote for a mayor next week, I will not lose any sleep over it, because the issue is not massively important to me or people in Manchester. Indeed, apathy has been the big winner so far.

I certainly do not object to holding a referendum on whether local people want an elected mayor, but the nature of mayoral elections means they always end up being about personalities, rather than politics. London is a good example, and the debates going on at the moment clearly show that the issue is personalities, not politics. The debate is not about the merits or otherwise of the policies put forward by the two front-runners, but about whether people dislike the fact that Ken Livingstone has not paid his taxes or think that Boris Johnson should have come home early when the riots started. Transport and other issues that should be debated have fallen by the wayside while people look at the personalities of the two front-runners.

There is a question about whether we should force local authorities to have a referendum against their will, given that plenty are considering going down that route or have already gone down it. In Salford, for instance, local residents triggered a referendum, and an election is taking place next week for a mayor. That said, only 18.1% of the 171,000 eligible voters took part in the referendum. None the less, there was a comfortable majority in support of having a mayor. I rather suspect that the turnout in Manchester will be significantly higher than 18.1%, but only because the vote will be on the same day as the local elections. People will want to participate in the local election, rather than the referendum for an elected mayor, so I seriously doubt whether the higher turnout will mean there is more interest in the mayoral referendum or the idea of having an elected mayor; that will not be what pushes people to take part in next Thursday’s election. Certainly, in my experience of knocking on many doors during the election campaign of the past few weeks, I have not seen massive enthusiasm for the referendum. In fact, only one person has raised the issue with me on the doorstep, and that was someone who simply wanted to know my view. She had no particular view, and was not even sure whether she would vote in the referendum.

[Lilian Greenwood]

The hon. Gentleman’s experience is similar to mine. Does he think that part of the reason is, first, that the Government have not made it clear what extra powers are available, and secondly that they have not consulted local people about the geographic cover needed to reflect what the local community is, and have instead imposed a Whitehall-led model on our core cities?

[Mr Leech]

There are several reasons for lack of enthusiasm. I suspect that in Manchester it is partly to do with the fact that the political parties are concentrating more on the local elections than on trying to force people out to vote in the referendum. I shall come on to that, but I do not believe that we should have the referendum on the same day as the local election. I think that the crux of the problem is that we are not giving people the opportunity to debate the mayoral referendum, because there are other issues that they want to discuss. People are interested in who will be their local councillor—not in whether we shall have an elected mayor for the city of Manchester.

I understand the Government’s argument for holding the referendum on the same day as the local elections, because clearly that saves an awful lot of money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mrs Main, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) on securing this timely debate.

We all accept that there are various systems of local government, one of which—the executive mayoral system—already works perfectly well in a number of locations around the country. Hon. Members have spoken about executive mayors in glowing terms, but they are not necessarily a panacea. They can work extremely well, but so can alternative models of local government.

The previous Government recognised that the executive mayoral local government model has a place and can work well and offer strong leadership, and as a consequence, we legislated for it. As hon. Members have said, a petition needs to be signed by 5% of the population to meet the threshold to hold a referendum, but that is not an insurmountable barrier. If there is strong support in a local area for the introduction of an elected mayoral system, people will put their names to a petition and oblige the local authority to hold a referendum. If there is majority support, a mayor will be introduced. However, even when that 5% threshold has been reached and a referendum has followed, it has not always resulted in the introduction of an elected mayor. It is therefore important to put local people in the driving seat. If people want an executive mayor as their form of local government, they should be empowered to introduce one.

The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) mentioned the possible introduction of mayor in his area. Again, if there is support in the local community, and if he wishes, I urge him to secure a petition and get the 5% of signatures necessary to ensure that a referendum takes place. If there is support for the idea, the hon. Gentleman will have the mayor for whom he wishes.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Cleethorpes on his honesty. It seems that he does not really favour a margin of democracy but wishes to see mayors being imposed. I do not think, however, that that is how we should proceed, and for me it is important to ensure that local people are put in the driving seat, rather than seeking to impose a Westminster template on local people.

On 3 May this year, referendums will be held in the great cities of our country, although I must say that I resent the way that Ministers have imposed them on local communities. As I have said, if there is an appetite for an elected mayor and the requisite groundswell of support, a mechanism is already available to the local community to present a petition and hold a referendum. The Government claim to be localist and it is unfortunate that they are imposing these referendums on our great cities.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) talked about apathy. He makes a strong point because apathy is the real enemy of democracy. Such apathy, however, is not necessarily due to the mechanism through which we organise local government but, at least in my view, to the diminution in the powers available to local authorities and to the way that, all too often, national politicians and the media have continually run down and denigrated local government. I believe that local governments provide an invaluable service to local communities and deliver vital public services. They are a useful mouthpiece for the concerns of local people through the auspices of their locally elected councillors.

