Firefighters: Mental Health Support

Karen Lee Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Westminster Hall

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Emma Dent Coad) on securing the debate. I am pleased that she was successful in applying for it. In view of her expertise, given that the Grenfell disaster happened in her constituency, no Member is better placed to lead the debate.

When I took the shadow fire and emergency services post, I wanted to visit as many fire services as possible to learn at first hand what firefighters’ main concerns are. I expected to hear about problems with funding, staffing, pay and pensions, but I was taken aback by the deep concern about mental health. Firefighters are on the frontline. It is their job to deal with life-threatening situations. I acknowledge that it is highly demanding and stressful work, but it is also invaluable for our communities. Mind, the mental health charity, has done some great work in supporting firefighters through its blue light programme. Its workplace criteria for identifying the potential for mental illness correspond to the risks that are posed to firefighters daily: the repeated exposure to traumatic events, the potential for physical injuries, workload pressures, suffering loss, and worries about money. Invoking those criteria helps to explain why the potential for mental illness in the fire service is extremely high. The distinct lack of direct central Government action and focus, when the evidence is clear, is astonishing.

I acknowledge that the responsibility for ensuring the health and safety of firefighters rests with individual fire and rescue authorities, and the Chief Fire Officers Association supports them in that work through its lead on fire and rescue occupational health matters. I am sure the Government will point to the commitment of £7 million to pay for mental health support through Mind’s blue light programme. That is positive, but in 2017 the number of fire and rescue staff taking long-term sick leave because of mental illness had risen by nearly a third over the previous six years. Mind has found that 85% of fire and rescue personnel have experienced stress and poor mental health at work, and firefighters are twice as likely to identify problems at work as the main cause of their mental health problems. However, that does not only affect the firefighters; there is a big impact on their families.

Fire services work hard to ensure that the support infrastructure is available. I have heard of brilliant examples of that happening, including in the London Fire Brigade and Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service, but the evidence shows that more has to be done to provide support to fire services. I do not doubt that the Government have acted, but any action cannot be separated from their wider attack on the service. Their ideologically-based austerity agenda has put more pressure on emergency services, and firefighters are bearing the burden. I am told time and again by the Minister that the number of fire incidents is decreasing but, as we know, that is not the full story. The overall number of incidents that the fire service responds to has decreased by 12.6% between 2010 and 2018. However, 11,854 firefighters have been cut in the same period, which equates to 20% of frontline staff. Therefore, on average we have fewer staff responding to more incidents, and incidents have risen every year since 2014. Workload pressures have increased over the past eight years, and if the Government want to be effective they must consider a staffing review as part of their policy to address mental health issues.

The effects of sustained cuts have put a considerable amount of pressure on the workforce, but that pressure is also changing. National discussions are being held regarding the expansion of the role of the firefighter to include emergency medical response. That may be a positive step if it is properly funded and if training is made readily available. However, I am not optimistic that central Government will ensure that that happens. I am not opposed on principle to EMR, but it must be properly funded. It will increase firefighters’ exposure to traumatic events and potential of losses of life. If they are not prepared for that change, it could be catastrophic for their mental health.

As a nurse, I saw such events at first hand. I assure Members that if someone is not prepared to deal with such incidents, the consequences for their wellbeing could be devastating. I was a cardiac nurse for 12 years and had an advanced life support qualification. I used to carry a cardiac arrest bleeper, and we used to run across the hospital to arrests. At that time—this is going back five to 10 years—the success rate was about 20% of resuscitations. That was in hospital, so we were getting there quickly. When a firefighter arrives at a cardiac arrest more time will have gone between what we used to call down time and the start of resuscitation, so the chances of success will be lower. At least we were successful a proportion of the time. By virtue of the way their work will happen in the community, the firefighters will see more fatalities; they will have to deal with that regularly, so it is an even more important factor in their mental health.

