European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lady Hermon and David Davis

Ping Pong: House of Commons
Wednesday 20th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

The right hon. Gentleman has prefaced perfectly the rest of my speech, because that is precisely what I shall spend the next 10 minutes explaining to him.

I think that the additional provisions speak for themselves. Our proposed amendment creates a formal structure, set out in law, for Parliament to express its views in all the various scenarios that might come to pass in our exit from the European Union, but it also passes the three tests that were set out by me and by the Prime Minister.

I am glad to see that the amendment sent back to us by the other place accepts the vast majority of these provisions. The core of the disagreement now focuses on the exact nature of the motion offered to the House if any of the unfortunate circumstances that I have previously mentioned come to pass. Our amendment offers those motions in neutral terms. Questions have focused, understandably, on whether that means that they would not be amendable. Members will, of course, be aware that it is not within the competence of Governments to judge whether amendments can be tabled to motions, but for the sake of clarity, let me quote from Standing Order No. 24B:

“Where, in the opinion of the Speaker or the Chair, a motion, That this House… has considered the matter, is expressed in neutral terms, no amendments to it may be tabled.”

I have written to the Chairman of the Procedure Committee setting out how the Government understand that this process will operate in practice and have laid a copy of that letter in the Libraries of both Houses.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am enormously grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me to intervene so early in his important speech.

I am most unhappy about the repetition by the Prime Minister, and by others in the Government, of the mantra “no deal is better than a bad deal”. I should like the Secretary of State to give a guarantee to the people of Northern Ireland that the Government whom he represents here today will not be gambling with the constitutional status of Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. No deal would lead to a hard border, which would inevitably be exploited by Sinn Féin and by new IRA dissenters. I need that guarantee.

[Mr Davis]

The hon. Lady can be sure that we will not be gambling with the status of the border. I shall come back to the issue of no deal in a moment, because it is central to much of the issue of the amendability of motions.

EU Exit Negotiations

Debate between Lady Hermon and David Davis

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Yes, my hon. Friend is exactly right. That is pretty much what Jean-Claude Juncker said yesterday.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Although I readily accept that there are 10 duly elected DUP Members in this House, nevertheless the DUP does not speak for or represent all the people of Northern Ireland. Will the Secretary of State therefore take a few moments to explain to the House, and particularly to all the people of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, the benefits for the whole country of the proposals the Prime Minister took to Brussels yesterday? I was profoundly embarrassed on her behalf.

[Mr Davis]

The aim for the whole country, as the hon. Lady says, is to maximise the trade benefits of being outside the customs union and the single market, while maintaining as much as possible the benefits we currently enjoy. That is the aim and that is what we are heading towards. I am pretty confident that that is what we will achieve.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lady Hermon and David Davis

Thursday 7th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

In a moment.

The Government’s aspiration is to agree a new deep and special partnership with the European Union. Under the article 50 process, we are negotiating a withdrawal agreement with the European Union. Provisions of that agreement will need to be implemented in domestic law, and some of that will need to be done before exit day. Given the timetable set by article 50, it is prudent to take this power now so that we are ready, if necessary, to move quickly to implement aspects of an agreement in domestic law. That will be particularly important if the negotiations conclude late in the two-year period. This power will help to ensure that the UK Government and devolved Administrations can implement the outcome of the negotiations. The power is limited; it will be available only until exit day, at which point it will expire. It is aimed at making the legislative changes that absolutely need to be in place for day one of exit to enable an orderly withdrawal from the European Union.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

rose—

[Mr Leslie]

rose—

[Mr Davis]

I will give way to the hon. Lady.

[Lady Hermon]

I have listened patiently to the Secretary of State, who has waxed lyrical about these regulations and delegated legislation being just standard. They are not just standard. I would like him to say something about the status of the delegated legislation made under clause 7, which gives it the status of an Act of Parliament. This is an attempt by the Government to oust review. I would like him to elaborate on that very important issue.

