Access to Justice: Vulnerable People

Debate between Karl Turner and Shailesh Vara

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Karl Turner]

With respect, I am not prepared to go into the hon. Gentleman’s Daily Mail-reading fraternity line. Frankly, that is outrageous. One thing I think the Bach commission will establish is consensus of opinion, so I will not make Opposition policy about the residence test on the hoof, but it is disgraceful that women who have been trafficked will probably be refused access to law as a result of the Government’s proposed changes.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)]

indicated dissent.

[Karl Turner]

I think the Minister may be saying that that is not correct.

[Mr Vara]

There are exceptions.

[Karl Turner]

Of course there are exceptions, but we have seen how exceptions have failed. The Government must be careful. I finish on the point made by the hon. Member for Warrington South—

--- Later in debate ---

[Karl Turner]

Will the Minister kindly explain how the residence test will work in practice?

[Mr Vara]

Clearly, we have said that someone has to be here for a minimum of 12 months. We will ensure that when an application is made that criterion is fulfilled. If the person is in one of the exceptional categories, the criterion will not apply.

[Karl Turner]

Let us say that a solicitor is taking instructions from a client. What evidence will be needed to prove habitual residence in the United Kingdom?

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman is an experienced barrister and an experienced politician. He will appreciate that the function of this House is to put policy into implementation, by ensuring that it becomes law. The practical process will need to be thought out—[Hon. Members: “Ah!”]—as is the case with every other measure introduced by the present and previous Governments, and during the 13 years when the hon. Gentleman’s party was in government, and even before that. That is something that will be dealt with and resolved.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for whom I have huge respect and regard, spoke passionately; but he will of course be aware that the matter is a devolved one. I wish him well in his dealings with David Ford, with whom I too have had dealings. To the extent that it will help, I will certainly tell him the next time I see him that the hon. Gentleman was speaking passionately and would like him to give a sympathetic ear when he raises the issue. The hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald) will appreciate that, again, the issue is a devolved one; but he has put his views on record—including in our little dialogue during my speech.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) for bringing a realistic perspective to the debate, and for pointing out the reality of the situation. He repeatedly asked the shadow Justice Minister which of the cuts that we have made his party would reverse. I am not surprised that no reply was forthcoming, because in an interview with The Guardian on 30 January 2015, the former shadow Lord Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), said:

“I don’t have a magic wand to wave. I can’t commit to reverse the £600m cuts to legal aid made by the Tories and Lib Dems. We will still have to take tough decisions on reducing the deficit.”

However, it was not only the former shadow Justice Secretary who took that view. The person in his team dealing specifically with legal aid, the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter), was interviewed by John Hyde of The Law Society Gazette on 24 September 2014:

“‘We’re not going to get in a Tardis and go back to before,’ he said. ‘We are in a world where resources are tight and it would not be right to pretend otherwise.’”

The article goes on:

“Slaughter conceded that the Labour party would have been forced to make cuts to family law funding and promote mediation as a cheaper option. He added that a Labour government would seek to promote and improve mediation services on offer.”

He is quoted as saying:

“‘We are going to be honest about the tightness of resources—we can’t tackle everything immediately and other elements”

of public spending

“will have a higher place in the queue.’”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Lady seeks to justify the fact that her party says it will not make cuts reversals of £600 million by saying, “There you are.” Of course we support mediation. In fact we have said that in family cases where there are divorces, rather than the two separating parties engaging solicitors and then barristers, and then going to court—all paid for by the taxpayer—it is far better for them to sit around a table, trying to have a constructive dialogue with mediation. That way of reaching a solution is preferable.

Given that the shadow team has said it would not make any cuts, perhaps its members could reflect on whether the next time one of them speaks they might be supportive of our proposals, rather than simply saying, “Don’t reduce.”

[Karl Turner]

Will the Minister concede at least that the leader of the Labour party has set up the Bach commission, to look at the issue of access to justice? It would be constructive for Ministers at least to acknowledge that. It is true that my colleagues said previously that they could not just wave a magic wand—of course not; but some of the cuts were badly made and chaotic. Areas—swathes—were taken out of the scope of legal aid, with the consequence that the most vulnerable people suffered; and the reality was that that did not really save money.

[Mr Vara]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the comments I just made—that his party’s shadow team said it would not reverse any of the cuts. That kind of contradicts what he says; but as far as Willy Bach is concerned—and he is a man for whom I have much respect—I wish him well with his commission. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) will be aware that we have said there will be a review of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 three to five years from its implementation. That will be a thorough review in relation to the way forward.

I want to mention some other points made in the debate. The hon. Member for Aberavon referred to some research conducted by Rights of Women, showing that 38% or 39% of women do not have the evidence needed to apply for legal aid. That research was based on responses from 61 people, which I hope even the hon. Gentleman will agree is a small sample—much smaller than researchers would ordinarily use to generalise across the wider population.

There is much debate about the amount of work available and the number of lawyers around to do it. The Law Society has itself accepted that there are far too many people chasing too little criminal work. We must recognise that the legal profession needs to take a wider look—not just at legal aid—at how things are going. In a relatively short time the structure of the legal profession has changed. There was a time when there were simply solicitors, barristers and legal executives; but now barristers in particular face competition from solicitors who have higher rights of audience than previously. There are more people wanting to qualify as barristers, as well. Alternative business structures are coming on the scene. That means that more and more people are chasing the same amount of work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Shailesh Vara

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

There are, of course, rules and regulations as to who qualifies and who does not. I cannot comment on specific individual cases, but the Legal Aid Agency does try to make sure that it is only those who qualify who get the assistance it provides.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

In June, the Justice Secretary criticised what he called the two nation justice system, but restricting civil legal aid according to how long an individual has lived in this country clearly widens the gap between those afforded access to justice and those not. The residence test would have denied justice to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes. Does the Minister think that that is right, and if not, will he drop the two nation justice policy of the Justice Secretary’s predecessor?

