Northern Ireland

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

It is important for us to recognise the reasons why we have got to where we are on this. I do recognise that Sinn Féin’s change of mind on welfare reform has played an important part in destabilising relations between parties. One cannot have a coalition that works effectively if it is incapable of delivering a workable budget.

In answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s last questions, of course I will continue to engage with his party and others to discuss how we ensure that we have an effective talks process in which all parties can engage with enthusiasm and determination.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

The Secretary of State said that she was very reluctant to reintroduce direct rule, and rightly so. I speak as somebody who led for the Conservative party for a number of years when major decisions on Northern Ireland were taken upstairs in a small room with very few Members of Parliament present, even fewer Members from Northern Ireland present, and nobody from the Assembly able to influence the affairs of Northern Ireland. Has she been able to put it to those taking part in the talks that the very stark choice is that either we make the institutions work or we go back to that very unsatisfactory way of governing Northern Ireland?

[Mrs Villiers]

I firmly believe that no one wants to wind back the clock and go back to direct rule. As I have said, there are difficulties and frustrations with power-sharing and inclusive government, but it is hugely preferable to direct rule. That is one of the reasons why the Government are determined to work as hard as we possibly can with Northern Ireland’s leaders to find a way through to ensure that the Executive and the institutions can continue to work effectively to deliver on their priorities for the people of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland: Political Situation

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I thank the shadow Minister for his support. Let me deal with his questions.

In relation to the existence of the provisional IRA, my assessment is the same as that of the Chief Constable, and the assessment that I have been given by security advisers during my time as Secretary of State is broadly in line with the summary given by the Chief Constable that I outlined earlier: the continued existence of some organisational structures, with no involvement in paramilitarism or terrorism, but with individual members pursuing criminality for personal gain to pursue personal agendas.

As for the IMC, it is an important issue to consider, and I think that we would want to consider it as part of the talks. It may well be the case that if an IMC-type body were set up, we would want to ask it different questions from those that were asked by the IMC; but it is, of course, a model that we should consider when proceeding with the important process of dealing with the issues related to continuing and wholly unacceptable paramilitary activities.

The hon. Gentleman asked at what point the Northern Ireland Executive would become unsustainable. I am afraid that it is already unsustainable. There are already Ministers who feel that they cannot sign off projects because of the uncertainty surrounding the future availability of funds. I think that those matters are very urgent.

I am conscious that the issue of suspension is very sensitive. I have received representations on it from the Democratic Unionist party. I understand the DUP’s concerns, but the Government do not feel that it would be right to suspend the institutions at this stage and in these circumstances. If the circumstances were to change in the future, we would of course need to look at all our options.

As for the welfare reform matters, I said that we would be prepared to legislate as a last resort, but we are not at that stage yet. My priority will be working with the parties to find a way to ensure that the welfare package in the Stormont House resolution is implemented, because it is a good deal for Northern Ireland. The voluntary redundancy scheme is expected to start its operation with the first participants leaving their roles at the end of this month.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

One of the worrying aspects of this whole situation is the lack of respect and lack of confidence that people in Northern Ireland now have for the institutions, and that makes it very important that we move those institutions towards becoming efficient decision-making bodies so they can enjoy some successes. Does the Secretary of State agree that that evolution is best carried out with the institutions up and running, rather than attempting to do it from a standing start?

Oral Answers to Questions

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 24th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

The best way to take forward reform of parades adjudication is, of course, through the Stormont House agreement. I understand that the Office of the Legislative Counsel has been preparing the options for which it was tasked, under the agreement, for reform of parades legislation. I hope that they will be published soon. Alongside others, I will take part in the debate about what a reformed system of parading would look like and how it would work. In the meantime, it is crucial for us all to work together to encourage a peaceful parading season, where determinations are obeyed and any protests and parades are both peaceful and lawful.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

With regard to setting the budget and many other decisions that need to be taken, is not the fundamental problem that the Assembly and the Executive were designed for the very good reason of bringing people together, but that that does not make for an efficient decision-making body? What thought has the Secretary of State given to how we might move forward to a position in which the Assembly and the Executive can take decisions on a day-to-day basis?

