Post Office Redress and Funding

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Thomas]

I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend. I recognise that post offices are a fundamental part of every one of our communities in the UK. That is one of the reasons why the Government have been clear that we adhere to and support the commitment on various access requirements to ensure that every community has good access to post office facilities. On directly managed branches, she will know that no decision on the future of all those branches, or indeed any individual branch, has been taken. I recognise that she has particular concerns about the branch in Kennington, and I am happy to meet her to discuss that.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I am glad that the Minister chose to reference the excellent work done on behalf of the postmasters by Lord Beamish, who is better known to many of us as our former colleague Kevan Jones. I hope that the whole House will join me in congratulating him on his appointment today as the new Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee—an appointment, by the way, by his fellow Committee members, which is exactly as it should be done.

May I gently ask the Minister—this may go slightly outwith his Department’s responsibilities—whether there is any news or progress about the question of prosecutions for criminal conspiracy? That is something I have raised before. That is one thing that might act as a deterrent to this sort of terrible behaviour by a gilded, self-selecting class of people who think that their institutional importance is greater than truth or justice.

[Gareth Thomas]

I am certainly happy to echo the right hon. Member’s congratulations to the noble Lord Beamish and to emphasise again my appreciation for his work on championing the concerns of those who are victims of the Capture software. He is one of those whom we will continue to work with going forward as we put together redress and think about these issues more generally.

Specifically on prosecutions, the right hon. Member may be aware that the Metropolitan police has confirmed that it has established a unit and is looking at a number of issues to do with how the Post Office operated. He will understand that, quite rightly, Ministers are not involved in those decisions, but the information that I have set out is publicly available. We will obviously all have to wait to see what happens in that regard.

UK Supply Chains: Uyghur Forced Labour

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alexander]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Since 2022, the US has been operating an import ban targeting goods from Xinjiang under the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act. The Act sets out a rebuttable presumption that goods made in Xinjiang or produced by certain listed entities use forced labour. It is right to recognise that the State Department bears the significant cost implications of that. We as a Government certainly view import controls as one of the range of tools that could be used to tackle forced labour in global supply chains, and that is why we continue to engage with like-minded partners—Governments and businesses—to figure out exactly what is the most effective response.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Is not the root of the problem

the fact that successive British Governments, from David Cameron’s onwards, have been willing to cuddle and cosy up to a communist totalitarian state, while trying to preserve some pretence of distancing themselves from direct human rights abuses? In reality, is it not the case that as long as we try to have major economic relations with a totalitarian state, it will always be possible for that state to divert the slave labour products to its domestic economy and export the other products to us? So that action is really only a fig leaf, isn’t it?

[Mr Alexander]

The right hon. Gentleman brings many years of experience to the bilateral relationship between the United Kingdom and China, and he will find no disagreement on this side of the House when he calls out the disastrous foreign policy mistakes of the former Member for Witney. We seem to have ended up with the worst of both worlds in relation to China. First, there was a credulous naivety during the so-called golden era, when the then Chancellor and Prime Minister did not recognise the appropriate national interests of the United Kingdom. This was followed by a period when the United Kingdom, almost uniquely, seemed to be in the deep freeze. The last time a Prime Minister of this country met President Xi Jinping was, I understand, under the former Member for Maidenhead. Our approach was neither clear-eyed nor capable of communicating influence; nor did it allow us to raise human rights issues in the way that we wanted to.

The responsible course for a British Government is to recognise the complexity of the bilateral relationship, and the fact that there are significant trade dependencies and geopolitical challenges. The right and responsible course is the approach that has been taken since 4 July. The Prime Minister had a meeting with Xi Jinping a couple of weeks back, but clearly said that engagement will be pragmatic, and based on a clear-eyed sense of where Britain’s national interest lies. Alas, we have not seen that clarity or that steady stewarding of the British national interest over the past 14 years, but I am relieved that, through the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister, we have brought a different dimension to the relationship in the last five months.

Stellantis Luton

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Reynolds]

My hon. Friend makes some very good points about the fact that while nearly every major market has policies of this kind, ours operates in a different way from how the French, for example, proceeded with theirs. I agree that the major failing of the former Prime Minister’s speech was to keep this policy in place, but change the destination—that makes no coherent sense whatsoever. Logically, he should have done one or the other; doing both undermines confidence while still not providing the pragmatic flexibilities we are talking about today. The specific points that my hon. Friend has mentioned will all be part of the consultation that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will lead on.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I assure the Secretary of State that I would have put the question I am about to ask to a Conservative Minister equally. If all British car manufacturers came together and told the Government that they could not possibly meet this 2030 goal, would the Government nevertheless persevere in maintaining it as an immovable target?