[Mr Davis]

I am afraid that that is not correct. The point was made by another Member—it may even have been what the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Mr Leslie) wanted to say—about the ability to change bits of primary legislation. The simple truth is that that is a fairly standard set of words used in such legislation. The Enterprise Act 2002 and the Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Act 2010—both Labour Acts—contain such wording. It is the normal routine, because we want to make sure that nothing in the Bill prevents us from entering a transition phase, for example, or going into the next phase of negotiations.

Article 50

Debate between Lady Hermon and David Davis

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I think the British public will be looking at both Houses and expecting them to do their democratic duty properly, which means not to thwart the Bill or delay it unnecessarily, but to undertake a proper process of scrutiny and then to deliver on the will of the people.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Supreme Court has ruled very clearly today that the devolved legislatures do not have legislative competence and capacity in relation to the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. Therefore, it must follow logically that the procedure called EVEL, but known by its long title as English votes for English laws, should not be applicable when we come to the great repeal Bill. EVEL as a procedure is deeply divisive in this House, and it is demeaning to Members who represent Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Given that the Secretary of State has said—and I believe him—that every effort will be made by this Government to hold together the United Kingdom, it would be helpful if the Brexit Secretary clearly ruled out the use of EVEL on the great repeal Bill?

[Mr Davis]

I cannot off the top of my head think of a circumstance in which EVEL would apply, but it might do so. The point I would make to the hon. Lady is that that rests on a ruling by the Speaker, not by a Secretary of State.

New Partnership with the EU

Debate between Lady Hermon and David Davis

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Of course.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Secretary of State and indeed the Prime Minister are very keen to repeat that no one wants a return to the borders of the past between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Of course no one wants a return to those borders, with Army patrols and all the rest of it, but the reality is that we cannot have a return to the border of the past because we do not have the Army watchtowers. They have gone, but dissident republicans have not; they have murdered two prison officers in the last four years in Northern Ireland, so this is a really serious issue.

I do not want to go back to that very hard type of border, but the border is porous in South Armagh, and there is 300 miles of porous border. If we are not going back to the borders of the past, are the British Government proposing to outsource our immigration control to the Irish Government when it comes to Limerick, Dublin and Shannon? What are the British Government going to do? I hope that some light is thrown on this in this debate today, because I am so tired of hearing that soundbite: “No one wishes to return to the borders of the past.”

[Mr Davis]

The first thing to say is that there is, of course, an open border now. I do not wish to give the hon. Lady soundbites, but there are other open borders in Europe—though perhaps not in places with quite the same security issues—such as those between Norway and Sweden, where customs and excise work across the border, but it is frictionless. That is what we would aim for. On the security front, the hon. Lady’s question is more one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Lady Hermon and David Davis

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon]

I have listened intently to the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution. Will he reflect on the fact that when we had Diplock courts in Northern Ireland they were supported by one section of the community and despised by another. We do not have Diplock courts in Northern Ireland any longer. If his proposal were to be legislated upon and we have a secret court that sits and hears all the evidence, including the intercept evidence, which I agree should be allowed into court, how does he think that would be received in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Davis]

I speak as probably one of the last people to give evidence at a Diplock court. It was against a terrorist who was convicted and then, under the Good Friday agreement, promptly released—it was a very frustrating process. Of course there is a problem of acceptability with any secret court. The hon. Lady will know that I fight vigorously against the idea of secret justice, but what we are talking about here is not secret justice; it is about a decision to let into the public domain more than is currently let into the public domain. Sometimes that information is exculpatory. One of the problems that has arisen with SIAC is that the agencies have not been good at their evidence discipline. At least one case has been struck down. A special advocate called Nichol, who is now a judge, discovered that MI5 was claiming that one person against whom it was bringing a case had used a passport to cross a border one week, and then the next week had brought a case against somebody else claiming that he used the same passport on the same day in a different place. So the agencies have their weaknesses. Nevertheless, the tool is significantly better than what we have at the moment. We may use intercept evidence in terrorism prevention and investigation measures and control orders. I happen to think that TPIMs and control orders are completely ludicrous, because they people who should be inside prison leave out on the streets. They should perhaps be called non-control orders, because all the dangerous ones disappear. Of course, it is not easy and there is an issue of presentation, but if there is fair representation from both sides to decide on what information should be put in the public domain, it is as close as we can get to public justice. That is the point.