Flooding

Jonathan Evans Excerpts

Monday 6th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for expressing her sympathies, quite rightly, about those who have lost their lives, because that has been really shocking. All I can do is repeat what I said earlier—that in the course of this spending round, this Government will spend more than any other Governments have spent on flood defences. We have an ambitious programme to spend £2.3 billion on capital alone up to 2021 meaning that 165,000 properties will be protected up to 2015, which is 20,000 more than we originally planned, and that a further 300,000 properties will be protected up to 2021.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

Although my right hon. Friend has made it clear that he does not feel it is appropriate to deal with questions about Flood Re until later in the day, his statement made so many references to insurance that it is important for the Secretary of State and the Government to reflect on areas in which Flood Re does not offer insurance protection, such as properties in two council tax bands in Wales and, for instance, the small guest houses on the front of the marina in Aberystwyth that have been affected by appalling waves today.

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. I am perfectly happy to talk about Flood Re; I just thought that as there will be a debate later, and time is short now, it might be more appropriate to ask questions about it then.

My hon. Friend raises the issue of guest houses. We have made it clear that council tax payment is the criterion on which to decide whether one is in or out of Flood Re. I am not totally up to speed on the exact details of the guest houses he mentioned, but he may find that many of them pay council tax.

Water Bill

Jonathan Evans Excerpts

Monday 6th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a telling point that I shall refer to later: there is no centre ground on this matter. Either the Assembly controls Welsh resources or the Government here in London do so. It is a question of whether the Welsh people have self-determination on this matter or whether there is a veto from London. I know which option he favours—it is the same one I favour.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to the Capel Celyn situation—I remember it from many years ago when I first entered politics—and rightly said that across the political spectrum there was universal opposition in Wales to the drowning of valleys. Today, however, he should help the House. What is the mood in Wales today? He obviously feels that this is yet another step in devolution, but there is no great appetite for it elsewhere in Wales.

[Hywel Williams]

That is an interesting point. At every turn, when further devolution is proposed, right hon. and hon. Members of all parties always say that there is no appetite for it, and they point to polls allegedly showing no appetite for further change, but subsequent polls always show that the Welsh people support further devolution. They support devolution that goes further than the Government’s proposals. They supported further devolution before and after the Government of Wales Act. The hon. Gentleman has his own opinion and I have mine, but I think I have my ear closer to the ground of Welsh people’s opinion.

Water Bill

Jonathan Evans Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I want to speak specifically to clause 47, which is 11 lines long and introduces the new flood insurance schemes. This is the first opportunity we have had to discuss them on the Floor of the House. As the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee has said, the Flood Re scheme still raises many questions that need to be answered. I also share her concerns about a lot of it being left to secondary legislation.

The Flood Re scheme follows on from the statement of principles, which was first agreed in 2000, was renewed in 2008 and ran until this summer. Flood insurance has been of particular interest to me since the very bad floods in Hull in 2007. Since then, I have questioned and lobbied Ministers and secured Adjournment debates on the issue, because I am concerned about my constituents and want whatever scheme that is put in place to meet their needs.

In 2012, the then Secretary of State told me on the Floor of the House that she was

“proud that we have found a way forward with the insurance industry that, above all, guarantees that universal and affordable insurance remains available to all”.—[Official Report, 25 June 2012; Vol. 547, c. 30.]

She said that that included my constituents, but all we have 18 months on is this very short clause outlining the Flood Re scheme. I want to set out why I am so concerned about this.

Ninety per cent. of my home city of Hull is low-lying—below sea level—and prone to floods from the River Hull and the Humber estuary. In 2007 we had a deluge of surface water. June of that year was the wettest month recorded in Yorkshire since 1882. The rain that came down on that day was a once-in-250-years event. One in five properties in Hull were flooded, including 7,208 residential properties and 1,300 businesses.

Flooding causes misery. Any MP who has constituents who have been flooded or who has been flooded themselves will know that it is a miserable experience. Homes are disrupted for weeks and months and dehumidifiers and dryers are needed. Having had secondary flooding in my home in Hull, I know that it is horrible. We want to do everything we can to protect people so that they do not have to go through that.

Part of the deal under the statement of principles was that if someone who did not have insurance in 2007 got flooded, they would never get insurance. People also had to stick with the provider they had in 2007. I had to stick with Aviva—I could not move anywhere else—and my premiums and excesses went up just like those of my constituents have since 2007.

