Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

Julian Huppert Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

The hon. Gentleman asked two questions. First, he asked whether I was surprised that the power did not already exist. To some extent, yes I am. Obviously, the IPCC was set up under the Police Reform Act 2002 and given powers then. Perhaps this is the first time that so much focus has been on it—indeed, it has caused the House to agree to emergency legislation to give the IPCC that particular power.

Secondly, I know that sanctions are of particular concern. As has been said, we will debate the matter in detail on an amendment to the relevant clause in Committee later. However, I preview my thoughts on that by pointing out that clear sanctions will be available to chief constables and forces to apply to those who refuse to obey what will be an IPCC instruction, and later a requirement. They will be very powerful.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

The Minister may recall that I wrote to him about retired officers, and I thank him for his response. Will he be clear about whether such former officers would be required to attend any sort of interview? My understanding of the Home Affairs Committee report is that the Bill does not provide for that, and that could hinder the investigation. Will he make it clear whether there is a way of ensuring that people are available to be interviewed?

[Damian Green]

The case is different for retired officers because they are essentially members of the public. The police cannot compel a member of the public to attend an interview as a witness. If the police feel that it is necessary to interview someone, they have to arrest them if they are unwilling to help voluntarily. It would be strange to give the IPCC powers that the police do not have. Having said that, my expectation is that—inevitably, in this case—there will be many retired officers, simply because of the length of time since Hillsborough, and that they may have useful evidence to give as witnesses. I hope and expect that many will wish to help.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

That is a question for the IPCC investigation; it is not for Ministers to act as judges or investigators. I know it is an important point, but it is better addressed to the IPCC.

[Dr Huppert]

The Minister says he is open to plugging gaps. He knows I have pressed him before about people occupying quasi-police roles. He wrote to me to say he is actively considering the issue. Will he indicate where that consideration has reached?

[Damian Green]

Short of reading again what I have just said, that is what we are doing. The Select Committee, of which he is a distinguished member, is conducting an investigation. It has not published its final report, but when it does so the Government will look at it and all the matters it raises seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

It will not be news to anybody in this House how serious the Hillsborough disaster was. It is still the worst tragedy in British sporting history. The shocking revelations of deception, blame and injustice have resonated with football fans and many others around the world. The 96 people paid an awful price and we are still learning from it today. I hope that Parliament will at last ensure that we learn the harsh lessons of the last 23 years through this vital legislation.

I will not go through the details of what happened because they have been eloquently expressed by many right hon. and hon. Members who have much closer links to these events, and the unacceptable acts of manipulation and self-interest by the police forces involved in the disaster have been covered extensively in the media. It is clear from the Hillsborough independent panel report that the extent of the loss of life can be attributed to multiple failures in the emergency services and other public bodies that were charged with the safety of the public on that occasion.

We have to accept the reality that South Yorkshire and West Midlands police, as well as other emergency services, made “strenuous attempts” to deflect the blame for the crush on to the victims. The report stated clearly that 116 of 164 police statements were

“amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to”

South Yorkshire police. I know that the whole House would agree that that is clearly unacceptable.

For the victims of the catastrophe who have seen decades pass without justice, it is essential that we act to ensure that the systems put in place to protect the public can no longer place themselves above that duty. It is therefore critical that we reform the IPCC. There are two issues. First, the changes proposed in this Bill, which I support, will, we hope, help the Hillsborough investigation, although I have a couple of concerns that I will raise in a moment.

Secondly, there is a need for broader reform of the IPCC. There is much concern among the public that it does not always act sufficiently independently, that it does not take up enough cases and that it is not able to investigate cases as well as it needs to. I am pleased that the Minister has made it clear that he will consider carefully the work that the Home Affairs Committee is doing to look more broadly at the IPCC. There are a number of points that I hope he will look at. I have already raised the issue of those who operate in quasi-policing roles. The former chair of the IPCC, Nick Hardwick, has said that

“if it looks like a police officer, talks like a police officer, walks like a police officer, the IPCC should investigate it.”

The Minister has said that he will have an open mind in looking at those issues. I hope that he will take action on quasi-policing roles.

The Liberal Democrats support the Bill entirely. We are delighted that it also has the support of organisations such as Liberty, which rightly states that there should be due process for police officers. However, there are a number of issues that are not quite clear and I would be grateful if the Minister could reiterate his position on them. The first is what will happen to police officers who are required to attend an interview but who refuse to answer questions at it. Everybody has the right not to answer questions and not to self-incriminate, but there is a question about whether there is a duty on somebody who is still an employee to answer questions. The Home Affairs Committee report, which we concluded yesterday in time for this debate, states at recommendation 10:

“We note that refusal to attend an interview may result in misconduct or gross misconduct proceedings, but that there is no sanction for refusal to answer questions. We expect that chief constables will indicate to their forces that such uncooperative behaviour would be considered to be at odds with the spirit of professional duty.”

I hope that the Minister will confirm that that is his interpretation, too, and that he will encourage chief constables to make that clear more broadly.

There is still the issue, which I raised with the Minister earlier, of former police officers. He pointed out, and others confirmed it, that they would have a moral obligation to co-operate. That is definitely right—we would like former police officers to take part—but I am not clear what would happen if the unfortunate occurred, and some police officers did not agree to co-operate and that caused a fundamental problem with the investigation. I hope that the Minister will consider what happens if that becomes a problem.

[Damian Green]

In the middle of that section of his speech, the hon. Gentleman moved from retired police officers to police officers. Did he mean retired police officers?

[Dr Huppert]

I am sorry; I meant former police officers who do not have to attend an interview and decide not to do so, and that becomes a problem. I hope that the Minister will consider, obviously with much reluctance, whether we need to do anything else to ensure justice. I thank him for correcting me if I misspoke.

I hope that the Bill will be passed quickly, and I look forward to hearing other hon. Members’ comments today.