Defence

Judith Cummins Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Francois]

I certainly hope there is. I very much hope that MOD Ministers are fighting tenaciously in private, even if they cannot say so in public, to have this mad order scrapped, and to defend the Northern Ireland veterans, just as the Northern Ireland veterans defended all of us. The Minister understands exactly what I mean by that, and I think that he and some of his ministerial colleagues may have been working on this. If they have, then we in good faith wish them Godspeed.

I have one more question on this matter, and then I will move on. If it is the Government’s intention to still go ahead with the remedial order—again, the House would really welcome clarity on this—despite the fact that it would have disastrous consequences for recruitment and retention, which the Minister mentioned a few minutes ago, can he confirm exactly what the Government’s policy is? Is it to go down the remedial order route, or down the route of introducing new primary legislation, and if it is the latter, what are the timings for that new Bill?

Fourthly and finally, the Minister for the Armed Forces has signed a formal statement to the effect that, in his view, the provisions of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (Continuation) Order 2025 are compatible with the European convention on human rights. However, there is a question: were British troops to be deployed to Ukraine as part of some coalition of the willing—perhaps following a ceasefire in Ukraine—what would happen to those British troops if they were to be involved in combat with Russian forces, or Russian acolytes? What guarantee could the Ministry give that if soldiers fired their weapons in anger, they would not subsequently be subject to lawfare under the Human Rights Act 1998, even decades after the event, as is the case in Northern Ireland? This is not an idle point. I understand that the issue of lawfare and its effect on recruitment and retention in the British Army has been raised at the most senior levels in the Army, including in recent meetings with the Chief of the General Staff. This is very much a live issue that deserves to be raised in Parliament, not least for the soldiers who might have to take these actions for real.

Given all this, would it not be helpful—as suggested a number of times by my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), the shadow Defence Secretary—for the Minister to issue a formal declaration that we would derogate from the European convention on human rights in relation to any British military operations related to Ukraine, so that soldiers who served in that conflict would be excluded from any lawfare prosecutions, even decades later? The Minister will know that the issue is materially affecting morale in the armed forces, and especially in the special forces community, so any reassurance he can give regarding a derogation would no doubt be gratefully received.

To summarise, we obviously support this order to continue the operation of the Armed Forces Act 2006 until December 2026. It would be helpful to have some idea of timings, and even of the content of the prospective Armed Forces Act 2026, as it is likely to be, to allow interested parties to plan. To maintain morale and discipline in our armed forces, perhaps the Minister could also confirm whether the Government would countenance derogation from the ECHR during future military operations, potentially including those in defence of Ukraine. Moreover, perhaps he could update the House on where we are on the Government’s proposed new legislation on legacy matters, and on the fate of the proposed remedial order under the Human Rights Act 1998. Are the Government contemplating removing clauses from that remedial order, or are they abandoning it altogether, and instead relying on new primary legislation to achieve their aim?

The Father of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), gave us all very wise advice: we should increase defence spending. We certainly should, in this increasingly dangerous world; we can argue about by how much and how quickly. We Conservative Members want to work constructively with the Government and the Ministry of Defence, for the defence of the realm—but do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I can now announce the result of today’s deferred Divisions. On the draft Enterprise Act 2002 (Mergers Involving Newspaper Enterprises and Foreign Powers) Regulations 2025, the Ayes were 338 and the Noes were 79, so the Ayes have it.

On the draft Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Suitability for Fixed Term Recall) Order 2025, the Ayes were 333 and the Noes were 168, so the Ayes have it.

[The Division lists are published at the end of today’s debates.]

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the Minister for his statement. I appreciate him bringing the debate to the Floor of the House. It shows the importance of the issue and the importance that the Government place on our armed forces and, in particular, our armed forces personnel. I welcome the pay rise that this Government are giving our service personnel and the commitment that the Minister has made personally to tackle recruitment and retention issues, as well as, of course, the £5 billion increase in spending.

As I was unable to intervene on the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), I must say that I am disappointed that this has turned into a party political debate, but I assure everyone in the House—after saying that—that I do not intend to say any more on that matter.

This order reflects a constitutional requirement, but it also gives us an annual opportunity to thank our brave servicemen and women. As I have mentioned previously in this House, I am the son and, like most people my age, the grandson of veterans, so I recognise the sacrifice that our armed forces families make for this country.

If the continuation order is not agreed, commanding officers and courts martial will no longer have the power to punish or discipline service people, so it is obviously really important that we pass it today. We should recognise that, for the vast majority of our servicemen and women, the part of the Act covered by the order is irrelevant. However, we must support our servicemen and women as they support us, which is why I welcome the work of Ministers and veterans on Op VALOUR.

As Lord Coaker said in the other place:

“we inhabit a world that is more dangerous than at any time since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 October 2024; Vol. 840, c. GC84.]

That is something that everybody in this House can reflect on.

Like many Members from all parties, I attend the turning of the page ceremony organised by the Speaker’s Office and the Serjeant At Arms. Every week, I hear the names of Members of this House and children of Members of this House who lost their lives in the second world war, and I find it incredibly moving. This morning, it was particularly moving when one name was read out: it was the name of a son of a Member of the House who passed away at the age of eight.

Of course, our service personnel and our country cannot work in isolation, and it is incredibly important to recognise the work that our armed forces do in collaboration with our NATO allies.

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all hon. and gallant Members of this House—I know that one of them, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty), is about to speak, and I am glad that he has returned to his place—for what they have done in their past careers to keep us all safe. I also pay tribute to the servicemen and women of my constituency of Harlow and the UK as a whole for their continuous service, keeping us and our families safe during these increasingly troubled times.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.