[Mrs Villiers]

These difficult decisions on living within one’s means are more challenging in a situation in which there is a broad coalition and multiple vetoes. Where there is the political will, however, it is perfectly possible for the Northern Ireland Executive to pass a sustainable budget and implement the Stormont House agreement. That is why it is very important for the two nationalist parties, Sinn Féin and the SDLP to live up to the undertakings they made. The Stormont House agreement was a good deal for Northern Ireland. It was rightly praised by Sinn Fein when it was agreed, and now it needs to get on and implement it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

As the right hon. Gentleman will know, because he will have read the Stormont agreement, this item was left largely unresolved, although open. I am afraid to say that the problem revolves around the definition of victims, notwithstanding the 2006 order. That is work in hand and it is something that we will have to return to.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

May I join the Minister in paying tribute to all the many charities and voluntary organisations in Northern Ireland, which, as he rightly says, have done so much invaluable work over the years? What recent review has he done of the potential for the Civic Forum for Northern Ireland to contribute to bringing people together in Northern Ireland?

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is right to refer to the Civic Forum. It is clear that we need to hear those voices in Northern Ireland, which is a part of the United Kingdom where politicians are not necessarily all held in high regard, Members of this House excepted. It is important that we look for alternative voices, and I am sure that in the months and years ahead, with the assistance of the Stormont House agreement, that civic voice will be heard more and more.

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

That was exactly the point I was going to make. Having said that there are exceptions to this, the exemptions are important because one of the fastest-growing sectors in the higher wage end of the Northern Ireland economy has been those back-office financial services jobs. We would not want to lose the ability to attract them. There is provision in the Bill to allow for that. Whether they are brought as separate or spur companies to the main company, they will nevertheless be subject to the new regime.

There are some dangers. One danger we have heard about time and again—it was alluded to by the shadow Secretary of State—is the potential loss of public sector expenditure. Under the Azores ruling, we will have to pay for whatever the forgone revenue happens to be. That will depend on the rate we eventually set. At maximum, it could be about 3% of the current revenue budget available to Northern Ireland. In the current circumstances, to try to find that immediately would be very difficult, which is one reason why the decision to introduce this will not be implemented until at least 2016-17. That will give the Executive time to plan.

We must remember, however, that the reduction in the block grant and money available for public expenditure in Northern Ireland will be offset by the expansion in other parts of the economy. Yes, that is a gamble, but can we politicians in Northern Ireland sit on our hands and do nothing, knowing that public expenditure is going to tighten, regardless of whether there is a Labour or Conservative Administration, given how heavily reliant we are on public expenditure? That would be wrong. The shadow spokesman wants to know the reason for my alleged conversion. This is one of the issues to weigh in the balance. Can we just drift along, knowing that regardless of which party is in government at Westminster the public sector is going to contract, and make no provision for expanding the private sector?

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. On the reduction in the block grant, however, we do not know what the block grant will be in 2017. It might be higher than expected, in which case perhaps the consequential drop would not be felt. It could also be argued that the recent agreement at Stormont House already mitigates any reduction.

[Sammy Wilson]

Given the comments from the hon. Gentleman’s party and the Labour party, I suspect the grant will not be higher. Furthermore, we still have to deal with our dependence on public sector expenditure. It is being squeezed all the time, and therefore we need to look at rebalancing the economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who drew on his experience in the Northern Ireland Assembly to make a very useful speech. I also congratulate the Secretary of State on introducing the Bill, which has taken a good deal of skilful negotiation, and on doing so before the election. It would have been easy to push it back. I think the whole House is grateful to her.

