Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Karen Lee Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 20th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ms Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

I lost my daughter a few years ago; she was an adult. You never get over it—you just get used to it and live with it. I was employed by United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust and I had a phased return to work. They were just marvellous—I can never thank them enough. It makes such a difference, having that chance to grieve.

I completely support this Bill, and I am really grateful that everybody else seems to be supporting it, but I have a few things I want to ask. First, there is a worry that people on zero-hours contracts might not meet the number of hours required to get the statutory benefits. I wonder if we might give some thought to having an average of the past 12 months’ earnings, particularly if the person has had time off to care for a sick child. Secondly, perhaps the age criteria with regard to the loss of a disabled child ought to be raised to recognise the lifelong responsibility of somebody who cares for a disabled child.

Thirdly, I met somebody from Bliss yesterday, who said that people on universal credit ought to be able to have some sort of entitlement, because if they lose a child, they need time to grieve as well. I am told that the way things are at the moment, they can be sanctioned. They can go to appeal and probably win, but the problem is losing the money in the first place. We have had the whole universal credit debate, so perhaps we could give some thought to that aspect.

Finally, on the time off that people take, my union, Unison, is suggesting that they have a week as a block and are then allowed to take odd days. You never know when you are going to have something come up like a funeral or a day when the grief just hits you, and you need a day off then.

Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Karen Lee Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

When I went through the Bill, I noted that the leave had to be taken within 56 days. That is less than two months. Not everyone will want to take leave immediately in that way, and I want to explore how we can give people the flexibility to take the leave when it suits them. The grief might hit them at a later date, for example. They might soldier on at first, going to work and having the funeral, only to find that it hits them a short while after that. That might be when they need to take leave. There might be a significant birthday relating to their child, or some other significant event that they wish to spend time on. I believe that the period within which the leave can be taken should be longer than 56 days and more flexible. We need to show a greater understanding of people’s needs in this regard.

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

When I lost my daughter, she was grown up—she was not a child—and I want to suggest that people might need to take leave on odd days. I know that that is not easy to facilitate, but people do not know when grief is going to hit them.

[Kevin Foster]

I am sorry to hear about the hon. Lady’s experience. It would be interesting to hear the Minister’s response to that suggestion as well. Perhaps the leave should not simply be a block of two weeks; after all, this is not like taking a holiday. Events such as the child’s birthday or something else that the family was looking forward to might crop up, and perhaps employers could allow the bereaved person to take their leave in two separate weeks or in separate days over a period, rather than as a two-week block. Also, I wonder whether the Bill focuses too heavily on the funeral as the main event. Clearly, it is a difficult day and people will want to take time off around it, but not necessarily two weeks. As the hon. Lady says, there might be other days, perhaps not too far in the future—a family wedding, for example—that will also be difficult for the parent and taking time off at that point would be appropriate. I thank her for her intervention.

I hope that the Minister noted what she said and will reflect on it in his contribution. In amendment 23, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran proposes to increase the amount of leave that can be taken to up to a year, but I want to reassure people that my amendments are about ensuring that things are not too tough or quick after the event.

My third group of amendments—9 to 11—relate to the requirement for notice and the ability to create such a requirement. Given the nature of the provision, I feel that it is more appropriate to examine creating a requirement for a reasonable notice period. It is safe to say that such events will rarely be predictable, and we have heard testimony in the Chamber before from Members who have gone through a stillbirth. Something wonderful is expected to happen, and people plan for it and look forward to it, but what happens instead is a shattering experience. I am worried that if we are too prescriptive about requirements to give notice, we could create a situation in which the bereaved find themselves having to comply with a particularly tough notice period requirement or having to deal with their employer in a particular way. I accept that the vast majority of employers would bend over backwards if an employee went through this type of situation, but we need the law to deal with the handful that would not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

My hon. Friend is right. In a small or micro-business with four or five employees, the relationship may feel more like a partnership, instead of a situation involving the boss and then four members of staff. I accept that we may need to be slightly more prescriptive for larger employers, but I do not want the legislation to become so prescriptive that it provides a way for someone who wants to get every last penny out of their employee to avoid the regulations. However, we need to be a bit more prescriptive to deal with some of the examples that have been cited.

[Karen Lee]

It is just as important that an employee is supported when they go back to work. I was working on a hospital ward, and the people were just fantastic. People can say anything about the NHS, but it was wonderful to me. I had something like 10 weeks off while nursing my daughter, and when I went back I was doing audits of heart attacks for MINAP—the Myocardial Ischaemia National Audit Project—cleaning cupboards and all sorts of things. It was about six weeks before I went near a patient again. Every business is different, but people cannot just walk back in and pretend that everything is the same as it was on the day they left after their world has been turned upside down. It is vital that that is taken into consideration.

[Kevin Foster]

It is apt to reflect on the NHS, which provides such support to its staff as well as to its patients, in its 70th year. The hon. Lady is right that it is not just about leave. The employer will need to behave reasonably when the employee comes back.

As I have said, an employer would not feel comfortable about a person doing certain jobs if they have just suffered such a bereavement. Few of us would suggest it is a good idea to fly a plane the next day, for example, or to do something that requires absolute concentration—I am pretty sure the military have quite strong provisions on leave or, at the very least, on excusing people from particular duties. If a person’s mind is elsewhere, if they have had their life turned upside down, they will not be in the mood to do air traffic control, for example. It is appropriate that employers think about that when a bereaved parent comes back from leave.

It is hard to legislate for every instance, and thankfully many employers are very good and are fairly understanding. The Bill sets a legal minimum.