It is also unhelpful and adds to that sense of apathy when local governments are seen as a delivery arm for central Government—that applies to both parties, and we must start to move away from that. My right hon. Friend mentioned the difficulty that some people find in identifying their council leader, but to some extent that is also true about people’s ability to name their local MP. It is down to the dynamism, commitment and ability of locally elected representatives—whether councillors, council leaders or MPs—to ensure that their local communities know who they are.

[Lilian Greenwood]

Does my hon. Friend think that it matters if people do not know their council leader, as long as they know their councillor? Is it not more valuable to have 55 councillors coming up with collective solutions, with each bringing up the needs and wants of their ward, than a single elected person who is supposed to come up with all the solutions?

[Chris Williamson]

I certainly think that the role of elected councillors is essential to local democracy. Dynamic and effective local councillors are a useful way for local people to raise their concerns, and more often than not, they are a great advocate for the communities that they represent. As well as asking whether local people want an executive mayor, we should be doing all we can to support, train and provide locally elected councillors with the necessary tools, to ensure that they can represent their communities as effectively as possible.

I do not think that there is evidence of a huge groundswell of support or a great appetite for elected mayors, and that is why I object to the Government’s imposing mayoral referendums. Obviously, if a majority of people support an elected mayor, they will be introduced in those areas. I suspect, however, that in a number of cities around the country, local people will vote to stay with the existing system and reject the Government’s proposal. People want decent public services, and I hope that the Minister will provide some reassurance about that. They want to see jobs and prosperity in their local community, and for their local authority to help secure economic development. That requires strong leadership, which, as I have said, can be provided by an elected mayor, but also by the existing model of a strong leader and cabinet.

We have seen evidence of that system around the country. In my home city of Derby, strong local government leadership has led to the complete regeneration and transformation of our city. The same is true of Nottingham, which is represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), where a real lead was taken to develop the transport infrastructure and the regeneration activities of the local authority have transformed the city. The same is true for Leicester, Manchester and Leeds. The transformational activities of a local authority can be achieved without the introduction of an elected mayor.

The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border touched on the need for us to rebuild democracy and said that perhaps we should look at devolving more powers to local government to achieve that. That is a goal that we should seek to accomplish. A few weeks ago, the Local Government Association published “Local Government’s Magna Carta”, which talked about putting local authority powers on a statutory footing, so that they cannot become a political football or the delivery arm of whichever Government are in power at the time. That is a way to rebuild democracy to support local authorities. Whether we adopt a system of elected mayors or retain the existing system, we need to guard against personality politics, which is the important point made by the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech).

In conclusion, let me mention our party political system. Some hon. Members have been a bit embarrassed about our democracy. They seem to want to move away from our party political system, on which our democracy is based, towards personality-based politics. That is not a healthy way in which to run our democracy. I am proud of our party political system, and if a few more of us stood up for it and recognised that it is the foundation of our democracy, perhaps some of the criticism and the brickbats that we have seen in the media over the past few years would not be quite so pronounced.

Elected mayors have a role to play. They are not a panacea; they are one tool in the locker. Let us not put all our eggs in one basket. Let us allow 1,000 flowers to bloom. If local people want it, give it to them. If they do not, support powers for local government in a different form.

[The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and to respond to what has been an excellent debate with some really first-class speeches. I congratulate my irrepressible hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) on coming back to this subject. He seems to have momentum behind him these days. I had not realised that he had been rested in his political career, but he is certainly back with a vengeance, and I know we can count on his presence for many years to come.

It is an opportune moment to be debating this issue because we have, through the Localism Act 2011, the opportunity to hold referendums on whether there should be a mayor in what was originally going to be 12 of our cities. Already, two of those cities, Leicester and Liverpool, have decided not to wait for the referendum to take place and have, through a resolution of their local councils, decided to go ahead with elections. In the case of Leicester, our former colleague, Sir Peter Soulsby, is now the mayor, and a vigorous election campaign is currently being fought in Liverpool to elect the first mayor on 3 May. In the 10 remaining cities, the choice is there for their people. It is right that the choice rest with the people of those cities, and debates are currently taking place across the country.