I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). I had the pleasure of working with him in opposition when he thought outside the box and came up with this idea. Yes, it had been discussed to some extent, but it had not been fully discussed in this place. At the time, there was opposition, as there always is when somebody comes up with a radical new idea, but he had the foresight, determination and courage to press ahead, and when he became Secretary of State, he made it clear that it was one of the most useful things we could do for Northern Ireland. We are now seeing the benefit of his work.

A few years ago, this proposal was the first thing the Select Committee looked at when we wanted to find something that moved us away from the orange and green issues and the security situation—serious though it was—to look at different ways of helping the people of Northern Ireland. We thought that the economy was one way we could do that. We took evidence from a great many witnesses—businesses, trade unions and very many other people—and eventually came up with a report that recommended the devolution of corporation tax to the Assembly. I should point out that it was not a unanimous decision. Several Committee members had concerns or reservations, a number of which have been addressed by the hon. Member for East Antrim. However, we felt that the benefits would be overwhelming and that we could address the problems that the decision might throw up.

As has been said, Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom that shares a land border with another country, and that country happens to have corporation tax at a much lower rate. As has been pointed out, southern Ireland—the Republic of Ireland—stuck to that policy through thick and thin. I remember going to see the EU Commissioner when the Select Committee was looking at the issue. He was rather dubious about the Republic of Ireland’s low level of corporation tax and expected that it would have to roll over, give way and increase the rate. However, as I said to him, that might have been okay in the short term, but what would it have done for the Republic of Ireland’s longer term prospects? I am glad that that country won the day.

I recognise—I say this as a Unionist—that there was some concern about setting the rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland to match that in the Republic, as though that was somehow giving up or compromising on Britishness. It is nothing of the sort. We have a single electricity market across Ireland. Ireland is promoted as one for tourism—I think we could do more on that—and there are experiments with common visa arrangements. All that is sensible. To me, that is not about green or orange; it is not about Britain or a united Ireland. These are sensible measures. Giving the Assembly the ability to cut the rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland to compete with the south would be a simple and sensible arrangement, and there is a need to do it.

As we have seen from the economic statistics, which have been discussed in the House and repeated many times, Northern Ireland lags behind on many measures when compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. It is doing okay—it is improving and getting there—but it really needs a boost to move it along rather more rapidly. That is why, interestingly, as well as most members of the Committee and most witnesses agreeing with the proposal to devolve responsibility for corporation tax to the Assembly—along with every political party in Northern Ireland, which is rather unusual—the Irish Government agree with it too. I have heard the Taoiseach on more than one occasion say that he thinks it would be a good idea for Northern Ireland to be able to have the same level of corporation tax. He does not see it particularly as a threat; he sees it as a sensible move.

The Committee also found that corporation tax in itself is not necessarily the silver bullet. It is not going to transform the whole economy—other measures are needed, such as improvements in the planning regime and many other areas—but it is a good headline grabber. It will grab the attention of the business world, and that can only be a good thing. For example, just a few weeks ago the Committee travelled to Belfast and had a meeting with Senator Gary Hart, who was over to help with the discussions. We put the point to him, and he said the change would remove one of the reasons for not investing in Northern Ireland, because when people look from afar and see the island of Ireland, where are they going to go? Of course, other factors come into play too, but if corporation tax is 12.5% in the Republic and 20% in Northern Ireland, surely that is a draw towards the Republic of Ireland. He said he would be willing to try to set up a trade delegation from the United States to come to Northern Ireland with a view to exploring the investment opportunities. That has to be a very positive move indeed.

Again looking from afar, it is not just that Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland that is a compelling reason for making this move. Northern Ireland is also part of an island off an island. If it is exactly the same as the rest of the United Kingdom, what is the benefit of investing in Northern Ireland? We have to ask ourselves that question. What will draw companies to Northern Ireland rather than investing on the mainland? If everything is the same, perhaps they will not do that, but if things are more attractive in Northern Ireland, surely companies and investors will consider their options in the Province. To an extent, it is the same with the United Kingdom, which is one of the very many reasons why I am not for making ourselves exactly the same as the European Union. If we are exactly the same as mainland European countries such as Germany or France, what is the attraction of coming to the United Kingdom and investing here? There has to be a reason for people to come here, and it is up to us to give them that reason.