The Government have promised a new scheme and, as I have said, the former Secretary of State made out that it would be affordable and available to all. I have three problems with what is being proposed, as I understand it, although it has not yet been suggested as part of primary legislation. First, I have a big problem with the 2009 cut-off. Secondly, I have a problem with the fact that small businesses are not included in the Flood Re scheme. My third problem is that reviews will take place every five years and that, as I understand it, the scheme is transitional and is planned to move to a full open market approach by the end of 25 years.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

On the hon. Lady’s first two points, she might like to know that the all-party group on insurance and financial services made exactly those points to the Government as part of the consultation.

[Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I think there is widespread concern about those two points in particular.

When I asked the House of Commons Library to give me figures for homes built since 2009, I was told that 444,300 private dwellings had been built between 2009 and 2012, and that 1,850 permanent dwellings had been built in Hull between 2009 and the second quarter of 2013, of which 1,720 were private homes. Therefore, more than 1,700 properties will not be part of the Flood Re scheme, despite the fact that the city is prone to flooding and that, with 90% of it below sea level, people may have real problems.

As I understand it, the Government are telling people who bought their homes after 2009 that their properties should have been properly assessed for flood risk under PPS25—planning policy statement 25—and the national planning policy framework, and that they can therefore get insurance on the open market. However, the National Flood Forum has pointed out that an unknown number of people will be at significant flood risk, but unable to get insurance under Flood Re or on the free market.

I accept that the Government’s approach appears sensible, but they have to acknowledge, first, that lots of properties built since 2009 have flooded in various parts of the country and, secondly, that they have caused other properties to flood, particularly from surface water problems. The extent of the problem is not clear, but many communities will raise that issue with the Minister over the coming months, as will hon. Members in Committee.

At Kingswood in my constituency, houses have been built over many years: it is a major area of house building as part of a development for the city. Outline planning permission was first given in 1994 and was renewed in 2004. Like areas all over the UK that were given planning permission before 2009, some properties built since 2009 will not be covered by the Flood Re scheme. A key issue about phased developments is whether standards from an earlier period are applied to houses built post-2009, and I want the Minister to address what will happen to such properties.

When the statement of principles was first set out, the cut-off date for houses not to be covered—2008—was in the future, but the Bill actually has a retrospective date of 2009. Why do the Government not accept that it would be better to give everyone proper warning and make the cut-off date 2015, for example, so that we all know what will happen?

I have concerns about the surface water maps that are available. I understand that local authorities will publish their maps next week, but insurance companies have their own ones. I also have concerns about the fact that the Environment Agency will not produce its compound risk maps until the end of 2015. That will leave house purchasers, community activists and insurance companies, now and in future, with different sorts of information available to them. How can they make good and sensible choices on that basis?

I am really concerned that when I asked the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government in the House this afternoon about what discussions he has had with his colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, he did not seem to know that there was a problem. Yet his Department is at the moment promoting the Help to Buy scheme extremely heavily in Kingswood to get people to buy new homes in an area that another Department says will be completely excluded from the Flood Re scheme. There is a mis-selling issue there, with people not being fully aware of what this Government are doing. Will the Minister address that point about whether other Ministers know what this scheme means for their Departments?

Last Wednesday, it was announced that Hull would be the city of culture for 2017, but on Thursday in DEFRA questions the Minister told me that the cut-off date of 2009 stood and would send “a very clear message” against building on areas that were likely to flood. The problem is that 90% of Hull is below sea level, so it is prone to flooding. The Government cannot have it both ways. They must accept that issues in different geographical areas of this country have to be addressed.

I want to make three more points. The first is about the role of the Environment Agency. I understand that of 455,500 applications for planning permission, the Environment Agency has commented on only 6.6%. The vast majority do not require it to comment because they are too small or do not meet the requirements set out in legislation. If we want the Environment Agency to play more of a role, we must make it clear that its advice on where houses are built must be taken. I say to the Minister that it is wholly unfair and arbitrary to choose 2009 as the cut-off date for Flood Re; 2015 would be much better. If he is not willing to go that far, perhaps he should consider mitigation for Hull and similar areas.

My second point is that the Government should look at what is happening to small businesses. The Federation of Small Businesses has said that one in five small firms was affected by flooding last year alone. Small firms will end up paying exorbitantly high costs to be insured against the threat of flooding. I hope that amendments will be tabled on that point.