UK Trade Performance

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

We have been doing a lot in Northern Ireland to increase investment and make up for any shortfall, whether through our trade deals or otherwise. The Windsor framework, for example, is one thing that the Prime Minister has worked on to iron out some of those issues. We are looking at where Northern Ireland can exploit the benefits of being part of both the EU single market and the UK single market, which is a unique position. We know that there are some areas in which things are not exactly the same as in GB, but we can look individually in specific trade deals at what we can do. In services, for example, that should not be an issue; we really see the difference in goods. We can do a lot more and we continue to work on that.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, if we cast our minds back to the time of covid, when we were spending hundreds of billions of pounds just to keep the country functioning, none of us could have imagined sets of statistics as positive as those that she has given us? May I re-emphasise a point that has already been made in slightly different terms? There appear to be eight times as many people sitting on the Conservative Front Bench as there are on the entirety of the Labour Back Benches. Does she take that as a vote of confidence in the Government’s positive message?

[Kemi Badenoch]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is clear that Labour does not like good news. As soon as there is any, Labour Members exit the Chamber unless they absolutely have to be here. It is disgraceful that there is not a single Back-Bench Labour Member, other than the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne). The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), is blushing because she knows that it is true. That is one reason why it is important for us not to assume that people see these statistics. If we do not talk about them, nobody else will. Enough people out there—certainly on the Labour Benches—will tell us how terrible everything is, but we need to remind people about the good that is happening.

Financial Risk Checks for Gambling

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 Westminster Hall

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

My hon. Friend does not even need to talk about products that are that addictive. As one of my constituents has pointed out, no one checks on him if he spends £150 on a dinner for two people. Would he accept that, even if the principle is conceded that there should be some checks, the level at which this has been set is far too low?

[Philip Davies]

I very much agree with my right hon. Friend, as I happily do on most things. Of course people spend more than they should on all those other things, but the Government are snobbishly only treating punters as some kind of pariah, which I do not appreciate.

In Parliament, we should stand up for people’s freedoms. I was not elected to Parliament to stop everyone else doing all the things I do not happen to like myself, but some Members seem to think their job is to do nothing other than that. It is unacceptable that the Government, the Gambling Commission and the bookmakers will basically, between them, decide how much each individual punter can afford to spend on their betting, and the punter gets virtually no say whatsoever. It is completely outrageous. The Conservative party used to believe in individual freedom and individual responsibility, and some of us still do.

If we asked how much responsibility each group should take for determining how much somebody can afford to spend on betting, I doubt anyone would say that the individual concerned should have 0% responsibility, but that is the route down which we are in danger of going. It is absurd to think that bookmakers and regulators should be able to decide how much each individual person in the country should be allowed to spend on betting. When people open an online betting account or the next time they log in, perhaps they should be forced to enter how much they want to limit their spend over a fixed period. The responsibility for ensuring that they do not go over that should rest with the bookmaker, but not the decision as to how much they can afford in the first place.

Horizon: Compensation and Convictions

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

If individual employees of the Post Office face serious criminal charges for malicious prosecution or criminal conspiracy, how would the Minister feel if it turned out that the Post Office proposed to pay for their legal defence costs, given how it treated its own sub-postmasters?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I would not feel good about that at all. My right hon. Friend makes an important point. I will take it away and take advice on it. That would not seem to me to be an appropriate thing to do at all.

Youth Programmes and Girlguiding

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[Dame Caroline Dinenage]

I thank the hon. Gentleman so much for making such an excellent point. I did not mention the Girls’ Brigade and the Boys’ Brigade, which, as he says, make such a wonderful contribution. They build the formative skills that young people need to face the challenges of life ahead, and make such a huge difference to individuals’ lives.