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman needs to appreciate that we have had to take tough measures. It is vital, and the British people in their millions rightfully say that they want overseas people to have some connection with the UK before getting use of the taxes that they pay. The residence test has gone through the court process to the Court of Appeal, and if it goes further, the Government will object and robustly defend our stance on the residence test.

Employment Tribunal Fees

Debate between Karl Turner and Shailesh Vara

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Vara]

It is important to appreciate that once the Government website publishes terms of reference, which have been there for many weeks, it is not appropriate to seek to change those terms of reference simply because one is in a debate, no matter how many times colleagues try to press me to respond in that way.

[Karl Turner]

I will give the Minister one last opportunity: is the possibility of the complete abolition of the fees in the review?

[Mr Vara]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave setting out the three objectives against which we are basing the review.

It is important to note that the introduction of fees was designed to encourage parties to use alternative ways of resolving their disputes. Colleagues will appreciate that such means can often be more effective, less stressful and less expensive than formal litigation. For that reason, the previous Administration introduced the new early conciliation service, under which anyone contemplating bringing a complaint to an employment tribunal must first contact ACAS, which will offer conciliation that is free of charge.

ACAS’s evaluation of the scheme during its first year shows that the early results are promising. Although participating in early conciliation is not compulsory for either party, the vast majority do so. In 75% of cases, both parties agree to participate. The scheme was used by more than 80,000 people in its first year. Recent research by ACAS shows that more than 80% of participants in early conciliation were satisfied with the service. Much has been said so far about lawyers acting for people, so it is important to note that we have a free option, without lawyers who charge fees, that will also be less stressful and in an environment that is constructive to arriving at a solution. Sadly, it is often the case that when lawyers are involved, it can be antagonistic. That is not always the case, but it can be the case when two sets of lawyers are acting.

I assure colleagues that it was always our intention to carry out a post-implementation review of the impact of fees on employment tribunals. As Members will be aware, we announced that review in June. The aim of the review is to look at how effective fees have been in meeting the original objectives, as I mentioned. Following their introduction, there has been some concern—it has been expressed today—about the impact fees have had on people’s ability to bring claims before the tribunal. Those criticisms have tended to focus on selected statistics, taken in isolation and out of context. In particular, the fall in the volume of claims issued in the employment tribunal has been pointed to as proof that people are being denied access to justice. That is too narrow a perspective when considering this rather broader issue. The fall in the number of claims is likely to be the result of a number of factors. Crucially, there is a failure to take account of the significant increase in the take-up of conciliation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Shailesh Vara

Tuesday 3rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

The concept of McKenzie friends is relatively new. [Hon. Members: “No, it’s not.”] I said relatively new. We are keeping an eye on advice and what fees, if any, are being charged.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

In the first quarter of the year, at least one party was not represented in 76% of private family cases, while the Master of the Rolls has warned that civil courts are experiencing significant impacts from the rise in the number of litigants in person. Part 1 of LASPO has been an unmitigated disaster. Will the Justice Secretary now bring forward the much-needed review of LASPO to mitigate the shambles of his predecessors?

Draft Maximum Number of Judges Order 2015

Debate between Karl Turner and Shailesh Vara

Thursday 22nd October 2015 General Committees

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, for the first time. Given the proceedings thus far, I am sure it will be a pleasure and a privilege. I must declare an interest. My wife is a fee-paid judge who sits in the first-tier social welfare tribunal. I do not think that that is recorded in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, but no doubt it will be now. The Opposition do not object to the order. We too want to congratulate Lord Justice Pitchford on his appointment to lead a very important inquiry.

I have some questions for the Minister. I think I am right in saying that there has been no need to extend the number of Court of Appeal judges since 2008; it is a relatively rare occurrence. I wonder whether an increase might be required again any time soon. Do the Government plan to increase the number of Court of Appeal judges? If they do, would that be due to the fact that there is clearly a delay in Court of Appeal cases? Cases are being bumped and there is a backlog. Might that require another increase in the number of judges in the not too distant future?

My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth properly raised the issue of diversity. Might the measure provide an opportunity for the Government to look at that again? Across the House, we are always concerned about diversity in the legal profession generally—among solicitors, the Bar and the judiciary. This might be an opportunity to improve the diversity of gender and ethnicity in the judiciary. That said, we have no real objection. Will the Minister clarify those points?

[Mr Vara]

I am very happy to do so. Before I do, may I take the opportunity to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his relatively recent appointment as shadow Solicitor General? The position carries huge responsibility. I wish him well and look forward to working with him.

We are making this appointment because, in the general scheme of things, 38 is not a large number of Court of Appeal judges. Taking one away from that contingent would have an impact on the current number of cases and how they are progressed. It is important that we continue with the current flow of dealing with cases, which is why we have this new appointment. Any future appointment is a matter to be considered at a later date. At the moment, we are simply filling an existing gap.

The hon. Gentleman rightly raised the issue of diversity. I made some comments about that earlier. I emphasise those and add that diversity is critical. We have to ensure that the judiciary, at all levels, is representative of mainstream society. Given the interest that he declared, he will be aware that, at a certain level, there is diversity. It is crucial that we have that diversity in the upper echelons of judiciary—more women, more people from ethnic minorities and more people from other social backgrounds. I, for one, am very keen on that. I have regular meetings with the judiciary and the commission that appoints judges to ensure that that matter is foremost in their minds.

Question put and agreed to.