[Bill Grant]

I thank the hon. Lady for her good work in cardiac services. That was in a controlled, measured environment, but the challenge for firefighters and ambulance personnel is that they operate in a quite unnatural environment, whether they are attending an accident at a farm or factory, or a car accident. They are exposed to the weather and elements, and there are other road users, and so on. That is an added dimension; it is not a controlled environment, although we would do our best to control it on arrival.

[Karen Lee]

Absolutely. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. After someone has attended an arrest situation unsuccessfully, they go through an algorithm and they know they have done everything properly, but they still feel bad about losing that person. My point is that going to more arrests with a lower likelihood of success—because of all the things that the hon. Gentleman mentioned—involves much greater pressure. When I was a nurse we had occupational health, and there has to be something like that for firefighters—proper support.

I have been told numerous times during visits that firefighters have less time to train because of their workload. That is another thing that is very important. People going to an arrest must feel they know what they are doing. I am very concerned at the possibility that if outstanding issues are not fully addressed and firefighters are not effectively prepared for a sustained change in their role and responsibilities, their wellbeing could be damaged.

Our firefighters are heroes, and their pay must be properly addressed. As I have said time and again, they cannot spend a pat on the back. Mind has identified money worries as a contributing factor to mental illness, and considering the sacrifices made by our firefighters, the last worry they should have should be about their pay packet at the end of the month—my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington made a good point about some firefighters needing a second job, which is utterly disgraceful.

The Grenfell disaster and its consequences for our firefighters are terrible. The work that the Fire Brigades Union and the London Fire Brigade are doing to support firefighters is outstanding, and includes support for the 80 fire officers giving oral statements at the Grenfell inquiry. As the “Journey of Recovery” report highlighted, alongside all those affected, firefighters who were at the scene may be at risk of PTSD. The consequences are clear: stress and depression have been identified as the main source of LFB sick leave post Grenfell. I commend the Government’s commitment of £50 million to tackle mental health post Grenfell, but what proportion of that money will specifically be invested in support for LFB firefighters? Eighteen months after Grenfell, those firefighters still line the route every month for the silent vigil, and they are to be commended.

I do not accuse the Government of not caring, but I believe that more could be done, and they must recognise that cuts to central Government funding and staffing levels have a subsequent effect on a workforce. Let us not get into the old argument about allocated and unallocated resources, or who is responsible for austerity—the fire service must be properly resourced. I recognise that the Minister has asked Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services to assess how well services understand and meet the wellbeing needs of their workforce, and how that can be improved. Will he provide an update on that and say when we can expect additional investment or support? How much of the £7 million committed to Mind’s blue light programme is included in existing fire service resources, and how much is new money? I look forward to hearing his response.

Oral Answers to Questions

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s interest in this pilot scheme for agricultural workers. I can assure her, first, that it will be carefully evaluated, and if we need to expand it, we will do that. I can also confirm that workers from the EU will still be able to come and work in the UK during the implementation period.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has told us that austerity is over and that we are going to save millions from her Brexit deal, and the Minister regularly blames Labour for austerity. We should remember, though, that the Government have given tax cuts to the very wealthy and big corporations: it would seem that the country can afford those. The evidence of cuts is clear—12,000 fewer firefighters and rising response times. The blame cannot be put on local government and fire services. In the light of the Prime Minister’s comments, and if austerity really is over, when will the Minister commission a review of fire service funding—and will he recognise, rather than ignore, the difference between allocated, as opposed to unallocated, reserves?

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

Our firefighters do an incredibly important job. They have been well supported by the Government, with stable funding over the last comprehensive spending review period, in return for efficiency plans. We are conducting a demand review, to ensure that as we go into the next comprehensive spending review, our fire service gets the support it needs.

Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service

Karen Lee Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Westminster Hall

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mary Glindon) for securing this debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie.