That is why this decision to close down every single one of the five Girlguiding activity centres across the United Kingdom is so bizarre. Girlguiding is closing down opportunities for young women and girls who would otherwise struggle to afford them. This decision comes after the body blow to Girlguiding that is the move to end their overseas operation, which serves thousands of girls across the world and has been doing so for decades. Both of these utterly bizarre decisions came after no real warning and no consultation with members.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I have been watching this developing disaster with increasing horror. The reason that may lie behind some of it appears to be a disastrous venture into property investment. Does my hon. Friend know about the headquarters of the girl guides, which spent millions on itself, and millions more on a hotel venture that went bust, owing unpaid rent to the girl guides of nearly £2.8 million? All that is alleged to be completely unconnected to the decision to close the overseas activities and the training and activity centres, one of which, Foxlease, is in my constituency. This reminds me of the Black Knight in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”, with the exception that it is cutting its own limbs off and not waiting for other people to do it.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage]

I was not aware of that. My right hon. Friend has been a great friend to Girlguiding in Foxlease in his constituency and a great champion of Girlguiding across the country. What he says is incredibly worrying; there has been very little information at all about the thinking behind these decisions, so his comments about the potential reasons are interesting.

As my right hon. Friend says, one of the centres to be sold is Foxlease in Clay Hill in Hampshire, which is the closest one to my constituency. There is also Waddow Hall in the Ribble Valley, which is very close to the heart of our much-loved Mr Deputy Speaker; Blackland Farm in Mid Sussex; Glenbrook in High Peak, Derbyshire; and Ynysgain in Montgomeryshire on the edge of the Snowdonia national park.

These decisions do not merely affect Girlguiding members, but many others across the country. The closing activity centres do not just serve young girls in Girlguiding; they run courses and activities and provide opportunities for all sorts of groups of young people, including scouts, schools and many others. If the activity centres are sold off, there is no bringing them back—that’s it. They will be gone and will not be providing opportunities for young women and countless other young people. They will simply be turned into another relic of a wonderful past where children could be children.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage]

My right hon. Friend puts it perfectly. I could not have put it better myself. The girls are concerned about the future—for their peers and those who come up behind them, who deserve the same opportunities and life chances they have had. We only have to look as far as Scotland to see what is likely to happen here in England.

Back in summer 2020, Girlguiding Scotland sold off its wonderful training centre at Netherurd under the guise of covid, and the site has now already been rubber-stamped into holiday lets. It looks as though we might even now be too late to get Girlguiding to change its mind. It confirmed its plan to go ahead with the sale on 14 August. Local communities have been valiant in their fight to save the activity centres. Foxlease has already been declared an asset of community value by New Forest District Council, in the area where my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East resides, in a move that will hopefully enable the new charity, Foxie’s Future, to take up the mantle and save the site; and the Waddow Hall Trust in the Ribble Valley is following suit with similar plans, as are others.

I wish all these groups the very best in acquiring and maintaining their sites should they be sold off by Girlguiding but, importantly, I want to know from the Minister what the Government are going to do to prevent the sites from falling into the hands of property developers to become more holiday lets? What are the Government going to do to ensure that the important capacity for outdoor activities is maintained across the UK and kept available at a low cost for those who could not otherwise afford them?

We live in a digital world. Going out and playing with friends is becoming a rarity for some children, which is why it is so important that we expand organised outdoor activity and so alarming to see plans to take that away from children. It is not just young people in the UK who are being impacted by Girlguiding’s short-sighted decision. The decision to end Girlguiding Overseas will bring a close to well over 100 years of Girlguiding across the world. Up until this month, British Girlguiding Overseas operated in 36 separate countries and territories. Those operations are all now either shut or shutting. That momentous decision has seemingly been taken without any proper consultation. British Girlguiding Overseas has said in a statement that it still does not understand why Girlguiding took the decision and that, despite many requests for further information, no information has been delivered.

It is important to note that the end of British Girlguiding Overseas will not only shut down opportunities for thousands of girls across the world, but take away the important English-speaking girl-only spaces that have for so long provided a lifeline to so many members. British Girlguiding Overseas consists of two main elements: units that run in the middle east, Africa, Asia, Benelux and France, Europe and lone guiding, and the units in British Overseas Territories. Although Girlguiding continues to support the Crown dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, the many other territories served by the organisations are set to lose all their support. That will be felt particularly acutely by our overseas territories, which have very special links with the UK. They are often taken for granted, yet in many cases those often remote parts of the world, such as Bermuda or the Falkland Islands, see this country as their big sister—someone who looks out for them. At a time when the world feels particularly unstable, and when the UK needs to be looking out, not in, taking away support and casting branches away to fend for themselves is an incredible retrograde step that will undoubtedly lead to branches collapsing and opportunities for young girls simply melting away. It is also a retrograde step for our global soft power. We hear so much about that, and focus so much energy and attention on it, and yet here we are, taking it away.

