Tobacco Packaging

Debate between Kevin Barron and Guto Bebb

Thursday 7th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady completely misrepresents my view. I said clearly at the outset that the temptation for young people is much enhanced if the product is affordable, and I think she fully understood my point.

It is important to recognise the problem of illicit and smuggled products because evidence—yes, to be tested and argued about—has been presented to suggest that plain packaging will actually make it easier for these products to be made available. I am fully aware that there are arguments on both sides. However, what is being said in this debate is, in effect, that the Government’s decision to wait to look at the evidence from Australia somehow indicates that they are in league with the tobacco companies. I find that quite distasteful.

I genuinely approach this debate from the point of view that I would like the number of people who smoke to be reduced—to nothing, I hope. I have never smoked, and if any of my children smoked I would be absolutely furious. Indeed, I lost my father to lung cancer at the young age of 63. My children never saw their grandfather simply because of his smoking. If the evidence was clear that plain packaging would be the answer, I would be supportive. I find it very odd that Members are saying that looking at the evidence is somehow condemning people to die. That is emotional and unacceptable language.

When Populus recently surveyed a number of police officers about whether they thought that plain packaging would be helpful, 86% of them clearly stated that they thought it would make it easier for illicit tobacco products to be supplied and that those products would be targeted at young people who could afford them. Sixty-eight per cent. of the police officers thought that plain packaging would lead to an increase in the size of the black economy in relation to tobacco products. A full 62% thought that an increase in cheap tobacco products would result in an increase in the use of tobacco products by children. Those are very interesting and important findings from a poll of police officers. Are their views correct? We need to look at the evidence and consider very carefully whether it supports them.

[Mr Barron]

The latest figures from HMRC, at a mid-point estimate, show that the market share of illicit cigarettes has fallen from 15% in 2006-07 to 9% in 2010-11. There is no evidence that this is not going the right way; it is enforcement that we lack.

[Guto Bebb]

The right hon. Gentleman should perhaps read the report by the Public Accounts Committee, which presented evidence that there has been an uplift since 2010-11. I thought that the whole point of this Chamber was to debate on the basis of the facts, and that we liked evidence to be up to date. If he wants to quote evidence from 2010-11, that is absolutely fine, but I refer him to the PAC report, which has updated figures. It is interesting that he would probably be very supportive of today’s PAC report on universal credit, but when the facts do not suit him he seems to ignore them.

The key thing we need to remember is that time and again this place has legislated in haste. There is a significant question mark over both sides of the debate. What the Government have said is very simple: let us see the evidence and consider it. If the evidence from Australia and other countries that decide to go down this route proves that there has been a reduction in the use of tobacco products, a reduction in illicit tobacco being taken into the country, a fall in the availability of illicit products, and a fall in the number of smuggled products, it would be worth taking the issue extremely seriously and moving to legislate. However, the argument advanced by some hon. Members is about their prejudice rather than the facts. We should congratulate the Government on being willing to wait and legislate correctly rather than acting in haste and possibly contributing to and supporting the behaviour of people who are making tobacco products available to young people not at £7.50 or £8 but at £2.50 or less.

We should consider very carefully what is tempting young people to take up smoking. I am very clearly of the view that the temptation is not necessarily branding but more likely to be price. Labour Members might like to have a good feeling about doing something in this place to help young people, but they should do it on the basis of facts, not their ill-informed opinions.