My final point is about the 25-year transitional element of the Flood Re scheme. Will the Minister set out what the five-year reviews are about, because we need more details? Will he address what will happen to areas such as Hull in the longer term? If the free market is just opened up, we will be left with no insurance companies that want to offer insurance in those areas, because the risks are too high. I hope that he will give us more information about the Flood Re scheme.

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

What a surprise to be called so early in the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am delighted to have the chance to speak.

As I was preparing in the Tea Room, my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) said, “I suspect you’ll go into the debate and just shout a lot.” He was very accurate in his analysis: I am going to shout a lot. There is nothing like a good shout to get things off your chest. I will try not to shout too loudly, but I want to shout about water because it is very important to me.

I congratulate the new Minister on his elevation to the Front Bench. I also lament the passing of my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon). He was a wonderful Minister, and it is a great shame that he is not still one, because he will be much missed and knew a great deal about water.

I want to pay one final tribute during my 10 minutes. It is to the former Member of Parliament for Reading West, Mr Martin Salter, who has been a great champion of fishing and of the conservation of rivers for many years. I am sure that wherever he is today, he is watching this debate fondly.

I listened to the Secretary of State, and I am afraid that my heart did not leap with joy. I fear that, in reality, we will not build the reservoirs that we need. In 10 or 15 years, we will be in this place once again talking about the continued decimation of our waterways and, in particular, but not exclusively, of our chalk streams. A few years ago, Thames Water had the great idea of building a reservoir in Oxfordshire near Abingdon. It was a spade-ready project in 2010, with everything ready to go, but it has not yet taken off because of planning issues and people who are not too keen on its construction.

I must be a really rubbish politician because when it comes to water, I have only one speech, which most hon. Members will have heard at least three times in this place.

Since 1973-74, we have not built a reservoir of any note in east and south-east England. We have added to the population by quite a few millions and we have built many hundreds of thousands if not millions of new homes, but we have somehow decided that we do not need reservoirs. I have looked at the Bill, and I do not see any concrete plans for new reservoirs. I have talked to many water companies and, apart from Thames Water, they seem to have a marked reluctance to build new reservoirs, but without them, we are going to continue to abstract.

I am afraid that the trading of abstraction licences leaves me cold. Initially, licences were not awarded on any scientific basis; water companies were told: “Here are a few thousand. Now go off and enjoy yourselves.” The truth is that if all the abstraction licences on the River Lea were used, it would not exist. That is not a far-fetched scenario because there are quite a few rivers in my constituency and elsewhere in Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire that do not exist any more. They have been sucked dry and are now empty river beds. When it rains in the winter, clean water might flow through them, but it does not flow for long.

The Environment Agency has a new trick. That is to reclassify a river that dries up for the first time in 30 or 40 years as a winterbourne. I understand that one of those winterbournes might be the Upper Kennet around Manton and Marlborough. I know that the Upper Kennet is not a winterbourne because over my lifetime, I have caught well over 400 trout and 400 grayling in that stream. I understand that there is a move in the EA to reclassify it as a winterbourne. That is total and utter nonsense.

Let me return to abstraction licences. I fear that if there is unrestricted trading in abstraction licences, we will see more and more water sucked out of already stressed environments. That thought gives me sleepless nights because, as I have said, one could walk across many streams in Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire in one’s bedroom slippers and not get wet. I think of rivers such as the Mimram, the Chess, the Beane and many others that are too numerous to name in this debate. Some of those rivers flow some of the time, some of them flow none of the time and some of them flow all of the time, but the one thing that they have in common is that they are under great stress.

It would be easy to lash the water companies, as I am sort of lashing those on the Government Front Bench. It is a very gentle lashing—indeed, it is almost a licking. I have taken the trouble to meet my water company. I met the chief executive of Affinity Water, who seems to be a switched-on individual. I have invited him to go fishing on the River Chess, so that we are on someone else’s water. He has accepted that invitation and we hope to go in May. Hopefully we will have a wet winter, so that beautiful river will have something near a proper flow, and he will walk down the river and see what a wonderful environment it is. However, such environments are becoming all too rare.

As I say, Mr Deputy Speaker—what a magical change in the Chair—there are parts of the Bill that I am sure I will welcome when I have found them. I have yet to find them, but I will welcome them when I do. What has distressed me most about aspects of this debate is that there has been a lack of willingness to focus on the fact that water, because of the way in which we manage it, is a rare resource in this country. Quite a lot of it falls out of the sky but, as the Secretary of State said, we wave 95% of it goodbye in the winter months, as it rushes down into the North sea and the English channel. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury said, we have to get much better at capturing and storing that water.