Hon. Members have voiced concerns about a number of issues, and I hope the Minister will respond in full. We have heard concerns about the ideologically based austerity cuts and the disregard for the social deprivation that this Government have caused. We have heard concerns about the impact of the cuts on public safety, concerns about the risk to the safety and even the lives of firefighters, concerns about their morale, and concerns about the possible increase in response times and the increase in antisocial behaviour. It is a shame that we have also seen such huge cuts to the numbers of police officers since 2010. We have heard concerns about the robustness of the public consultation, given the inclusion of the Christmas period within that time, concerns about the impact on businesses, and concerns about the unrealistic suggestion of using council tax to increase revenues for the fire service. I would especially like to hear the Minister’s response to that concern.

The financial situation of fire services nationally and in Tyne and Wear is very concerning and the new integrated risk management plan places the brunt of the Government’s cuts on frontline operations. The Conservative Government oversaw a 30% cut to central Government funding for fire and rescue services between 2010 and 2015, and slashed firefighters’ numbers by nearly 12,000. The Government have clearly chosen the fire service to bear a considerable part of the burden of their destructive austerity agenda, and ultimately it is our communities that suffer.

Whenever Opposition Members question the full impact of the austerity agenda on the fire service, the responsibility for cuts is passed on to the fire authorities, when in reality it is the central Government’s allocation of resources that is to blame. The Tyne and Wear fire service’s proposed integrated risk management plan is being undermined by austerity, which year on year is squeezing the resources available to the service to keep its communities safe. That is the key—keeping communities safe. When a risk management plan becomes a strategy to implement cuts, it evades its central purpose and focus, which should be analysing the service’s capacity to respond to risk, not trying to deliver a service on the cheap.

Tyne and Wear has been heavily affected by the Government’s austerity agenda. The service now has 285 fewer firefighters and cuts are set to continue. This is a reckless Government policy, the possible consequences of which have not been properly thought through. The fire service should be funded on the basis of its community significance, not an arbitrary demand. It must be prepared for any eventuality, not put on life support with a shoestring budget; I think Grenfell demonstrated that.

I acknowledge that the fire chief and the fire authority have been put in an incredibly difficult situation. Since 2010, Tyne and Wear fire and rescue service has been put under extraordinary pressure to make cuts. The cuts are principally of the Government’s making, yet I am very concerned about the proposals the fire authority have suggested, which include downgrading the availability of wholetime firefighters at Hebburn and Wallsend, a reduction in fire appliances at Tynemouth and South Shields overnight, two fire appliances cut from Gosforth and Washington and downgrading the immediate response wholetime appliance at North Moor in Sunderland. Each of those proposals accepts that the communities in Tyne and Wear will be much less safe. That is key. Effective fire response is contingent on a fast, well-staffed response, but the reality is quite the opposite.

The cuts also need to be considered in the context of available reserves. The service is under pressure to make cuts of £3.6 million, yet it has £3.9 million in unallocated reserves. I know the plan is about sustainability, but regularly when I stand up to speak in the Chamber, the Minister tells me that the fire service will not receive any more money, as it has reserves, and that fire responses are decreasing. Sadly, that seems to be his stock and only response. It would be nice to hear something different today.

That observation of the Minister’s is deeply flawed. As a service, fire and rescue is more than just fire response; it plays a vital role in our communities. Overall incident responses, rather than just responses to fire-related incidents, have increased every year since 2014. His response also overlooks the level of unallocated reserves available to fire services; it is important to recognise that unallocated reserves make up only a small percentage of overall reserves. I ask him to make a distinction between the two. I understand that reserves are a one-off, needed to deal with unforeseen pressures, and that this is money that has been hard-saved during the current Government’s tough budget squeezes. As the National Audit Office has stated, reserves are part of a robust financial strategy.

We simply cannot justify cuts to frontline or support services when the service has sufficient financial resources to prevent the service being downgraded. I urge the Tyne and Wear fire and rescue authority to reconsider its options. The community’s safety must be prioritised. However, it is vital to remember that the blame for this decision should not be pointed at local government, which is forced to deliver the cuts imposed by the Government. That is called passing the buck.