There are three broad reasons why it is time for cities to consider the case for a mayor. We would not have created these referendums if we did not think there was strong case for the people voting yes. It is particularly true for our great cities that they do not simply compete as part of the United Kingdom with other countries; they compete with each other—whether Nottingham, Birmingham or Leeds. They compete with Barcelona, Bordeaux, Lyon, Frankfurt, Bangalore, Beijing and Shanghai. They are international cities that deserve an international champion to speak up for them on the international stage.

I was struck by a conversation that I had with Joe Anderson, the current leader and mayoral candidate for Liverpool—he is not a member of my party. He said that the penny dropped for him when he was representing his city at the World Expo in Shanghai. He was there talking to the Chinese authorities, seeking to make the case for inward investment into Liverpool. The officials said to him, “We can’t understand why all of these cities from around the world, Chicago, Frankfurt and so on, have sent their mayor to Shanghai to represent them and you have sent an official from the council.” Then he got into an explanation of the English municipal system, but by that stage the argument was lost and he recognised what was needed.

Last week, we had a debate in Nottingham, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood). When we were talking about this issue, the deputy leader, Mr Chapman, gave us a fascinating insight. He said, “Whenever I’m on the continent and I need to explain who I am, all I say is, ‘Je suis le mayor.’” That says it all; if someone has to claim to be something they are not—something that every other city they are competing against has—surely that makes the case for the prominence internationally that our great cities deserve and have had over the years? Let us bear in mind that the cities we are talking about are already world renowned and they need to continue to be so.

It is important also that those cities have a strong voice domestically. We all know the importance of our great cities. The reputation and standing of our cities is not what it has been in past decades and centuries. Not enough people in the country know what is going on in Leeds or Sheffield. They do not know the industries that are prospering. They do not know that Bristol is one of the most successful cities in the country in attracting investment into digital media. They do not know about the contribution that the digital gaming industries of Birmingham are making in the international world. They need to know not just what is going on there, but who the leaders of these cities are.

My observation as a Minister—and I know this from talking to Ministers from previous Governments—is that the contrast between the volume of the voice of our great cities and that of London is enormous. I dare say that more people in Nottingham, Birmingham, Sheffield and Leeds know the name of the Mayor of London than know the name of their city council leader. That cannot be right, and it is true nationally.

I have noted, as have my predecessors from previous Governments, that when the Mayor of London wants something, we know about it. We have to take the phone call. If we do not, we will find out what is needed for London through a megaphone. The right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) made mention of this as well. Mayors demand more powers. For example, the Mayor of London has made a bold attempt to extend his transport powers. No one invited him to do that. He is perfectly properly standing up for the people whom he represents and, I hope, will continue to represent, and wants to extend his powers further. I want every city to do that. I want it to be a nightmare for Ministers that we have a legion of mayors from around the country banging the table, demanding more powers and making it impossible to say no. The Prime Minister has agreed to create a cabinet of mayors and to allow them to come and sit round the Cabinet table, and it is right that they should do so. The power of the existing mayors is enormous. The budget of the city of Birmingham is £3.5 billion a year, which is more than that of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, in which my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) is a Minister. He may do better trying to become mayor of Birmingham. I am talking about very significant powers.

[Lilian Greenwood]

I thank the Minister for giving way; I am enjoying his speech. If the people of one of the great cities having a referendum next week, such as Manchester, Nottingham or Leeds, decide that they do not wish to have an elected mayor, is he suggesting that the Prime Minister and Ministers will not listen to those voices and invite them round the table?

[Greg Clark]

Of course the Prime Minister will listen to the voice of the cities, but if we are to create a cabinet of mayors—a cabinet equivalent to the Cabinet of Ministers—we want people with a mandate who can speak for all the people in the city. When the hon. Lady talked about Nottingham, I was disappointed that she talked it down. She said that it was too small to have an elected mayor. My goodness, this is a city that has two of the world’s greatest universities, with research and development facilities that are a beacon to the world, two football clubs and test cricket. Nottingham can punch higher than it does at the moment.

[Lilian Greenwood]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I have two minutes left, so I must make progress.

Nottingham could benefit from greater powers. In fact, what the hon. Lady said should be a clarion call to the people of Nottingham to raise their ambitions and to live up to what they are capable of. The city could once again be renowned nationally and internationally. To do that, it can only help to have someone who speaks for the whole city and who has a four-year programme that they have put before the people to bring change to the city. That will be available to every city after the referendums next week. I hope that the people will take the opportunity to say yes. In 100 years’ time, in all of these cities that say yes, we will look back on a succession of mayors to whom people are erecting statues because they have done great things for their cities. We will look back at an historic change that will be for the good of the cities and for the whole United Kingdom.