Elections Bill (First sitting)

Kate Hollern Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you. Have the other witnesses anything to add to that, or can I move on?

[Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Q I have a very quick question for Gillian. For local authorities to issue the free voter ID, what evidence would you need from the person applying?

Gillian Beasley: That is something that we really need to think about: what evidence is required when somebody applies if they do not have a passport or driving licence. Evidence of where they live—bills, bank statements and other such identification—is what we used when we did our proxy pilots.

What we need is some really good guidance about what would be acceptable. As a group of administrators, we would like to have a conversation with Government about what we think would be sufficient before that provision is enacted, so that we are all consistent about what is sufficient. We need to learn from the pilots, because there is obviously some learning from the pilots about what kind of identification is sufficient, and to bring that together so that we have a consistent and safe approach. How do we actually make sure that the documentation is secure and safe enough? There are still some conversations that need to be had and there is some discussion around that at the moment.

[Kate Hollern]

Q So there is quite extensive work to go into the actual detail of producing voter IDs. That brings me on to the additional burden on local authorities. You mentioned how difficult it is to get presiding officers, so there is obviously a huge cost implication in this for local authorities—plus the practical solutions of identifying and delivering voter ID. However, surely it would be quite simple for someone to come and say, “I am X, I live at this address and I need an ID card.” Are you looking at photo ID?

Gillian Beasley: I think that that is the discussion that we need to have as a sector—about what is sufficient. You are absolutely right; my concern would be that somebody would be able easily to produce a false document to say that they lived at a particular address. The conversation that we need to have across the sector, and the guidance that we need, is: what is sufficient ID? That makes the system safe, because we can be sure, or as sure as we can be, that that ID actually locates that person as a real person who we can be confident in giving an ID document to. There is more work and discussion that we need to have around that. Obviously, the Association of Electoral Administrators will have some thoughts on that, and I am sure my team would, as we move forward. That is a discussion that needs to be carefully had.

[Kate Hollern]

Q Thank you. Turning to Peter, like you I was a councillor for 21 years, so I have seen the problems with voting systems over the years, but I am pleased that a number of measures were taken in that long period to address some of your concerns. I was also pleased that in your evidence to the House of Lords you said that there is much more discipline in Tower Hamlets now and that the presiding officer should be the chief executive. In Blackburn, that is exactly what happens.

A number of issues have obviously improved, but you felt the issues that have not improved seem to be the lack of co-operation from the police responding to your concerns and the town hall staff not being equipped or resourced enough to deal with the issues. What do you see in the Bill that will address your concerns about the lack of action and co-operation by the police or the inefficiencies in some town hall services?

Councillor Golds: That is a very interesting point and thank you for highlighting what I said to the House of Lords. I think it was quite intentional that the senior officers of the council in 2014 all declined to act as returning officer. It was devolved to the head of committee services, who was a junior officer, and he was effectively asked to act as a returning officer. In future Bills I believe that the returning officer in elections should be the most senior officer of the local authority, and that should be written into law. They should not be able to cop out, as they are paid.

Where do I look in the Bill? The Bill tidies up the procedures for postal voting. It strengthens this issue of saying that people cannot turn up to a polling station with a Sainsbury’s bag full of postal votes.

[Kate Hollern]

Q Sorry, we do not need a change in legislation for that. I have been involved with many elections, and it is good practice from parties, both Labour and Conservative, to say in their instructions to candidates and campaigners, “You do not touch a postal vote.” If a resident has some difficulty, we phone the town hall and the returning officer sends someone out to help. It seems to me that the problems that Tower Hamlets have experienced, which we accept have got much better, are actually with management within Tower Hamlets. That does not need legislation to find solutions.

Councillor Golds: I am sorry; I have to disagree with you there. Obviously, we are all pleased that Blackburn has tidied up its act, and I am interested and pleased that you refer to cross-party co-operation.

I am sorry to say that I do not think it has improved in other places, and I refer to what Mr Shelbrooke has said. When Paul Bristow fought his by-election, I went there to campaign. I was taken to the central part of Peterborough and I felt so at home. It was exactly what you would expect to see: somebody suddenly arriving with the proverbial Sainsbury’s bag full of postal votes and people standing outside polling stations harassing voters. It should not happen. I believe that everybody should have the right to go to a polling station and vote in freedom.

If we voted in France, election day is a day of reflection. There is no campaigning. You go and vote in secret, behind curtains. Here, we have this wonderful Victorian sense of trust and co-operation between people, because we trust each other in many ways. As you have said, your colleagues in Blackburn work with colleagues of another party to ensure that the parties work well together, but where that trust breaks down, it collapses.

[Kate Hollern]

Q But how will the legislation address the issues raised? Surely that is a police matter.

Councillor Golds: First, we have the tightening of the rules about what you can and cannot say, and where people can be abusive at elections. For example, I have to say that—

[The Chair]

Order. We have to have short questions and answers now as we are running out of time.