I remind everybody here today that the austerity agenda was and still is an ideological choice. Since 2010, this Government have underfunded all our public services, while continuing to hand out tax cuts to the very wealthy and large corporations. We never hear much about that. It is this Government who have actively chosen to reduce the capacity of fire services to keep communities safe across the UK. At the moment, all we ever hear about is Brexit. It is high time that we started to look at some of the serious things happening in this country, including having a fire service that is fit and prepared for the 21st century, which keeps our firefighters and our communities safe and well.

Oral Answers to Questions

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I join the Home Secretary in his remarks about the performance of the Leicestershire emergency services. Leicestershire is an excellent example of where services are going the extra mile to explore ways of working together and making the best use of existing assets and resources. As they are public assets and public resources, there is a duty to make the most of them.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

Merging services is yet another ploy to promote the Government’s austerity agenda: cutting one budget rather than two. For example, in Essex, the recently merged fire service budget is now being used to prop up the local highway plan, while the Essex service is forecast to lose £8 million between 2016 and 2020. Does the Minister agree that the Government are putting the future of the fire service at risk? If austerity is really over, will he tell the House when he will speak to the Chancellor about properly funding the service, based on community importance, rather than sporadic demand?

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Lady could not be more wrong. We are not talking about mergers; we are talking about the imperative on those deploying public money to use it in the smartest possible way and to make the best possible use of the public resources at their disposal. It is about value for money, which of course the Labour Front-Bench team has no interest in at all.

Asylum Accommodation Contracts

Karen Lee Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2018 Westminster Hall

[Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this important debate.

There are so many horror stories about asylum accommodation in the UK and so many reasons why we need independent oversight that it would be impossible to cover everything in the time I have, but I hope that what I do share gives an understanding of how outsourcing companies acting like vultures are failing our most vulnerable. I hope these contracts can be delivered better locally by those who have the interests of the residents at heart.

G4S holds a contract in the giant north-east England, Yorkshire and Humber region. It has a home for 14 mothers and 14 babies in my constituency. I was first contacted about the property by the manager of a local children’s centre, who described a multitude of issues and the unwillingness of G4S to act. On visiting the house, the first thing that struck me was the stickiness underfoot and the smell of urine. That was the result of an earlier rat infestation, which was reported to G4S and ignored.

Although the local church stepped in and blocked the rats’ entrance to the bedroom, the carpet remained coated in rat urine. A toddler crawling over the carpet had a skin infection. Her mother told me, “There is nowhere else for her to go.” That was not strictly true. Her baby could have crawled in the hallway, where a missing baby gate left a steep set of stairs exposed—something of which G4S had been informed months before. Or perhaps the child could crawl around the kitchen, where rat poison was left on the floor and mould covered every wall.

There are other issues in the property, including a lack of cleaning and cooking equipment, which G4S should have provided. After writing to G4S in exasperation, I met the landlord of the property, who stepped in and provided what G4S did not. That was in addition to the maintenance requests that G4S had failed to pass on, increasing its profit margin at someone else’s expense.

Vermin is a common theme in these properties. Another woman living with a young child reported a mice infestation, caused by holes in the walls of the property. G4S refused to be held accountable. Instead of dealing with it, it sent the woman on a training course in kitchen hygiene. After six months of complaining, and with multiple open wounds caused by mice biting her face, she went to Leeds City Council, which acted swiftly to solve the problem. That cost should have been covered by the asylum accommodation contract. However, the public sector had to step in, subsidising the private sector. It is not only G4S that is failing. I heard about one young woman who moved into Serco-run accommodation only to find human faeces smeared on her bedroom wall. She cleaned it up, but the cockroaches and rodents were more persistent.

These stories represent the dark side of Conservative ideology—a disturbing faith in privatisation and outsourcing, no matter the human cost, and the growing of private profits at the expense of the public and the vulnerable. These contracts underline the unwillingness and inability of the private sector to provide safe, habitable accommodation to some of the most vulnerable in our society.