British Girlguiding Overseas has not simply rolled over and allowed this step to take place without action, and it should be commended for its efforts in trying to secure alternative solutions, but the shock announcement and rapid deadline set by Girlguiding has left it few options.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; she is being generous with her time. Does she agree that it is almost as if the people at the top of the organisation, who do not seem to be answerable even to their own council, still less their own mass membership, are determined to take steps that are bound to lead to the closure of the organisation? Given that the organisation seems to have a very undemocratic structure, does my hon. Friend agree that we ought to look to the Minister for support for the idea of the Charity Commission investigating what has been going on in the organisation, which appears to have strayed far from its founding objectives?

[Dame Caroline Dinenage]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that sensible suggestion, to which I am sure the excellent Minister will respond. It sounds as if the upper echelons of Girlguiding are standing around with their fingers in their ears, humming loudly; they have rejected applications for an extension to continue discussions, they have rejected the request from British Girlguiding Overseas to become a charity in its own right, and they have rejected British Girlguiding Overseas’ request to set up a separate franchise.

I will bring my thoughts to a close so that we can hear from the Minister. The Government are aware of Girlguiding’s plans to end British Girlguiding Overseas, and I would be keen to hear the Minister’s thoughts on them. I urge him to do whatever it takes to get Girlguiding around the table to help to stop British Girlguiding Overseas coming to an end. These are two retrograde moves: terrible steps backwards for girl guides, terrible steps backwards for young girls and young people across the UK and across the world, and terrible steps backwards for our global soft power. I am keen to hear how the Government can help to push back against those disastrous moves and safeguard the future of guides in the UK and globally.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Stuart Andrew)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) for securing this important debate. I also thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my right hon. Friends the Members for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) and for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), who have spoken in the debate and collared me on these issues when they can. Others have not been able to contribute but share their passion, including Mr Deputy Speaker, the right hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans), and the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Mims Davies).

A thriving youth sector is a critical part of so much that my Department and the whole of Government are hoping to achieve for young people. Approximately 85% of a young person’s waking hours are spent outside school, and it is during this time that thousands of youth workers and volunteers make a tremendous difference to young people’s lives, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport mentioned. They provide early intervention, help to reduce pressures on other public services and build trusted relationships, enabling young people to achieve their ambitions.

I was recently fortunate enough to visit a National Citizen Service residential in Doncaster and see how transformational youth services can be. The impact that such activities and trusted relationships provide cannot be underestimated. The young people told me at first hand that they felt more confident and had overcome some of their personal fears, developed new skills and made new friends, sometimes with people from backgrounds they had never mixed with before. All this gets amplified around the country, and I thank the volunteers involved.

I know that many right hon. and hon. Members present will have been disappointed to learn that Girlguiding has decided to sell its five activity centres in the UK and cease overseas operations. Having seen at first hand the benefits that young people can gain by participating in programmes hosted by organisations such as Girlguiding, I share that disappointment. However, as Members will know, Girlguiding is an independent organisation and its board of trustees has a fiscal responsibility to take decisions in the organisation’s best interests in order to secure its future and the safety of its members. The board tells us that it has not taken the decision lightly. That said, I understand the disappointment about the lack of consultation, which would enable people to make their views known.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I fully recognise that this matter falls outside the Minister’s responsibilities, but does he agree that where millions of pounds appear to have been fire-hosed away from the objectives of the organisation, and where there is clearly a lack of internal democratic accountability, we have to look to the Charity Commission as a last resort to see whether the mismanagement can, even now, be limited in its terrible effects?

[Stuart Andrew]

My right hon. Friend raises a very important point. Of course, as a registered charity, Girlguiding is obliged to do the usual reporting. Anybody can raise any case with the Charity Commission, and colleagues may feel that they want to take that step.