I want to touch on another point, which is slightly off the issue, but which is important when we consider the extent of the benefit that reducing corporation tax might bring. When we were in the United States on a Select Committee visit about 18 months ago, we discussed this issue—very positively—and a number of others, but one thing that came up time and again was the violent scenes that we see on our television screens and which are flashed across the world. No matter what this place or the Assembly does on tax or any other incentives, it is destroyed in a single night, with a single vision of any violent scenes or paramilitary activity that is flashed across the world. Nothing could drive people away from Northern Ireland in a worse way or more quickly than that. Anybody in a republican organisation or a so-called loyalist organisation who engages in such activity is betraying the people they purport to represent. They really ought to bear that in mind.

There are a number of issues that perhaps need to be looked at in greater detail. I am not making a criticism, but I would ask the Secretary of State whether she has given any thought to how the Bill might be considered during its Committee stage. As I understand it, it will be considered in Committee upstairs. However, there are a number of issues that still need discussion, so it might be an idea to consider holding the Committee stage on the Floor of the House. As we move towards the election, sometimes the Chamber is not as heavily used as it might be at other times. Maybe we could consider discussing these issues in a way that allowed all Members to take part, rather than just a few Members upstairs.

I understand why this change cannot be introduced absolutely straight away, but I am a little concerned that it is being pushed back two years. A lot can happen in two years. However, while we have the full agreement of people in all the political parties in Northern Ireland—on this issue at least, if not on any other—let us take advantage of that. Let us drive this forward as quickly as we can.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that, first, budgetary planning must be put in place to deal with the payment that will come off the block grant? Secondly, as many firms make investment decisions over a long period, it makes sense to announce the change soon, but for payment to be in two years’ time, because that will reduce the cost to the Northern Ireland Executive, while at the same time attract firms that are thinking about investment now, but which will perhaps not implement it for a couple of years.

[Mr Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very reasonable point, which I suppose goes back to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire, who said we should get on at least with saying what we are likely to do, as that will start the ball rolling.

We also have to be careful not to expect too much of the Assembly when it comes to looking like an efficient decision making machine and getting this matter devolved. As everyone in this House knows, it was not designed for the purpose of being an efficient decision making machine; it was designed to bring people together to bring about peace, and there can be no greater cause than that. That issue has already started to be addressed through the Stormont House agreement; nevertheless, the Assembly is not the most effective machine. It has its problems—there is of course the need for votes on both sides to be in a majority. All that is not how this place works; nor would we get very much passed if we worked in that way. The Assembly was set up in that way for a different purpose, so I do not think too much store should be set by that. We should get on with this proposal in any case.

There are other important matters, including planning. Skills and education are important, too. We must ensure that we have a skilful and well educated work force in Northern Ireland, and then it becomes important for Northern Ireland to retain the people it educates. So many times we see a number of countries training and educating their people well, only to see them attracted to work abroad rather than bring the benefits of their skills and education to their own country. We need a peaceful society in Northern Ireland for that to happen—otherwise we will continue to lose people—and we need to create the sort of prosperity that people want to enjoy. If we can do all that, I think we will ensure that future generations are able to enjoy greater prosperity and greater peace than was available to past generations.

On-the-Runs Scheme

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

As is clear from the conclusions of the Hallett report, this letter should not have been issued; it was issued in error. For a number of reasons I do not think it would be appropriate to make public the names of the individuals who received letters under the scheme, not the least of which is that doing so could prejudice a future prosecution and make it more difficult to secure a conviction.

In relation to the number of errors, Lady Justice Hallett identified in her report two errors in addition to the one made in the case of Mr John Downey. She also identified a further 36 cases considered by Operation Rapid where she believed there was a risk that the wrong test had been applied. She did not conclude that there were actually errors in these cases, but she proposed that they should be a priority for further investigation because the risk of error in those cases was higher than in others.