My experience of working with those 14 mothers in my constituency shows the neglectful regime of G4S, compared with the generous and loving nature of the city of Leeds and our Labour council. I thank our children’s centre, which worked unpaid to support those mothers, as well as the church, which did the jobs the private sector could not, the landlord, who stepped in, and my staff and local party members, who helped to provide basic items that G4S would not.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, in cases such as this, local authorities ought to be empowered to take over these contracts and oversee them, because this situation clearly is not acceptable?

[Alex Sobel]

It is absolutely not acceptable. I was just coming on to those points, which I thank my hon. Friend for raising. As she said, it is not up to individual and local groups to step in. These contracts cost millions of pounds in public funds, but struggling local authorities step in to prevent homelessness when the private firms cannot fulfil their contracts. Our councils are expected to bail out these companies, but they are not granted any oversight of the delivery of their contracts. That is both insulting and impractical. It has created a system lacking in democracy and dignity.

Everyone deserves a safe and secure home in this country. These contracts must be revisited. Councils and charities must have a central role in ensuring that the safety of asylum seekers is the priority in delivery. There must also be independent oversight of these contracts to ensure that people come before profit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

The short answer is yes. My hon. Friend and I both understand the historical context to this and some of the difficulties and complexities. I am sure that the council will want to co-operate fully with the new arrangements.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

Firefighter Michael Dowden told the Grenfell inquiry that he had not received any familiarisation training before his inspection of Grenfell Tower in 2016. With cuts to 11,000 fire service jobs, station closures and privatisation of training delivery, our overstretched fire services—despite the Minister’s usual comments about resources—are struggling to complete the training they need. With all this in mind, what specific measures is he taking to ensure that fire services have the capacity to deliver the training that our firefighters need to keep both themselves and our communities safe?

[Mr Hurd]

It is the responsibility of each fire chief to ensure that their local teams are properly trained. They have the resources to do that, as I made clear in my earlier answer.

Saddleworth Moor and Tameside: Ongoing Fire

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I join you, Mr Speaker, in recognising the presence of Mr Deputy Speaker, to whom I spoke on the phone yesterday. He is concerned, as ever, for his constituents, and I join my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) in saluting the work of firefighters from across the country who have stepped into this heroic, protracted task.

On the use of drones, there is no clearer message than that issued by the Lancashire fire brigade: don’t. If people are considering going to take some photographs of the fire, don’t. Just get out of the way and let the fire service do its job. Do not get in the fire service’s way.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting the urgent question from my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds).

The emergency responders have done an excellent job in tackling the fire. Their courageous work, day and night, for over a week in extremely hot conditions goes to show their passionate commitment to public service. The dedicated work of the fire service, with support from the Army, has prevented the fire from spreading to surrounding populated areas, and lives and properties are now not at risk.

I could spend my whole contribution talking about my admiration for the emergency services yet, while this Government wax lyrical about their appreciation for the fire service, they have presided over eight years of scathing cuts to fire authority budgets and firefighter numbers. The typical Government response is to point to fire authority reserves. However, given the progressive funding squeeze since 2010, alongside the required earmarking of most of the reserves, there are serious questions to be asked about the level of funding the Government have allocated for fire authorities to deliver a fully resourced service.

Will the Minister provide more financial support to local authorities in the area to mitigate the impact of the fire? I understand the exceptional circumstances of this fire, but the fire and emergency services must be staffed, resourced and paid adequately to ensure they are sufficiently prepared for any emergency. They should not be expected to react on a shoestring budget.

The effect on staffing levels of budgetary cuts over the past eight years is clear. Since 2010, Greater Manchester and Lancashire between them have had around 1,000 firefighters cut. Will the Minister acknowledge the failure of austerity and take a lead from Labour’s commitment to recruit 3,000 new firefighters and to scrap the pay cap?