Councillor Golds: I am happy to submit information in writing if you would like to see it. Would you like me to do that?

[Kate Hollern]

I just want you to answer the question.

Councillor Golds: Okay.

[Kate Hollern]

Q People are being intimidated outside polling stations—I have experienced it—and the police should deal with that. People are making allegations about candidates—I believe, at some point, there was a leaflet with me in a burqa. How will this legislation improve such harassment?

Councillor Golds: The legislation tightens up the rules of, effectively, what we would call the Miranda Grell situation, whereby people cannot be abusive. The legislation tightens up the rules, as we have seen, about people turning up to a polling station and just asking for a ballot paper and being given one. It tightens up the rules on postal voting.

There are other matters that I would like to address. I believe that there should be an amendment to reaffirm the secrecy of the ballot, because I cannot believe that the police can possibly argue that we do not have a secret ballot in this country, as they appear to be doing. I would think that, of what—

[Kate Hollern]

Q Sorry. Basically, people intimidating someone on the street should be a police matter. I accept that there should be limits on what can be said and done within a poll, but that is already in the rules. On the secret ballot, you gave a case—I think Gillian addressed it as well—where someone was with a woman actually casting a ballot, and you found that the lady was intimidated. Did she allege it was intimidation, or did she just require support because she did not speak or read English?

[The Chair]

Order. We need a very short answer. We have two more Members who would like to come in.

Councillor Golds: The law is clear that you vote in secret.

Elections Bill (Third sitting)

Kate Hollern Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 16th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Q Thank you for attending this session. It is interesting that you are the first black witness that we have had and you were invited along to talk about race. I apologise on behalf of the Committee for the way you were treated. The evidence we had yesterday from Peter Golds and Eric Pickles verified that election fraud does happen on very rare occasions. I would like to pick up your point about reaching out to communities and how we engage, encourage and assist people to get involved in the democratic process. Is there anything in the Bill that will enhance that communication and support?

I have just checked the allegation of fraud made by the hon. Member for Peterborough and, in those cases, it was found that no offences were committed. Does the message that electoral fraud has happened in black and ethnic minority communities act to disfranchise those communities, which we are trying to reach?

Maurice Mcleod: Sadly, I think it does, whether deliberately or not. I think we should always lean towards things having been done in good faith, but if you say things like, “There is very serious electoral fraud, and it happens in areas where there are lots of black and Asian people,” it is not a massive leap in people’s minds to, “Okay; so black and Asian people are somehow doing electoral fraud. That is what we’re clamping down on. We’re stopping people doing something dodgy to our process.” That is exactly the sort of alienating message that ends up with people saying, “I’m not interested in any of that stuff. All that politics stuff has nothing to do with me.” Those sorts of narratives do play into that, I am afraid. I have forgotten the beginning part of your question, but I worry about the narrative of, “We need to solve this massive fraud problem that is happening in minority ethnic areas.” I will not say it is a dog whistle, but I think it has an impact on minority communities, certainly.

[Paul Bristow]

On a point of order, Ms Rees.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Can we leave it there, please? Your comments are on the record now. We need to move on and take more questions, but your point is noted.

[Kate Hollern]

Q A final question from me. Ladies wearing face coverings turning up to polling stations will require there to be a lot more female staff in polling stations. How can that be managed, and how can we reassure communities that polling stations will have the facilities and staff required?

Maurice Mcleod: That is very hard. You make a really good point. It is all very well saying that photo ID should be used, but if you are not supposed to reveal your face to a man who is not in your immediate family, that is really hard. Even if councils say, “We’ll make sure there are women, or people who know what should happen, at the polling station,” there is still that worry in your head, if you are that woman who is not that confident about whatever, and you need to go out and vote. There is still that concern—“Will I be treated properly? Do they know what my faith needs?”

If that is the route we go down, I would want to see a real effort, through mosques and any other faith groups that would be impacted, to bring those communities on board and show them, “This is how it will be. It will be completely safe. We totally get what you need to do to be observant.” It is another worry—one that I have not brought up so far. Not everyone can use their face as ID as freely as the rest of us.

[Kate Hollern]

Q Thank you very much. Is the voter ID scheme as set out in the Bill compatible with the right to vote under the European convention on human rights, particularly when read with the anti-discrimination provision in article 14 in mind?

Maurice Mcleod: Sorry, I am not sure. Can you say that again?

[Kate Hollern]

Q There is some suggestion that the Bill could contradict the Human Rights Act. Do you have any experience or knowledge of that?

Maurice Mcleod: I do not, I am afraid. I am not from a constitutional background or a legal background, so that is not something I could comment on.

[Kate Hollern]

Very finally, how do you—

[The Chair]

We have to move on. I promised Jerome Mayhew that he could come in, so if we have time at the end, I will bring you and Paul Bristow back in, Ms Hollern. We are against the clock. Mr Mayhew?