I will outline a bit more what we have heard from Girlguiding. I understand that its decision to close the five activity centres is due to the significant capital investment required to ensure that they are fit for purpose, but it also reflects the ongoing running costs in the light of low levels of demand from Girlguiding groups. It is anticipated that funds from the sale of the activity centres, valued collectively at around £10 million, will be invested in a range of activities to support the future of Girlguiding and its members, including adventures away from home.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart Andrew]

My right hon. Friend will appreciate that I cannot make a commitment to stray into those areas of work, but I will absolutely and happily raise with my colleagues in DLUHC the issue that she brought up. I know that it was a big issue when I held that post for a short time, but I recognise that there will be concerns locally about what will happen to those sites. I will happily address those concerns to my hon. Friends in that Department.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I will take the opportunity to stress that when Girlguiding UK says that only 10% of the movement uses the five centres, we are still talking about tens of thousands of young people. The response to the situation has been not, “We have to close one centre in order to subsidise the others”, but, “We have to close the whole lot while simultaneously losing millions upon millions of pounds on inappropriate investment in property hotel ventures.” That has to be questioned. The reason for donating Foxlease to Girlguiding 101 years ago was not so that it could be used for commercial development; it was donated to be used by young people.

[Sir George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. I need to bring the Minister back in now. We are very short of time.

PANS and PANDAS

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd, and to respond to this debate. To be clear, I can respond only on healthcare services in England, and not on behalf of Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, because health is a devolved issue. I can, however, give a commitment to hon. Members that I am happy to work with colleagues in the devolved nations on this very important issue.

I welcome the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare), to her place. It is slightly disappointing that she chose to be so political—I thought we had quite a good cross-party consensus in this debate. I thank the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) for providing the opportunity to raise awareness of paediatric acute-onset neuropsychiatric syndrome, or PANS, and paediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders associated with streptococcal infections, known as PANDAS.

We have heard from Members how important the issue is. I thank them for describing the experiences of their constituents and the issues that they have faced. I recently met the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on PANS and PANDAS, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar), to discuss the lack of guidance on diagnosis, treatment and assessment for children who suffer from either of those conditions, and about the lack of awareness across the medical profession in all parts of the health service. I absolutely agree that we need more research and evidence to improve our understanding of the conditions and to better support the families affected.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

The Minister will have heard the excellent speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), who talked about taking it on himself to send leaflets to his GPs to raise awareness. Does the Department have a mechanism for alerting all GPs to these conditions, which seem to be relatively unknown? If so, could GPs be encouraged by her Department to consider prescribing amoxicillin or a similar antibiotic at a very early stage, because that seems to be an almost risk-free option?

[Maria Caulfield]

The Department does not regularly write to GPs because the NHS is operationally independent, but NHS England does and we can certainly speak to NHS England colleagues. They send out regular bulletins on a range of issues to GPs, so I will speak to my primary care colleagues to see whether that is possible. We do not have enough information at the moment about how many children in the UK are affected by PANS and PANDAS. In the US, scientists have suggested that the prevalence there could be as high as one in 200 children.

We have specifically talked about the United Kingdom and England today. Although there is a classification now by the World Health Organisation, very few countries issue guidance on the diagnosis, treatment, assessment and management of PANS/PANDAS, because the scientific evidence is so sparse. When I met my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, we talked about how we can get that evidence base so that we can issue guidance to primary and secondary care providers. We know that symptoms tend to come on suddenly.

We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) about the example of Jack and the difference that a diagnosis made. It is often following an infection that children who are healthy and developmentally on track suddenly start exhibiting OCD or other neuropsychiatric symptoms. The hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) is correct that very often a course of antibiotics can improve and tackle some of the symptoms that parents say can change a child overnight such that they can no longer attend school and are suddenly plagued by anxiety and other neurological symptoms.

PANS and PANDAS require a clinical diagnosis based on specific signs and symptoms observed by a clinician. There are currently no lab tests or biomarkers that specifically diagnose those conditions. There is also an element of excluding other diagnoses in the process of diagnosing PANS and PANDAS. That means other illnesses or diseases are considered first rather than assuming it could be PANS and PANDAS.

Although there are currently no national or European clinical guidelines on assessment, investigations or diagnosis, a multidisciplinary team referral often helps speed the process up. That is why we need our primary care colleagues to be aware that this could be the cause of symptoms and to get those referrals in as quickly as possible.

Local Radio: BBC Proposals

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) on securing this debate, and on his excellent opening remarks. I absolutely agree with what the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Lia Nici) has just said. I share Radio Humberside with her, and we are committed across the Humber: all 10 Members of Parliament representing the area covered by BBC Radio Humberside support that radio station and value it. We know that it is rooted in our community, it works all year round and it is indispensable in emergencies. As a number of Members have said, the local BBC is more trusted than the national BBC.