Although I am hugely attracted to the idea of farmers building small reservoirs, it simply is not the answer. The idea that a farmer will build a reservoir of sufficient capacity to sell water to major water companies is, I am afraid, as near to nonsense as one can get without it becoming nonsense. What we need to do—again, it is the broken record—is to build some reservoirs. There needs to be a consensus about building reservoirs.

Of course, there are parts of the country where water is abundant. People say airily, “Let’s transport it from the north of England to the south of England or from Wales to other parts of the country.” I am sure that the Welsh do not like the idea of having their water pinched any more than the people of Northumberland do.

[Jonathan Evans]

They could sell it.

[Mr Walker]

They could sell the water, but the truth is that it is extremely expensive to cart water around the country. I do not know whether anybody has noticed, but water tends to weigh quite a lot. Yes, gravity can be used, but there needs to be gravity for that to work. We could ship water around the United Kingdom, but that is not the answer. It is talked about by people who want to deflect attention from the real issue, which—again, I am afraid—is building reservoirs.

Before I get too boring, I would like to say that I look forward to hearing from the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). That is a big mouthful, but I got my mouth around it—sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker, but there are a lot of mouth analogies. I would like to hear the view of the Opposition on conservation. Of course it is important that we try to keep people’s water bills as low as is possible. However, the Walker household, which is metered, gets a fairly good deal. We can have loads of baths, use the facilities and have showers every day and it costs us about £2 to have pharmaceutical-grade water pumped into our house. Of course price is important, but so is conservation because we live in a lovely country and we need to keep it beautiful.

I am about to overrun my allotted time, so I will conclude by saying one more thing. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury said that he led a delegation of water companies to Brazil. Having drained my rivers, they are going to drain the Amazon. I hope that they are not as successful with the Amazon. However, the point that was made by my hon. Friend and that will be made again by my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley, who is a courageous campaigner on all matters water, is that this country has 85% of the world’s chalk streams. Funnily enough, they are not making them any more. If there is another ice age, we might get a few more, but they are not making any more right now.

We have been disastrous at protecting our natural environment. Indeed, a press release from the Salmon and Trout Association just flashed before my eyes, saying that we are not even going to reach the target of getting 32% of our rivers up to an acceptable level and that it is going to be pushed further into the future. That is ridiculous nonsense. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury said, we should want to reach that target ourselves as a sovereign nation and should not need the European Union to require it of us. This country is so good at lecturing parts of the developing world about their environmental responsibilities—particularly Brazil and Indonesia about the rain forests. They should take no lessons from us. Until we manage our own environment more effectively, there is very little that we can teach Brazil.

With that final flourish, Mr Deputy Speaker, I shall sit down. I have been very naughty and taken 12 minutes. I see the Whip looking at me aggressively, so I am sitting down.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and to my chairmanship of the all-party group on insurance and financial services.

My remarks will be limited entirely to that part of the Bill that deals with flood insurance. Since 2010, the all-party group has met on four occasions to consider the issue in great detail. It has met the British Insurance Brokers Association and the Association of British Insurers, and has frequently met the National Flood Forum. The group had the pleasure of meeting my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon)—I am not sure it was a pleasure for him—who kept us up to date with the progress of his deliberations. I join other Members in thanking him for his contribution.

My remarks will focus entirely on the all-party group’s opinion of the Government’s proposals and the representations it made as part of the consultation. The concept of Flood Re is generally supported by the group, but its members have a number of concerns. Many of those were raised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson). She reminded us of the dreadful experience in Hull and highlighted some of the issues we need to examine in the context of the Flood Re proposal.

There is concern regarding small businesses. The Bill proposes to cover residential property, but under the statement of principles some small businesses were covered too. It is easy to see in Hull many corner shops and things of that nature where it is difficult to distinguish between the residential and business elements. The Federation of Small Businesses, the British Insurance Brokers Association and the British Property Federation have urged the Government to reconsider their exclusion of small businesses under the scheme. We do not want major businesses covered, but perhaps a turnover of £1 million would be an appropriate cut-off point when covering smaller businesses. The cost would not be prohibitive.

