Ministry of Defence (Procurement)

Debate between Julian Lewis and Alison Seabeck

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Dr Lewis]

There is always the possibility that people will change their mind when they see different circumstances, but I genuinely feel that that has not applied in this case as a result of what I was about to explain and what hon. Members will remember. Out of the blue, even though the procurement of a replacement and successor system for Trident had specifically been excluded from the terms of the security and defence review, on the day when the statement was made, publishing the review and presenting it to Parliament, we were told that the main gate decision, the contracts for Trident would be put off until after the next election. With the greatest respect to the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), there was no doubt at all that that had nothing to do with hard facts or realities creeping in, and everything to do with politics, as the letter subsequently sent out from the president of the Liberal Democrats, crowing in triumph at the delay of the Trident decision, made clear.

I must not wander too far from the procurement emphasis of this debate. Therefore, I would like to put a specific question to my hon. Friend the Defence Minister with responsibility for procurement issues. It relates to the study that is being done about alternative systems to Trident as a possible nuclear deterrent. That is being done as a gift, a present, a political offering to the Liberal Democrats in the coalition, and I believe that the study is being carried out by the Cabinet Office rather than the Ministry of Defence, although the Ministry of Defence is supplying the material to the Cabinet Office.

I have to say to the Minister that any halfway competent assessment team, facing the problem of examining the existing and the potential systems for carrying a nuclear deterrent in the future, could do a comprehensive study over a period of probably not more than two or three months and arguably over a few weeks, on the basis of the accumulated knowledge of half a century that we have in the business of strategic nuclear deterrence. I would therefore like to know what progress such a study is making or whether it will in fact be spun out until the next general election. The reality is that there is no alternative to Trident for the next generation of the strategic nuclear deterrent, and I suspect that my political opponents in the CND ranks would agree.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

Just as an aside, does the hon. Gentleman have any concerns that the study was one of the documents put in the waste paper bin in the park?

[Dr Lewis]

I do not mind so much when unclassified documents are thrown away, but I do mind when this country’s basic protection is thrown away. I really do not want to see another hung Parliament, with both major parties having gone into an election proclaiming their commitment to the next generation of the nuclear deterrent, only for a small third party that is adamantly opposed to that deterrent, but which does not have the guts to wear its unilateralism openly, to blackmail the leaders of those two parties in turn, saying, “You get rid of this weapons system and we will make you Prime Minister.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Hood. This is my first opportunity to speak as shadow Minister since the Minister’s warm welcome last week at Defence Question Time. Looking back through Hansard, it is a little surprising that this is the first Westminster Hall debate on procurement since the last election, with the exception of two half-hour debates. I therefore warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) on securing this debate. He certainly ranged widely, as promised, and highlighted the broad scope and reach of the Ministry of Defence in procurement. There are major challenges in balancing defence equipment needs while ensuring value for money and retaining the essential skills base to support sovereign capability.

I know that I am not the only MP in the Chamber who has a sizeable defence community in their constituency. Before the last election, my constituency was called Plymouth Devonport, which included Her Majesty’s naval base at Devonport. Thanks to the Boundary Commission, it looks like it might be coming back at the next general election, but we shall see. For me and many hon. Members, providing the right equipment to our troops when they need it, so that they can carry out the work for which they have been trained to the best of their ability, is of upmost importance. A number of hon. Members in the Chamber and I have constituencies filled with military personnel and their families, and I often pick up concerns on the doorstep. I should say at this point that I am delighted to have 29 Commando back in Plymouth, safe and sound. It is right and proper to debate the issues here today.

I listened with interest to the speech made by the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey and particularly to his reference to the British Army training unit, Suffield, based in Alberta on the Canadian prairies. It is worth noting that the reason why the British Army started to use that training site was due to the loss of El Adem and Tobruk in Libya when a certain Colonel Gaddafi came to power. The hon. Gentleman’s point about the need for bases in secure venues is absolutely right. Suffield was used briefly during world war two, and since 1972 it has been used as a British Army training base, initially on a 10-year lease. The agreement has been repeatedly renewed, which the hon. Gentleman touched on. I believe that a rolling programme of indefinite use is being offered. I note his comments and questions regarding that area. Other hon. Members also quite rightly challenged whether money was being best spent by the MOD on upgrading the premises there. I will listen with interest to the Minister’s answers to those questions.