I will concentrate on the proposal to end local radio at 2 pm on weekdays and at weekends. I see that as part of a process: it seems like the next lot of cuts are already in train. Why is that? We know that the linear radio medium is not dying due to inevitable technology-driven trends; it is a deliberate cull, a decision on behalf of the BBC. There are still 5.7 million BBC local radio listeners, spread fairly evenly throughout the day, and Radio Joint Audience Research listening figures show that 59.4% of BBC Radio Humberside’s audience listen on FM. Only about 0.4% listen via BBC Sounds, and 8% listen on smart speakers.

BBC management are using the damaging effect of the previous lot of cuts on ratings to justify this next set of cuts. With 95% of the local radio audience listening from outside London, these cuts would mean a more London-centric and metropolitan BBC. We know that commercial radio will not replace BBC local public service radio, and that downgrading local news adds to the growing news desert problem. In addition, as a number of Members have said, there has been no impact assessment of the effect of those cuts on the 34% who are digitally excluded—the poorer, the lonely, the over-50s, those with disabilities, and those in rural and coastal areas. Digital services cannot replace live local radio, and linear radio provides most of the content for digital.

I also want to say something about BBC staff and to pay tribute, as the hon. Member for Great Grimsby did, to some of the employees in Radio Humberside who have already left. That includes David Burns—Burnsy—a popular morning presenter who has gone already. BBC staff have felt humiliated, patronised and bullied by this process. Well-known local presenters are going, but we are apparently bringing in presenters from other regions, which just seems ridiculous. The BBC points to a 30% fall in income since 2010, but the BBC is a very large organisation. It can save on management costs, for example, including management costs within the £117 million BBC local radio budget.

So what do we want from the BBC? I fully support the motion before us. We want the BBC to halt this calamity now—to open up its finances to independent scrutiny, see what efficiencies can be found to protect services and develop digital, consult local radio staff on their ideas, hold a proper public consultation alongside an impact assessment, and invite axed local radio staff such as Burnsy to return.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I wonder whether the right hon. Lady, the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, shares the surprise that I feel when looking at the BBC’s briefing for this debate. It says that it is creating 130 additional local journalist posts, and that as part of those posts it will create a new network of 70 investigative journalists across England. I can see the value of investigative reporting, but when people such as the excellent staff of BBC Radio Solent have to go on strike over the threat to their jobs, is that the right priority that the BBC should be following?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I very much hear what the right hon. Gentleman says. What I value about local radio is that it holds me to account. It is already investigating what local councils are doing and what local MPs are up to, and I think that is the value that many have talked about today.

Just to conclude, if the BBC thinks again and halts these cuts, we will work together as parliamentarians to protect local radio and to support the BBC. I hope that W1A is listening to this, and that it is not just SW1A listening to this debate. I know that constituents in Hull who live in HU5, HU6 and HU7, and in other postcodes across Humberside, feel at the moment that that they are losing a friend with these cuts to the BBC.

--- Later in debate ---

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I am secretary of the NUJ parliamentary group, and I thank all Members who came to the lobby and briefing with the NUJ a few weeks ago. It was a very successful event. I also thank all those who have offered support and joined us on the picket lines. I welcome the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) to revolutionary syndicalism. It has been interesting to see that conversion.

It is depressing for most of us who are advocates of public sector broadcasting to have to come back to this debate so often. There is genuine anxiety among many staff that we are seeing a whittling away of local radio services so that eventually BBC management will prove the point that it wants to prove: that the services are no longer supported and therefore unnecessary. It will then close them down altogether. That seems to be the strategy: to make the service unsustainable, cut by cut.

As a London MP, I will talk about services in London. Radio London produces 133 hours a week. That is being cut to 85 hours. That represents a cut from 79% to 51% in our local output. Industrial action has meant that we have won some gains in London. We are keeping the London afternoon show from 2 pm to 6 pm, but the rest will be combined with Kent, Surrey and Sussex. To be honest, that is not good enough. As everyone is saying, local radio should be truly local, which means it should be locally produced.