In relation to legislation, as I briefed the House in September, it is clear to me that the most effective means to guard against future collapses of trials and future abuse of processes defence is to issue a clear statement indicating to anyone who received a letter under the scheme that it is not safe to rely on those letters—that they should not be relied on—and that is what I did. The option of legislating on these matters was carefully considered, but the conclusion is that legislation would not be as effective as a clear statement at the Dispatch Box that the scheme is at an end and these letters should not be relied on, not least because of a risk that errors have been made in other cases.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for the response to the urgent question. She will be aware that as well as the 36 cases identified by Hallett as being perhaps the most worrying, we were told by the then assistant chief constable, now the deputy chief constable, of the PSNI that 95 people who received letters are connected through intelligence to almost 300 murders. That is a very serious situation indeed. Will the Government ensure that the PSNI has the full resources to look into all those cases not in the period of as long as nine years that the PSNI estimates it may take it, but very quickly so that the Government can decide whether there is a need for legislation to make it absolutely clear that nobody can rely on these letters to protect them from prosecution?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs for his question. It is of course important that the PSNI has appropriate resources for its investigations under Operation Red Field relating to OTRs, as is the case for all other matters for which it has responsibility. I welcome the fact that the agreement on a final budget for the Northern Ireland Executive for 2015-16 allocated an additional £20 million to the PSNI. There is also the Stormont House agreement, which commits the Government to contributing £150 million to aid Northern Ireland in its treatment of legacy cases. I will look carefully at how that money should be appropriately deployed in the coming weeks.

On the question of legislation, I do not think I can really add to my previous answer. Having considered this carefully, the most effective means to ensure that we do everything we can to remove barriers to justice is a clear statement indicating that this scheme is at an end and these letters should not be relied on. That is what I have done. Legislation would not take us further and, I believe, would not be the right option in this instance.

Stormont House Agreement

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his expression of support for much of what is in the agreement, and for his kind comments about the work in which I and Minister Flanagan took part. As ever, I refute his allegation of a period of disengagement. At no stage have this Government been disengaged from Northern Ireland. We have actively worked throughout our time in office, not least in agreeing an economic pact that saw us working more closely with the devolved Executive in Northern Ireland than ever before, in addition to bringing the world’s media to Northern Ireland for the tremendously successful G8 conference.

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments about progress on budget matters. Those on both Front Benches are united on the point that there will be no blank cheques, and the Government have put forward a significant and important financial package, reflecting Northern Ireland’s specific circumstances. I was disappointed to hear his comments on corporation tax devolution, because I think that change could have a significantly transformative effect on Northern Ireland’s economy. Northern Ireland is in a unique position in the United Kingdom, because it shares a land border with a jurisdiction that has a much lower rate of corporation tax. I urge the hon. Gentleman to urge the shadow Chancellor to allow Labour to support that change, which I believe is good for Northern Ireland.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the implications for the block grant. The Azores criteria mean that any future reduction in corporation tax in Northern Ireland needs to be funded from the block grant. Various estimates have been made of what that might look like, but at this stage it is impossible to be certain, not least because no final decision has been made on what the rate would be reduced to.

On the criteria for calculating welfare shortfall payments, the £114 million due in financial year 2015-16 is dependent on progress on implementing welfare reform. The quicker welfare reform is introduced and is up and running, the lower the shortfall payment will be. The time scale on the past is a key point, and the Government are keen to start working with the Northern Ireland Executive on the work needed for those institutions. They will certainly need Assembly legislation and in all likelihood they will also need Westminster legislation, and we are getting on with those matters.