The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey also touched on morale and beer prices, and he raised a genuine concern about how new companies break into the MOD marketplace, to which I will come later in my speech.

My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) flagged up some potential problems, such as the need to secure the skills agenda and the loss of historic capability in Barrow, which is a lesson that we cannot forget. He also spoke about the implications of delays for contracts and cost overruns that follow.

The hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), in supporting concerns about the rotation of staff in procurement, raised a challenging issue. That did not used to be the case, because officers used to be retained within certain specialties, and a number of senior and ex-members of the armed forces have spoken to me on exactly that issue in the past. I hope that the Minister will respond to that, because that area deserves consideration.

My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) asked a series of serious questions about Trident replacement and whether it is needed. He has always campaigned on that issue with a great deal of commitment. Again, I want to hear what the Minister has to say about the time scale and transparency regarding Trident.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) raised the issues of contracts and transparency and of the cost of the over-specification of projects.

The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) is on the flip side of the coin from my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North. He described, with benefit of his long-standing interest and knowledge in defence matters, some of the problems regarding procurement and politicians’ role in muddying the waters, if I am to be gentle about what is going on in the coalition regarding Trident.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

Because there has been such candour on Government Benches about muddied waters, for the sake of clarity, will the hon. Lady take the opportunity to reaffirm her party’s firm commitment that Trident should be renewed and replaced by the successor system?

[Alison Seabeck]

The hon. Gentleman and I both stood on manifesto pledges that said exactly that. I also thank him for his kind comments in welcoming me to my new role.

I would like to look more generally to the future of defence procurement. It would be remiss of me not to thank my predecessor in this role, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), for his work alongside that of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) in taking forward Labour’s review on defence procurement—not least in commissioning the report from Admiral Lord West, Bill Thomas from Hewlett Packard and Tony Roulstone from Rolls-Royce Nuclear. I thank them for their incredibly detailed and thought-provoking report, which builds on the work carried out under the previous Government by Bernard Gray, who has been brought in by this Government as the new Chief of Defence Matériel.

In response to questions last week, the Minister told me that he had read the report, although from our exchange last Monday, I think that there might be some differences in interpretation. However, I believe that we need, on the back of the report and Lord Levene’s excellent work, to look at structural reforms and at how, despite repeated attempts by successive Governments, we have failed to tackle overpriced and overrun projects. The Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office have clear views and some pretty sharp criticism on that. The Gray report did not mince its words either when talking about overheating in the equipment programme and the inability of the system to flesh out the real cost of equipment at an early stage.

We need to have a defence procurement policy that works with an active industrial policy—one that promotes defence exports, an area in which we in Britain excel and should continue to do so. The hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), who is no longer in his seat, pointed that out. While value for money is clearly important, so is the quality of the product supplied to our armed forces, and British products are among the best. More than 21% of the global market in the past five years was met by British production, and we are the largest exporter to the European Union. Also, there is evidence that competition in the export market leads to an enhanced drive for innovation and improvement in those companies, from which the MOD could benefit. The make or buy proposals in the report submitted to the shadow defence team—it is good reading—deserve some further consideration. We all agree that we need a sustainable defence industrial base that can continue to deliver in the long term. Will the Minister let us have his thoughts on the proposal in the Gray report for a 10-year rolling budget, which does not seem to have found full favour with the current Government?

The hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) was absolutely right to say that small and medium-sized enterprises need a degree of long-term certainty when it comes to supporting programmes, particularly bigger programmes. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North rightly mentioned the need for diversification of industry. It is all to the good if companies can diversify and find other markets, but there are a number of firms, of which I have several in my constituency, that are incredibly specialised in what they do. They provide bespoke products for defence purposes and it is difficult for them to expand, change or move on from what they do.

