Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Judith Cummins and Rebecca Smith

Consideration of Lords amendments
Wednesday 5th November 2025 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

I begin by echoing the thanks expressed to Members in all parts of the House and in the other place who have contributed to the Bill. In particular, I pay tribute to the excellent work of Baroness Finn, Viscount Younger and Lord Vaux, whose detailed and constructive engagement made the Bill stronger, more balanced and more effective.

This Bill is about protecting taxpayers’ money, ensuring fairness for those who play by the rules, and giving our public bodies the powers that they need to tackle fraud and error wherever they occur. Every pound lost to fraud is a pound taken from taxpayers, public services and the people who rely on them. Tackling fraud and error and sending a clear message to fraudsters that they will not succeed is vital, and this Bill took an important step towards doing that, but there was more to be done, and our colleagues in the other place have done a brilliant job of scrutinising the legislation. I acknowledge that the Government have been incredibly constructive in their approach. Thanks to the determination of Conservative and Cross-Bench peers, a number of important concessions have been made, improving the Bill.

I will touch on several of the Lords amendments. Lords amendment 1 concerns the power of the Public Sector Fraud Authority to conduct proactive investigations. When the Bill was introduced, the PSFA could act only when invited in by another authority. That risked preventing it from acting, even when there was credible intelligence that fraud was taking place. Our Conservative colleagues in the Lords rightly identified that gap, and brought forward an amendment that would empower the PSFA to act proactively where there were reasonable grounds to suspect fraud, without waiting for a formal request. That ability to act swiftly and decisively is essential if we are to stop fraud before more money is lost. The Government’s amendment in lieu reflects the principles in Lords amendment 1, ensuring that the PSFA’s new powers operate in a clear and accountable framework. This is an important issue, so we welcome that concession, which strengthens the PSFA’s ability to intervene early and protect taxpayers’ money.

Lords amendments 30 and 31 relate to oversight and accountability, and would ensure that with new powers came clear lines of ministerial responsibility. Conservative peers raised legitimate questions about how serious investigative powers in the Bill would be authorised, particularly those based on the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. The principle is simple: when Government officials are to exercise significant powers, Ministers must remain accountable to Parliament for how those powers are used. Following discussions, the Government have tabled amendments in lieu of Lords amendments 30 and 31, which we have accepted as a compromise, on the basis that the initial guidance is subject to a “take note” debate in Grand Committee. That would allow Parliament to consider and scrutinise the guidance in full. I would be grateful if the Minister could, in his closing remarks, confirm that this remains the Government’s position. I apologise if he said so already and I did not quite catch it.

Let me turn to Lords amendment 84. Modern fraud prevention increasingly relies on technology, including artificial intelligence and data-driven eligibility checks. Used well, those tools can help to identify patterns and protect public funds, but they must be used responsibly and transparently. Lord Vaux, Viscount Younger and Baroness Finn raised fair concerns; they said that the use of AI or automated eligibility indicators should never amount to reasonable grounds for suspicion on their own. Technology might inform decisions, but it must not replace human judgment, so it is welcome that the Government have listened. Their amendment in lieu makes it explicit that before any intrusive action is taken, such as amending a benefit or launching an investigation, the information must be reviewed by a suitably qualified human officer. We believe that ensures that we get the best of both worlds; we harness innovation to protect the taxpayer, while retaining human judgment to safeguard individuals.

Lords amendment 43 concerns the eligibility verification mechanism and its impact on vulnerable people and financial institutions. The amendment would task the independent reviewer of the mechanism with assessing how the system takes into account the additional needs of vulnerable people, whether it risks benefits claimants being prematurely de-banked, and the cost to banks and financial institutions of complying. Throughout the passage of this Bill, Members—including Conservative Members—have emphasised the need to protect those who may be more vulnerable, including people facing financial hardship and those with disabilities.

We are disappointed that the Government are not backing Lords amendment 43, but it is reassuring that they have committed to ensuring that all the points made in both Houses are fed directly into the work of the independent reviewer. We understand that a meeting will be set up between Members and the independent reviewer after Royal Assent so that these issues can be explored in detail. We will continue to push to ensure that Ministers deliver on those promises, but we hope that this engagement will ensure that the review proceeds with a full understanding of Parliament’s concerns about proportionality, cost and fairness.

As the Minister rightly said, Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment 75 is essentially a technical correction. We have no issue with it, because it tidies up the text but does not alter the substance of the Bill.

Finally, I turn to Lords amendment 97, which concerns the issue of reasonable force by Department for Work and Pensions investigators. We do not believe that it was the Government’s intention that DWP investigators should use force against individuals—that power rightly rests with the police, who are trained in its use and accountable for it. However, that was not clear in the legislation as originally drafted. The explanatory note stated that

“This power will be limited to using reasonable force against things not people”,

but that was not specified in the Bill. After we raised this issue in Committee in the Commons, Lords amendment 97 sought to clarify that DWP officers may use reasonable force only against property, not against people. The Government’s amendments in lieu are a compromise, but the Bill does now distinguish between the use of force against people, and the use of force against property for investigators who are not constables, which was the clarification we were looking for.