London needs a specific service due to its range of ethnic diversity, its differing levels of affluence and poverty, and the scale of its vulnerable audiences. In all our discussions with the broadcasters, we have made the point that local radio is not just about news; it is about companionship as much as anything. There has been no acknowledgement in our discussions with the BBC of the digital divide, which has been brought out by the data. People are angry that this has been driven through without consultation, as the director general admitted in front of a Select Committee.

We have talked a lot about presenters today, and we all have relationships with our local presenters—good, bad or indifferent—because they rightly hold us to account, but there are many more people behind them. There are producers, production assistants and others, many of whom are on even lower wages that the union has been arguing for some time are unacceptable. Since the announcements, management has told some of these people that they will not know their future until October. A sword of Damocles has been hanging over their head for nearly a year, which has had an impact on people’s wellbeing and mental health, as evidenced when we met staff.

If Members remember the briefing session, they will know that what staff find really insulting is the argument that this is all about a shift to digital. These staff do digital, with no help from the BBC. A lot of the time, these people trained themselves on digital so they could enhance their programmes and provide the BBC with a range of services. Many of the staff found it completely disingenuous and, actually, insulting when Tim Davie, Jason Horton and Rhodri Davies argued as if they were archaeological exhibits who do not provide the digital services of the future.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

The right hon. Gentleman is making such a strong case that the House deserves to hear an extra minute. Does he agree that, in our 26 years in the House, it is hard to think of an occasion when the House has been more united than on this cause? Does he agree that, although the Minister will inevitably point to the independence of the BBC in policy terms, the Minister can nevertheless perform a useful role in taking a message to the BBC that the House feels immensely strongly on this matter?

[John McDonnell]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely valid point, although I do not think I need the extra minute. We all respect the BBC’s independence, but the BBC should reflect the community it serves. What has come out of all these debates is that, on this particular issue, the BBC has belligerently ignored the views of local communities. Members of Parliament are meant to be the voice of our constituents, and we are saying with a strong voice today, and the motion says it all, that the BBC needs to think again, on behalf of our communities, on behalf of our constituents and—I say this as secretary of the NUJ parliamentary group—on behalf of the staff who have served the BBC well over the years.

When we met the staff who came to the lobby, I was moved by how many of them have long service and how many of them have dedicated their life to the BBC. They love the service they provide. I caution the BBC that the strikes will be back if it does not listen, because the staff are not going to sit back and take this. At the same time, it is interesting that there has been overwhelming support within our communities for industrial action. Our communities agree with the staff. Where else can they go? What else can they do to save this service when the BBC is not listening? Let us hope the BBC will listen to this debate.

CPTPP: Conclusion of Negotiations

Julian Lewis Excerpts

Monday 17th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to apologise to our friends from Japan and Vietnam who had to listen to that diatribe, and to the hon. Gentleman calling this a low standards trade deal. It is just embarrassing and, frankly, really poor for diplomacy. This is a high standards deal. I know that it is a high standards deal because we went through agony in order to make sure that we could meet the high thresholds that the countries had set for us.

It is completely untrue to say that this deal lowers food standards. Food standards are not part of a free trade agreement. This is not the EU. We are not joining a political union. Our regulations stay in the UK. Fundamentally, that is something the SNP and other Members do not understand. We make the rules about our food standards. That means that if something does not meet UK food standards, it cannot be bought and sold into this country. What this deal is about is trade, not regulation. If Scotch whisky representatives and other Scottish exporters had to listen to what the hon. Gentleman had to say, I think they would be most incredibly disappointed. He does not understand trade. He is yet another person who has just read a press release from campaign groups and has not tested the arguments. I am very happy to stand at the Dispatch Box and rebut all that rubbish.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

May I ask the Secretary of State to underline a point that I think she briefly made just now, which is that a welcome difference between the late—and not very much lamented—EU and the CPTPP is that the latter has no ambitions to create a politically unified superstate?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I wholeheartedly endorse my right hon. Friend’s comments. He is correct: this is purely a trade deal. I did not have the opportunity to say so in answer to the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) earlier, but to call this a “low standards agreement” is to forget its genesis. This deal was signed by the US, when it was called the trans-Pacific partnership, in 2016. The person who did not want it was President Donald Trump, so it is interesting to find that the hon. Gentleman and President Trump both disagree with the benefits of this deal—he is in interesting company. This deal is about the future of global trade and, as my right hon. Friend has just said, it is exactly the sort of deal we should be doing, rather than more political integration with other countries.