I welcome the Minister’s thoughts on all those issues. Will he tell us what sort of relationship he has with his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and what the feelings are about the need to join up procurement policy, which is such an important element in all this?

Finally, is the Minister happy that, for future procurement policy, there is a clear enough delineation between the absolute sovereign capability and the deployment sovereign capability? Is that something that will be made clear in the expected White Paper? Given the ever-changing nature of conflict, the need for greater co-operation between nations, the drive to secure British business opportunities in this field and the economic challenges that we face, we need to ensure that Governments now and in the future have in place the best systems through which to deliver equipment that is designed to enable the front-line soldier to survive, operate and fight. We also need the best technology and back-up for our armed forces, so that they can deliver force wherever and whenever it is required. I look forward to the new White Paper, because there is a real opportunity to make a difference in this particular sphere of MOD procurement.

Submarines and Frigates (Plymouth)

Debate between Julian Lewis and Alison Seabeck

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to participate in the debate under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. It is also a great pleasure to see my hon. Friend the Minister in situ to respond to the debate, and I am sure that he will be as typically robust in responding in government as he was in opposition.

It is a particular pleasure to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) on initiating the debate and on ranging so widely in his approach to it. We would err if we focused entirely on basing without considering, as he did, the larger issues of the state of the Royal Navy, the country’s strategic requirements from it and the amount that the country feels it can spend on it.

I want to start, however, by taking up some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who rightly said at the beginning of her speech that events in the middle east have rearranged the strategic furniture, as it were. She will not have been surprised by that, given that the odds are, strange to relate, usually very great that it will come as a surprise when some sort of conflict breaks out in that way. When conflicts have yet to break out, and still more when we are already fighting in such conflicts, it therefore behoves us not to be too dogmatic and rigid as we make arrangements for the Royal Navy and, indeed, the other armed services.

[Alison Seabeck]

I am merely pointing out that such conflicts come as a surprise, but is it not always the Navy that seems to be the first responder?

[Dr Lewis]

I will try to be as non-partisan between the services as possible but, following the hon. Lady’s provocation, I cannot resist pointing out that the Navy would have been an even quicker responder to the Libyan crisis had we not decided shortly before that blew up to take our last remaining aircraft carrier out of service. I have raised that issue a number of times, particularly with the Foreign Secretary, who on the most recent occasion informed me—I am sorry that he has such a low opinion of my knowledge of things nautical—that an aircraft carrier would not have been necessary because a Tornado could not be flown from it. I am reassured to know that the Government are well aware of which aircraft can fly from aircraft carriers and which cannot, but I do not hesitate to say that if we had had an aircraft carrier in commission when the events in Libya blew up so unexpectedly, I would have bet the farm on the fact that that particular warship—an aircraft carrier—would have been the first to be dispatched to the Mediterranean in response. It is very unwise to make decisions in peacetime, and still more unwise to make decisions when we are involved in not one but two conflicts simultaneously, that will bind us rigidly into circumstances that we might regret when the strategic situation changes as unexpectedly as it almost always does.

Let us consider the position with regard to frigates and submarines. I have never hesitated to say that the 1998 strategic defence review was a well thought-out document. The problem, as we know, was that the plans it outlined were not fully funded, although at least one had the feeling that a theory was being set out, which meant that some sort of balance was understood and some sort of flexibility was retained. We did not take the view that because our circumstances in the world were more limited in terms of the interventions we could make, we should reshape our defence forces in such a way that we would be incapable of responding to an unexpected crisis as we had responded in the past.