In summary, thanks to the thorough work of colleagues in both Houses, the Bill today is better than when it was first introduced. It gives the Public Sector Fraud Authority the power to act proactively, embeds ministerial accountability, ensures the responsible use of technology, protects vulnerable people, and provides clarity on how enforcement powers may be used. There remain areas in which we think the Bill could be further strengthened—there is still nothing in it to tackle sickfluencers, nor were amendments requiring the Government to review the whistleblowing procedures in the civil service accepted. It is regrettable that the Minister missed those opportunities, but it is welcome that the Government were at least willing to listen in other areas, and we had some very good debates on the bits that the Government have not accepted.

Although we will not oppose the amendments that the Government have tabled in response to the Lords’ amendments, this Bill must not be the limit of their ambition. It is the latest step in cracking down on fraud and error, but we need to see continued effort, action and enforcement from this Government, because the message must be clear that fraudsters must not, and will not, succeed. Every pound stolen through fraud is a pound lost to the taxpayer, our public services and those who do the right thing. That is why we will keep pressing for vigilance, transparency and fairness as this Bill becomes law.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Judith Cummins and Rebecca Smith

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 3rd September 2024 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Judith Cummins)]

I call Rebecca Smith to make her maiden speech.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie). I was especially interested in his recollections of the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989, which is also one of my early political memories, although I am obviously on the other side of the House as a result. I was interested in his reference to Monte Cassino, which might make sense later on in my speech.

I am incredibly grateful to the people of South West Devon, who put their trust in me on 4 July, electing me to serve them here in Parliament. Starting out in this place just a few short weeks ago, it was almost a quarter of a century to the day since I first set foot in Parliament. Forgive the cliché, but if someone had told the 18-year-old me, who was spending a week’s work experience with the MP for South West Devon, Sir Gary Streeter, that one day I would follow in his actual footsteps, I would not have believed them. Everybody I have met since entering this place who knew my predecessor tells me that I have big shoes to fill. For some, that might seem daunting. After all, he is a size 10 and I am a mere size 4. However, knowing Sir Gary as I do—in fact, having known him since we first met at a Kylie Minogue concert in 1991, where we both enjoyed her rendition of “The Loco-Motion”—I am honoured to follow in his footsteps and the legacy he has left.

After 32 years as a Member of Parliament, Sir Gary’s legacy is one of kindness, integrity and a deep commitment to the people of South West Devon. I know that there are Members on both sides of the House, past and present, who appreciated his wisdom over the years. It is something that he will tell you comes from his deep Christian faith. I am grateful that I still have access to that wisdom, given that he is now one of my constituents and that I also share his faith.

Unsurprisingly, although Sir Gary achieved a huge amount for our constituents, there are issues affecting South West Devon today; long-term battles that he fought and that remain in need of a victory. One such issue relates to our Great Western Railway line through Devon. Today’s debate therefore provides the perfect opportunity to commit myself to the fight for a better railway service to the far reaches of Devon and the south-west.

Following the devastating floods at Dawlish in 2014, the previous Government did much to safeguard the line through Devon. The sight of a railway track suspended in mid-air with nothing between it and the sea is not easily forgotten. I will therefore be campaigning cross-party alongside colleagues to see the new Government commit to completing the remedial works at Dawlish. They must also ensure that forthcoming HS2 works at Old Oak Common in London do not hamper the progress made on our journey times between London and the south-west. The main line through Devon does not just take holidaymakers to our beautiful counties; it is vital for those who live and work there too.

The west side of Plymouth is served effectively by several small stations, but to the east, in my constituency, there are very few options for train travel between Plymouth and Totnes, some 30 minutes away. Indeed, the current level of service makes a mockery of the existing “Park and ride by train” that is advertised as people drive down the A38. I will therefore continue to fight for CrossCountry trains—not just Great Western Railway services—to call at Ivybridge station. As the population of that town and of nearby Sherford grows, having adequate access to mainline train services closer than Plymouth, Totnes—or, in some cases, Tiverton Parkway—is essential.

To see the full economic benefits of the Plymouth and south Devon freeport, with its key sites at Langage and Sherford, we must see the delivery of a metro railway linking Plymouth with Tavistock and Ivybridge, including a stop in Plympton. That would also enhance connectivity for the Dartmoor villages, which are now a welcome part of South West Devon following the recent parliamentary boundary changes. The previous Government’s plan to reopen the line between Plymouth and Tavistock is critical to delivering that metro service. I therefore call on the new Government to push forward with that proposal and enable us to get the metro scheme off the ground.