On another contentious area, the Government say, “Come what may, we must have the flood insurance obligation.” That is clearly desirable, but it cannot be a blank cheque. Under the one-in-200-years principle, insurance is supposed to cover all circumstances likely to arise, but it is difficult to assess what a one-in-200-years risk might be, given, for example, that the six wettest years on record have all been since 2000. As we have heard, climate change is happening and it is difficult to make those assessments. Just this year, there have been major floods in Alberta, Canada that might count as a one-in-200-years event: total estimated damage was more than 5 billion Canadian dollars, 100,000 people were displaced, several people died and 2,200 troops were deployed. In the next few years, we could suffer such a calamity, yet it is not clear from the Flood Re proposal what the Government would bring to the party. It is unrealistic to think the insurance industry could cover the costs of such a calamitous event. The Government have been sending signals about what they might do, but they have not been much more than signals. We would like a bit more than that.

It is proposed that Flood Re be based on council tax bands. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury, the former Minister, that we do not want to unpick this, but I would like it to go a bit further. The measure is a sort of rating by proxy, not risk, but band H properties have been excluded, which is something that the all-party group is concerned about. As he said, the reason for the exclusion is that we do not want subsidies for the rich, but I wonder whether that has been thought through. My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) will be able to remind the House, as I can, of the council tax revaluation in Wales. Our top band is no longer H, but I. Band H properties are not occupied by millionaires, yet would not be covered by this proposal. Has that been taken into account?

The reason we do not want band H properties excluded is that historically all bands have been based on valuations of no relevance today. At some point, there is likely to be a revaluation, and who is to say that new bands will not be added, as happened in Wales? For that reason, it would be much better not to exclude band H properties. Against the claim that it would help the wealthy, I would simply say that the wealthiest occupiers probably use brokers to arrange their insurance. It is the people who cannot do that—people in what I would term “middle class-ish” properties—who might find themselves in difficulty. I make that case on behalf of not one political party, but the all-party group, and I urge the Government to reconsider.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North drew our attention to the distinct position of properties built after 2009. Yet again, I share that concern. That year was chosen because it was when the statement of principles was renewed, and the view, therefore, was, “Well, everyone knew that from that year onwards they would be excluded, so let’s not have them covered,” but we know that there is already much better mapping data. I would like us to make use of the mapping data, rather than simply not covering post-2009 properties.

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point. Should we not be ensuring that we do not build new properties in flood risk areas?

[Jonathan Evans]

That is a much better proposition than telling someone in a property built in 2010, “Flood Re is not for you.” If it is to be a solution to the difficulties of insurance, as many properties as possible should be covered. That includes what are termed “genuinely uninsurable” properties. They are excluded as well, yet they might be occupied or habitable properties with a council tax rating. Why are we not to include them? In my judgment, their number is not so considerable as to make the scheme impossible to operate. As the Minister knows, the all-party group made that representation to him during the consultation, and we hope he will take it on board as he considers his amendments in Committee.

I already know of one area where the Minister has accepted our recommendation. We suggested giving regulatory responsibility to the Financial Conduct Authority, and that is now in the Bill. The all-party group welcomes that inclusion, but hopes that the Minister will give further consideration to the other points we have made in support of what in our judgment is a proper solution to a difficulty that has taken too long to resolve.

Flood Insurance

Jonathan Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I begin by drawing attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and to my chairmanship of the all-party group on insurance and financial services. It is in that context that I think it is helpful to share with the House some of the observations that have been made by the insurance press about the discussions with the Government over recent years, which Post magazine has described as “negotiations to nowhere”.

It is astounding that it was in 2008 that the insurance industry made it clear that it would be withdrawing from the statement of principles. May I make it absolutely clear that it is important that it should do so, because many of the individual cases that Members have drawn attention to here are not covered by the statement of principles? They are not in this jeopardy because of the expiry of the statement of principles; the statement of principles does not have an “all circumstances” provision. That is why it is necessary to address the matter.

In 2008 I was in the European Parliament, and I was surprised to see that no progress had been made by the time I came here in 2010. I am astounded, frankly, that here we are in 2013, barely weeks away from the statement of principles ending, and still there is no progress to announce. It is not as though we have not dealt with these issues before. The insurer of last resort is, in fact, the Government. They took on that role in relation to “Pool Re”, when we needed to create terrorism insurance, and it was done in a matter of weeks. The Lloyds-Equitas debacle, which I had ministerial responsibility for resolving, was resolved within 12 months. Following 9/11, no insurance was available to the aviation industry in this country, and that matter was resolved by Government within a matter of days. Yet here we are, years and years later, with no progress to announce.