At one point during the years of the Labour Government, a naval base review was carried out. My hon. Friend the Minister will recall that we, as the shadow defence team in opposition, were adamant that it would be most unwise to rely on only two naval bases in the entire country, one of which would be in Scotland and the other in either Portsmouth or Devonport. In particular, we had regard to the argument put forward so eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport in his introduction to the debate: if we put all our eggs in one basket, or all our ships in one or two ports—one at one end of the country and one at the far end from that—we will be in danger of the basket of eggs getting smashed or the ships getting bottled up. We therefore argued strongly for retaining the ports at Devonport and at Portsmouth, and it would be a grave mistake to change that argument now. If we believe that it is strategically wise, strategically necessary and, I would say, strategically essential to continue to have the potential to use both Devonport and Portsmouth as naval bases in the future—I can never emphasise enough that we cannot predict the future—it follows that we must spread out our assets to ensure that both ports remain viable. I have no prejudice as to which assets should be in Portsmouth and which should be in Devonport, but some assets should be in each of the two ports.

The Labour Government took office in 1997, and when their SDR was undertaken we had a total of 35 frigates and destroyers. The deal done in the SDR was that in return for the great future promise and asset of two large aircraft carriers, the number of frigates would be modestly reduced from 35 to 32, and the number of attack submarines—nuclear-powered, but not nuclear-armed—would be reduced from 12 to 10. We know what happened over the years: the number of frigates went down successively from 35 to 32, as predicted, and then to 31 and 25. If I remember correctly, at the last count the figure had gone down to 19. It is true that during that period six new Daring class—Type 45 —destroyers came into play, and they are, of course, much more powerful, potent and potentially lethal, so one could argue that they are a much better deterrent than the destroyers they replaced. However, one should fight shy of getting into the position that Geoff Hoon, the then Secretary of State for Defence, got into of saying that because a new warship is so much more powerful than the warship it replaces, the number of “platforms”, as they used to say—the number of ships to the rest of us—becomes irrelevant. That is not true, because no matter how powerful a warship is, it can be in only one place at any one time. Unfortunately, but necessarily, the activities of the Royal Navy often have to take place in many places simultaneously. At the moment, we are considering what we should do in relation to events in Libya.

There is something else that slightly bothers me: I lost count of the number of times that Conservative spokesmen said in opposition that although we could not be sure whether we would spend more money on defence until we saw what the books actually said about the economics, we would definitely keep expenditure on defence in line with the commitments undertaken. I often stood up and said that we would need either to spend more on defence or to reduce our commitments. In reality, as we know, we are very stretched indeed as a result of the ongoing commitment in Afghanistan, and we now find ourselves suddenly with an additional commitment in Libya. After some prodding, the Foreign Secretary conceded that its cost, on which I was rather aggravatingly pressing him, would be met from the Treasury reserve, but all signs are that the commitment to a Libyan no-fly zone will not prove decisive in ousting Colonel Gaddafi, even though it may prove, and arguably has proved, effective in preventing him from initiating the wholesale mass slaughter that he was not only ruthless enough but stupid enough to announce to the world that he intended to visit on the citizens of Benghazi.

If those two statements are true—first, that the no-fly zone will not be enough to oust Gaddafi and, secondly, that it will nevertheless be effective in limiting the massacre of innocent civilians, which was our purpose for intervening—the logical consequence is that the commitment will go on for a considerable time. The Government will have to think hard about what they are prepared to spend on defence.

The Government cannot meet the costs from Treasury reserves indefinitely. We all know what then happens: we tend to get ourselves into the situation encountered by Tony Blair, who said towards the end of his time as Prime Minister that spending on defence had remained roughly constant at 2.5% of gross domestic product throughout the decade of Labour rule, but then added the crucial words, “if the costs of Iraq and Afghanistan are included.” In other words, the cost of those two wars was effectively being counted as part of our basic expenditure on defence. Such a thing will always happen.

The Government must think clearly about whether to put the economic case at the top of their agenda or whether to put up there instead the ability to intervene, as we have intervened in Libya. They cannot have it both ways. Many countries, including in Europe, would doubtless love to be able to intervene to stop massacres in Benghazi, but they do not do so—or not more than minimally—because their simple view is, “Well, we’re very sorry but we’re too small, too ineffective, too weak and too poor, and we cannot afford to maintain the armed forces necessary to do that sort of thing.” That is fair enough.