[Mr Hurd]

The only bit of the hon. Lady’s question with which I agree is her admiration for the emergency services, which is shared on both sides of the House. The rest was badly misjudged, because this is not the day to try to make political points. What the country wants to hear is cross-party support and admiration for the emergency services, and it wants to hear whether the Government are prepared to commit the resources to support this effort for as long as it lasts, which is what I have done.

The hon. Lady talks about resources for the fire service, and I will let the numbers speak for themselves. Core spending power has risen this year by 1.2%. As a country, we are spending more than £2.3 billion on our fire service. The fire service has £650 million of reserves, which have grown by 88% since 2011. We are conducting a demand review to inform the next comprehensive spending review. This Government are determined to make sure our emergency services have the resources they need.

Draft Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, E, F, and H) Order 2018

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 General Committees

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Austin. We on the Opposition Benches support the measures in principle. As times and technology change, codes of practice should reflect that. The use of video recording is vital to investigations. We must use every means at our disposal to investigate, solve and prevent crimes and terrorist offences. However, the Opposition strongly believe that such things must be conducted with complete respect for our civil liberties. That has been and must continue to be the British way. We see no reason to think that the powers outlined today would affect that.

The consultation rightly raised the issue of safeguards for juvenile and vulnerable people. Following that, greater attention has been paid to defining those who are vulnerable in the codes of practice. That is important in ensuring fair treatment and support for those who need them during questioning. However, we continue to question the resources available to execute the new powers. Police officer numbers have been slashed by 21,000 since 2010, and our cash-strapped police forces are under increasing strain.

Increased safeguards often require more resources. Can the Minister offer reassurances that there are sufficient resources to ensure the enforcement of the new powers? That is important to us. We cannot protect the public on the cheap, and that includes the protection of their fundamental rights. We appreciate that the change will be monitored and reviewed to ensure success. I would be interested to hear from the Minister how monitoring might take place and when we might expect a review to be published.

Were any measures that individuals recommended in the consultation not included by the Government in the updated codes of practice? We note that no specific measures are included for what happens to the video recordings of people deemed to be innocent. We do not want to fall into a similar situation as we have done with fingerprints and DNA.

As I said at the beginning, we are not opposed to the measures, and I look forward to hearing back from the Minister on some of the points of concern I have raised.

Oral Answers to Questions

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 4th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I assure my hon. Friend that I speak regularly to Andy Street. The Government are determined to honour the second devolution deal, including with proposals to help to bring police and fire services under the Mayor, as we have done in London and Manchester. I assure my hon. Friend that we are absolutely committed to working with both Andy Street and the police and crime commissioner to make sure that that happens by 2020.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

As a result of this Government’s cut to funding, along with no recruitment drive, we have seen both a reduction in the number of firefighters and an increasingly ageing workforce. How do the Government plan to address the rising age of firefighters? Will the Minister please give us some specific examples?

[Mr Hurd]

I already have. Through the statutory national framework, every fire authority is required not just to assess firefighter fitness, but to help to develop and maintain it, giving assurances about support if problems arise, so that every firefighter, whatever their age, is given the maximum possible opportunity to continue to support their service and remain on operational duties. That is set out in the statutory framework.

Oral Answers to Questions

Karen Lee Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd]

One way of avoiding the impact of cuts that the hon. Lady highlights would be by having greater efficiencies, and having collaboration between the emergency services is an excellent way of doing that. That is what we have seen up and down the country, and I urge her to see more of it in her own area.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

The PCC takeover of fire services will change the perception of firefighters from “public safety” to “law enforcement”. My question is: when are the Government going to provide adequate funding so that councils are not forced into hostile PCC and fire service mergers? I am looking for a meaningful response on central Government funding, not another brush-off about earmarked reserves.

[Amber Rudd]

The hon. Lady underestimates the high regard in which firefighters are held right across this country. The public know the difference, and are able to distinguish between firefighters and policemen and women, but they want to see better working of emergency services together.