I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) for securing this debate and for his speech. He has called for good faith on the part of the insurance industry and for a Government contribution. That has also been said by other Members and in The Times leader to which reference has been made.

On good faith in the insurance industry, the all-party group on insurance and financial services has held three meetings since the election specifically on these issues. People have attended from the Association of British Insurers, on every occasion, from the British Insurance Brokers Association, on every occasion, and from the National Flood Forum. People from Aon, from Guy Carpenter and from Marsh have outlined the range of proposals that they have been making to Government. In an all-party group meeting on 12 October, Aon raised for the first time a variation on the “Flood Re” proposal, but we do not know what the Government’s response has been. In November, there was a bit of a spat when the ABI thought that the Government were not going to make any contribution. In response, it was claimed that it was nonsense to say that there was an impasse. Yet here we are, approaching the Easter break, and we still seem to have an impasse.

I do not blame the Minister. He attended a flood summit back in 2010, and he absolutely understands all the issues. However, I wonder to what extent his hands are tied elsewhere, perhaps not so much by the change in Secretary of State but by the involvement of the Cabinet Office in some aspects of these discussions. It is said that the Government may have been spooked by the original discussions, which had been going constructively, when they looked at the overall cost of flooding. However, that is not good enough. We have heard it suggested that there could be an extension of the statement of principles, but that is a voluntary agreement with the industry, and it is not going to happen; we can rule it out. The reality is that we will either see a return to the free market or the Government will have to get their act together, and soon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate. I, too, thank my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) for securing it and the Backbench Business Committee for holding it.

Flooding has been a particular problem in the past year throughout my constituency. Tiverton, Cullompton, Seaton, Axminster and Uplyme have all been affected by flooding and Feniton has been flooded several times. We need to ensure that my constituents and people across the country get flood insurance that they can afford.

I have a great deal of respect for my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), but he speaks, naturally enough, on behalf of the insurance industry. It is a wonderful industry, but it is not terribly charitable. It is there to make a profit. There is nothing wrong with profit, but we must not set up a system that puts a levy on all insurance payers in order to pay for those in flood-risk areas.

[Jonathan Evans]

I do not want my hon. Friend to miss the fact that the “Flood Re” scheme, about which everybody has spoken, is a not-for-profit scheme. It is important that everybody recognises that.

[Neil Parish]

I thank my hon. Friend for correcting me about that being a not-for-profit scheme, but that was not the point I was making.

My point is that when we levy all insurance payers to build up a fund that takes the risk of properties in high-risk areas away from the insurance companies, we should not be too generous because insurance companies are all about taking risk. That is what they are in business for. They should therefore be able to take their fair share of risk. I want to ensure that the insurance companies step up to the plate, but also that the Government help those who, in their areas, cannot get flood insurance under a private scheme on the free market. That is the balance that must be struck.

Seagulls (Coastal Towns)

Jonathan Evans Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Peter Aldous]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s drawing that fact to my attention, as it illustrates the number of environmental issues that arise. Seagulls are indiscriminate defecators, with the ability to expel significant quantities of runny faeces on the wing. The consequences are most unpleasant for residents in their gardens and for anyone else out and about in the open. Householders cannot hang out their washing, and windows, cars and garden furniture are continually fouled and have to be cleaned. One household I know has stopped holding their annual family barbecue. Relaxing in the garden is no longer possible, while soiled clothes, sheets and towels have to be thrown away. There is an additional burden on local authorities’ cleaning duties. Noise nuisance is also a factor. Gulls have a distinctive, prolonged, piercing and very loud laughing call. For many people, a good night’s sleep is a thing of the past.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising the issue. He has mentioned some places in England, but even Cardiff in Wales has a massive problem. Because of the noise factor mentioned by my hon. Friend, my constituent, Mr Paul Harvey, has started a campaign in Wales on the issue, but the council tells us that national legislation is needed and that there is none that can be used at the moment.

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point, and I will be coming to that subject. He is correct; at the moment, nuisance as such is not something that enables one to take appropriate measures. It might be appropriate to change the law, and I will come to that point.

As I said, gulls make a distinctive, piercing sound, and in certain areas, people find that they can no longer keep their windows open on warm summer nights. During the breeding season, nesting birds have a tendency to dive-bomb people they perceive as a threat to their nests or offspring. That can be extremely alarming for the elderly and the young. In one incident, riggers putting up a TV aerial were attacked and had to return on another date to complete their work.