The agreement sets out provision for a commission on flags to be established by June, and it is important that we press ahead with that. There is clearly more work to be done on that issue and on parades, and the agreement provides for further work by the Office of the Legislative Counsel of the Executive, bringing forth options that can then be consulted on for reform of the parading system. The process for monitoring will start with its first meeting between the Executive and the Government by the end of January. The final paragraphs of the main part of the agreement set out a system for monitoring implementation, and that will be taken seriously by the Government. It will, of course, involve the Irish Government, where appropriate and consistent with a three-stranded approach, and we look forward to getting down to work with the Executive on those matters.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for providing an advance copy of her statement. What discussions has she had with the parties in Northern Ireland about moving the Assembly and the Executive towards becoming a more efficient decision-making body?

[Mrs Villiers]

My hon. Friend will find a section in the agreement on that. There is a commitment to draft a protocol on the use of the petition of concern, and to set out more clearly the sorts of issues on which it should be deployed. There are important changes to the way the Executive work, so that Ministers from the smaller parties can get business on to the agenda. There are proposals for reform of the MLA expenses system, and a commitment to a future reduction in the number of MLAs. I am sure that more could be done in terms of institutional change, but the agreement is a real step forward. In particular, I draw the House’s attention to the provision for an official Opposition for the first time in the history of the devolved institutions.

Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I can provide the right hon. Gentleman with reassurance that the Prime Minister has not walked away; he continues to follow these matters with the greatest of attention, because he cares about Northern Ireland and wishes to see a successful conclusion to this process. The reality is that both he and the Taoiseach made a realistic assessment on Friday morning that the parties were still far apart on a number of issues, and there was an indication that on some key issues some parties were simply not prepared to move. In particular, it was very difficult to see that Sinn Fein was prepared to move on matters relating to welfare reform.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

Is not one of the deeper and wider problems in Northern Ireland the fact that the Assembly and the Executive were set up in the way they were, although for the very laudable reason of bringing about peace and bringing people together? Does the Secretary of State agree that that model is not a good one for effective and efficient decision making? Is she discussing with the parties of Northern Ireland ways in which changes might be proposed by them that might move us towards a more efficient system?

[Mrs Villiers]

I have had those discussions at great length, including discussions about how to amend the petition of concern process. The Chairman of the Select Committee is right to acknowledge that the institutions set up to secure a peace settlement can often find it difficult to take difficult decisions, but they are capable of it; adaptations can be made. However, improving the way the institutions work will be an important part of an overall agreement.

Oral Answers to Questions

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

It is very important that political parties in Northern Ireland find a way to agree a fresh approach to the past, and that is one reason why cross-party talks have been convened. We need to listen to the needs of victims, and we must also understand the increasing pressure on the PSNI and the criminal justice system. I believe it is important that we find a way forward on that, not least to relieve pressure on the PSNI so that it can concentrate on the important policing needs of today.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that she will be having discussions with the Executive about Operation Red Field?

[Mrs Villiers]

I have regular discussions with the PSNI on the question of on-the-runs and Operation Red Field, and I will do so again. It is crucial that the Executive parties reach an agreement on the budget for next year, and that they take into account the crucial importance of appropriate resourcing for the PSNI, and of course the cost of policing the past.

JTI Gallaher

Laurence Robertson Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. Government policy should be based on evidence. If there were evidence to show that plain packaging will reduce consumption, the Government would have every right to attempt to implement the policy. But given that it is basically guesswork, and that the trial on the ground in Australia shows that consumption is not decreasing as a result of plain packaging, but that illicit trade is increasing, the Government should take stock immediately.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

rose—

[Ian Paisley]

I give way to the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

[Mr Robertson]

As a fellow member of the Select Committee, does the hon. Gentleman remember that when we looked into the illicit trade issue and interviewed the head of the relevant department in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, his view was that plain or standard packaging would actually increase counterfeiting and the illicit trade?

[Ian Paisley]

The hon. Gentleman is making my case for me. He is clearly demonstrating, through his knowledge of this subject and what HMRC has told him that the Government’s policy is wrong-headed and will not prevent people from smoking. I say again: I want to see a reduction in smoking, but we have to have a policy that works and is proven to work. The evidence is not there to achieve the Government’s policy.